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Trying to understand... toys at the playground - Page 5

post #81 of 204
Yeah, okay, I give. No one did say that.
I just don't see what else my daughter could have done.
Also, I should add, that in my first example, the boy NEVER was ready to give the toy up. His mama "helped" him give it back.
I should also say that I don't see this kid as a bully.I'm quite fond of him. We play with them all the time. It's just the whole thing where he takes things and doesn't give them back until he's ready--that's a little frustrating for my dd. Actually, it's the mom's reaction that is frustrating but not so frustrating that we don't hang out with them.

Also, I never said the boy was a bully or was BAD for grabbing the toy. Of course that's a normal toddler behavior.
post #82 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by wende
But what if, even with the help of an adult, the grabber still refuses to give the toy back??? How long do we sit by and let our own child feel like his or her feelings are less important than the grabbers? Why should the child who's toy was taken have to compromise his or her toys simply because the grabber is unwilling to give the toy back? Why should the child who's toy was taken have to stifle his or her feelings so that another child might not be upset? That IS creating a bully/victim situation in where one child is being forced to set his or her own feelings aside so that the more agressive child gets what he or she wants. It's not fair to do that to children.
YEa thats my question

Deanna
post #83 of 204
Quote:
But what if, even with the help of an adult, the grabber still refuses to give the toy back??
I think the majority of people who responded would step in at this point and give the toy back.
post #84 of 204
Again, my daughter did ASK for the toy back. So since she did ASK and didn't get a result--what next?
The boy would not release the toy. Like I said, even the mother ran out of ideas and took the toy.
Yes, in a wonderful theory, the mother and would have helped the boy want to give the boy back my dd's toy. Life isn't theory.
post #85 of 204
Quote:
He was temporarily upset, but his lasting impression was the responsibility we have to other's feelings as well as our own.
This is an interesting "lesson" that I don't choose to impose on our son. I believe that he can observe and deduce the impact of his actions with my verbal acknowledgement and observatons of the other child's verbals and non-verbals. And that he can see me empathizing with the other child. But, I don't feel "ownership" or "responsibility" for other's emotions. I see that some actions of mine have impact in vary different degrees, depending upon the individual. But, I don't want my interactions *done to* our son to give the "impression" of responsibility to other's feelings.

The opportunities to learn empathy present themselves naturally, like when our son has been upset at having a toy taken, he experienced the correllation between action and impact. And he can deduce (without a lesson being imposed) that someone might feel sad when something is taken from him. Taking the toy from our son, and knowing that our son would probably feel "upset", seems to model inconsideration and disrespect for feelings that I AM aware that my child might have. This seems to be the opposite "lesson" than you are wanting to impart. And I would be concerned that our son would thus learn that mama does things that she is telling me not to do, and she that knows I will be upset, and is doing it to me anyway. IMO, that models doing things to them even when you know others will be upset. I prefer to facilitate our son's awareness of the impact of his actions, without imposing a "lesson". I trust that:

Quote:
Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.




Pat
post #86 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama2mygirl
I had a parent take a really really long time to give a toy back to my child. She waited and waited for her son to be ready. She did end up taking the toy from her son but it took Forever while my child was sobbing. Both my daughter and I were frustrated.
I kept trying to figure out what I would do the next time something like that happened. But it turns out my dd figured it out for herself.The next time the same boy took my daughter's toy, on a totally different day, his mom starting the whole letting him be ready to give it back and my dd just reached over and grabbed it back for herself. I was fine with that.
I would be fine with that too. I refuse to allwo my children to be bullied and teach them to stand up forthemselves politely but firmly if need be. Your dd gave the kids some time but enough already. She isn't dumb. She could see where this was going.
post #87 of 204
What does it say about me that I'm getting hot and sweaty and upset just reading this thread?

While I've encountered several situations where the opportunity was given for the taker to give back the toy - sometimes they just absolutely refuse to relinquish what they've snatched without permission.

Quote:
Taking the toy from our son, and knowing that our son would probably feel "upset", seems to model inconsideration and disrespect for feelings that I AM aware that my child might have. This seems to be the opposite "lesson" than you are wanting to impart.
I really do understand what you're saying here, however when dealing with two, three and four year olds - I don't see how applicable it is. Trying to model appropriate behaviour for our children is an admirable goal, but at the risk of injuring the self worth and confidence of a toddler or preschooler is not something that I personally am willing to do. By physically assisting my daughter (after other avenues, quickly, have not worked) shows her that her taking someone else's toy/possession is not going to be tolerated. That's *real* life...

We were also raised with two wrongs don't make a right, but again, my daughter will learn the importance of respecting someone else's physical property - and if she needs a little physical (but gentle) intervention from me, I'm more than willing to go there.

