Public school rant...(long)

[~Demeter~]

(not sure if this is the right place to post this :S)

My oldest DS started 5th grade this year. He has had a long rough road to being considered, to himself, successful in school. He is in no means hard on himself but has a had a rough go of things. (very long story to that) Anyway to get to my point.. They took their first spelling test last Friday. He received a B on it, which is a terrific grade considering the difficulty my son has spelling. He studied hard during the week for the test and was quite pleased with himself. (yay go Ky!) On Friday I glanced at his test and told him he did a wonderful job and on Saturday as I sat down to grab a bite to eat I really looked at his test. Of the 3 words he spelled "wrong" two were actually spelled correctly. O_o I was baffled. I discussed it with my son and he said the kids in his class grade each others papers. I thought well maybe there was a mistake and decided to write to his teacher to point it out. She (instead of writing back or calling me) told my son that he was graded on his penmanship as well. : Umm.. last I checked this was a SPELLING test not penmanship. Needless to say I wrote her another letter explaining why I felt she was wrong and how I felt she needed to rectify the error she made on my son's grade. It would have been an A-.. She wrote me back saying essentially she didn't give a crap what I thought and added in she was sure his grades would improve over