Quote:
The fact is that my inaction might be upsetting to the other child. That's unfortunate, but I will not pry something out of my child's hands to make someone else feel better.
Not sure why - but the last sentence in this quote just really upsets me and makes me feel very sad. So your child's need to work through a tantrum/misunderstanding is more important than the heartbroken/sobbing/misunderstanding of a child who has been wronged?

Again, I'm all for allowing/guiding/encouraging children to work it out - but I know for a fact that even with those things, my daughter would be pummeled and bullied (at this age especially) without help and assistance from myself.

Interesting conversation.
post #88 of 204
Hey, Lilyka, thanks!
post #89 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartmama
Child 1 is engrossed in digging sand tunnels with his shovel

Child 2 grabs the shovel and turns to his own corner to use it

Child 1 shrieks and starts to cry

Mom of Child 1 says "You can tell Child 2 "I was playing with that. Please give it back". Child 1 tearfully says this to child 2.

Child 2 says (getting upset and starting ot cry) "no, it's mine now!!".

Mom of child 2 says "Child 1 was using that shovel. Let's give it back. Then when he is done, you can ask for a turn". Child 2 shrieks and starts to cry "No, no, it's mine now!". Mom says gently "Child 1 was using the shovel. Can I help you give it back to Child 1?" Child 2 is inconsolable and will not budge.

Mom of child 2 gives the shovel back to child 1. Then she comforts her own child. Later when child 1 is playing with something else, mom of Child 2 helps him ask child 1 for a turn with the shovel.

.
that would be acceptable with everyone i hang out with.

with very small kids however we know the importance of supervising so chances are someone would be there intercept child 2's hand (as in our children are usually on our laps or within arms reach when toys are involved) before she ever got to the shovel. then child two would be given a chance to compose themselves (if nessecary) and instructed on ways to ask nicely for a shovel, wait thier turn etc and helped to do so.

that is only amoung my good friends though. if my child took something from a stranger I wuld give it back to the other child promptly and help my child work through it seperately. My friends are my partners in childrearing and have more patience with me and my child that I wopuld expect a stranger to. There children are parented similarly and know what to expect. the kids who don't know me don't know that they can trust me to get thier toy back. all they know of our family is that the short one is a snatcher. thats got to be hard for a kid. Fortunately I don't think this has ever happened (they aren't keen on strangers noticing them and it is hard to keep a low profile when your snatching toys but with friends and family . . who different story)
post #90 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartmama

Two 3 year olds are playing.

Child 1 is engrossed in digging sand tunnels with his shovel

Child 2 grabs the shovel and turns to his own corner to use it

Child 1 shrieks and starts to cry

Mom of Child 1 says "You can tell Child 2 "I was playing with that. Please give it back". Child 1 tearfully says this to child 2.

Child 2 says (getting upset and starting ot cry) "no, it's mine now!!".

Mom of child 2 says "Child 1 was using that shovel. Let's give it back. Then when he is done, you can ask for a turn". Child 2 shrieks and starts to cry "No, no, it's mine now!". Mom says gently "Child 1 was using the shovel. Can I help you give it back to Child 1?" Child 2 is inconsolable and will not budge.

Mom of child 2 gives the shovel back to child 1. Then she comforts her own child. Later when child 1 is playing with something else, mom of Child 2 helps him ask child 1 for a turn with the shovel.
In my perfect world , here's what would happen-

Two 3 year olds are playing.

Child 1 is engrossed in digging sand tunnels with his shovel

Child 2 grabs the shovel and turns to his own corner to use it

Child 1 shrieks and starts to cry

Caregiver comes over to Child 1 and asks if they are upset because Child 2 took the shovel they were using to dig with.

Child 1 says yes or nodds.

Caregiver asks Child 1 if they will come over to Child 2 with them to try to find a solution to the problem. Together, then Caregiver explains the problem, that Child 1 is upset about the shovel being grabbed and still wants to use it, and Child 2 must have wanted to use it too. Problem solving ensues. Likely at this young age Caregiver presents several possible solutions to the problem, such as-

1. Child 1 and Child 2 agree to take turns and a specified time both are okay with waiting on is agreed upon.

2. Caregiver can show both children alternative ways to dig, with their hands, with small sticks, etc. so that both children can play at digging even though there is only one shovel.

3. One or both children could agree to an alternate activity if there is only one shovel. Would one or both of you rather do something else? We can blow bubbles, toss this ball, play tag, run in circles, etc etc.

Then Caregiver can listen for Child 1 and Child 2 to have ideas or talk about the suggestions made by the Caregiver and hopefully come to a solution to the problem that is okay with both of them.


Sometimes I am better at helping my children through conflict than others, and at 4 and 6, they handle most of their conflicts between themselves. Being in a public setting with strangers would for sure put a spin on things, and if it was someone else's property in question who was not an actual friend that would put a spin on it too. I would still hope to be able to find a way to help them solve the conflict without physical force in my perfect world .
post #91 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoesmummy
Not sure why - but the last sentence in this quote just really upsets me and makes me feel very sad. So your child's need to work through a tantrum/misunderstanding is more important than the heartbroken/sobbing/misunderstanding of a child who has been wronged?
Neither child's feelings are more important than the other. But both children's feelings are important. The heartbroken/sobbing/misunderstanding of a child who has been wronged is a fact of life. I don't mean that to sound harsh, but it happens. It is our role as parents to HELP children work through those emotions and learn how to solve problems.
post #92 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartmama
When it comes to friends and family, I think "negotiating" property is a lifelong skill. Friends who borrow clothes without asking, siblings who take your car without permission, neighbors who help themselves to lawn equipment in your yard. Real life isn't black and white. There is real skill in learning to assert your expectations without losing sight of the relationship involved.

To me the "negotiating" here would be the child saying "I was playing with that. Please give it back". At that point if the other child won't, I would intervene and spend at most a minute helping the child give the toy back...then giving it back for them if they couldn't.
If my friends were stealing from me they'd not be my friends any longer. If my sibling took my car without asking...the first time I'd be ticked...the second time I'd report it stolen. Same with the neighbor that stole my property, I'd call the police. And the police wouldn't try to talk them into returning it. I try to help my children learn about real life. I do it in as gentle a way as possible ofcourse. But I have yet to meet someone that wouldn't be irate in the situations mentioned above.
post #93 of 204
It's also our role as a parent to make sure that our children understand that the feelings of others matter just as much as our own and by not insisting that the toy be given back while a child is sitting there sobbing because of the actions of YOUR child, you are neglecting to teach that.
post #94 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by abac
Neither child's feelings are more important than the other. But both children's feelings are important. The heartbroken/sobbing/misunderstanding of a child who has been wronged is a fact of life. I don't mean that to sound harsh, but it happens. It is our role as parents to HELP children work through those emotions and learn how to solve problems.
I agree with this. And to the pps who said that there is no need for the child whose toy has been snatched to learn anything, I would argue that there is a very important lesson.

I don't think that you are invalidating your own child's feelings by not solving the problem for them. You can empathize with them, help them wait, distract them, etc.

But throughout their lives, people will treat them poorly. People will be rude to them, cut them off in traffic, try to take advantage of them, and steal things from them, sometimes intentionally, sometimes not. I think developing a healthy way of processing these actions, without seeking revenge or blaming oneself, is a VERY important lesson to learn.
post #95 of 204
BS

I am NOT going to sit by and watch my child angry and upset because he was wronged and the other adult in the situation is taking 15 minutes to help make it right. ESPECIALLY, if the end result is still going to be the same. The child is having a stubborn moment, as they all do, and refusing still 15 minutes later to cooperate so the parent has to remove the toy from his hands to give it back to my child. So what? My child is upset and crying for 15 minutes for nothing? They are toddlers! Sometimes they can be distracted, sometimes they cannot. Sometimes they have one goal in mind and nothing in the world will deter them from that goal. If that goal happens to be "I'm going to stand here crying until that kid gives me my toy back" than I don't want it to take a 15 minute "lesson" to your child so that MINE may get HIS toy back. No, life isn't fair, but I don't want them learning that at 3 years old. It should be as fair as possible at 3 and not being allowed to retrieve a toy stolen from them by another person is NOT fair.
post #96 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by bright
I'm cautious with this, because while it is great when it works, sometimes letting them sort it out means the more assertive child gets their way while a less assertive child gets bullied.
Well in all fairness I live in a happy bubble with playdates. All the kids have known each other since just weeks old and are 2.5 now so many months of knowing personalities plays into it. The kids are really usually pretty respectful of one another. If something gets into a tug of war a mom will step in.
post #97 of 204
Having a 3 yo, I have been here many a time. I do not think a parent should grab the toy back in order to make things "right". Two wrongs.......a right does not make. What does that teach?

When my child has grabbed a toy from another child, it does not take 15 minutes of two children crying to work it out. When she was too little to understand any aspect of the situation, redirecting to another toy was the course of action we took. Once she was old enough to understand some aspects of the situation, we were able to bring in those parts and use them to help her resolve the situation. Now at 3, she has learned about possessions, taking turns, feelings, and negotiation and resolves these issues largely without the aid of adults. But had I snatched "stolen" toys out of her hands because I thought discussion or negotiation were too much effort, then I am guessing we would be in the 15 minute stand-off point now. My feeling on this is that if children are given resepct and trust to help negotiate these situations from the get-go, it does not come to a 15 minute stand-off.

And if I run across a child that has had things routinely grabbed from them, I am of a mind to give the benefit of the doubt, explain to dd that it might take some time for him to understand the things she does, and I would take the time to help them work it out, even if it took 15 minutes.

I guess we never know where the "other kid" is coming from. But I am not going to grab something back just to feel good about some sort of fairness. This is not something I want my child to learn (from me anyway).
post #98 of 204
I have 5 kids with 5 vastly different personalities. They range from one extreme to another. My oldest could speak extremely well by 18 months and had wonderful cognitive skills. She was able to understand and talk about her feelings at a very young age and was able to understand the feelings of others as well. It was quite easy to redirect her and explain the situation on both ends. However, my 3yo is totally different. His language skills are not what Kendra's were. He still speaks in broken sentences and while I do my best to explain the situation to him, I am also fully aware that he does not quite get what I'm saying and how to deal with what's going on without a lot of help. He cannot sit there for 15 minutes waiting for his toy patiently while you explain to your child why they should be giving it back. This works in the opposite direction as well. If he took a toy from your child, he would be very insistent that it was his and he would not give it back. It would be unfair of me to have a 15 minute conversation with him about why he should give it back because in the end he would still disagree and insist on keeping it. The end result would be me removing the toy from his hands and handing it back to your child with an explanation as to why I did it. I am not saying you should "snatch" the toy violently from your childs hand, but I am saying that there are times when a 3yo just will NOT give it up and it will be up to the parents to intervene and yes, remove the toy from your childs hand.
post #99 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by moondiapers
If my friends were stealing from me they'd not be my friends any longer. If my sibling took my car without asking...the first time I'd be ticked...the second time I'd report it stolen. Same with the neighbor that stole my property, I'd call the police. And the police wouldn't try to talk them into returning it. I try to help my children learn about real life. I do it in as gentle a way as possible ofcourse. But I have yet to meet someone that wouldn't be irate in the situations mentioned above.
HA! thats exactly what I was thinking. I was also wondering if someone who had problems with poeple constantly taking thier stuff has some sort of problem standing up for themselves and people knew them to be a push over.this is actually one of the reasons I would be really concerned about leaving the victimized child to stand there sobbing while the snatching child got negotiated with. it sorta sends the mesege that if someone takes something of yours (or if they are hurting you) what can you do but stand there and hope you can talk them out of it or talk them into changing thier mind . . .

if I looked over and saw my neighbor mowing his lawn with my lawn mower I wouldn't go negotiate to get it back and stand in thier yard fretting and wasting time trying to convince them to give it back. I would ank one time and then call the police. They stole my lawn mower, they stole my gas. If my sibling took my car without asking the first time I would be ticked. and they would know it. I may well snatch it back while they were in wherever they were (leaving them to find thier own way back) the second time I would call the police. You don't take things that don't belong to you. period. and I have never known anyone (family included) who thought "borrowing" stuff without permission (aka stealing) was cool. but then if I did I would put an end to thier borrowing very very quickly. I have no problem sharing but taking my things without asking isn't even a little bit of sharing. it is an intrusive violation, it is theft.
post #100 of 204
Quote:
I have 5 kids with 5 vastly different personalities. They range from one extreme to another. My oldest could speak extremely well by 18 months and had wonderful cognitive skills. She was able to understand and talk about her feelings at a very young age and was able to understand the feelings of others as well. It was quite easy to redirect her and explain the situation on both ends. However, my 3yo is totally different. His language skills are not what Kendra's were. He still speaks in broken sentences and while I do my best to explain the situation to him, I am also fully aware that he does not quite get what I'm saying and how to deal with what's going on without a lot of help. He cannot sit there for 15 minutes waiting for his toy patiently while you explain to your child why they should be giving it back. This works in the opposite direction as well. If he took a toy from your child, he would be very insistent that it was his and he would not give it back. It would be unfair of me to have a 15 minute conversation with him about why he should give it back because in the end he would still disagree and insist on keeping it. The end result would be me removing the toy from his hands and handing it back to your child with an explanation as to why I did it. I am not saying you should "snatch" the toy violently from your childs hand, but I am saying that there are times when a 3yo just will NOT give it up and it will be up to the parents to intervene and yes, remove the toy from your childs hand.
I think many of the parents of a child like your son can relate to this post.
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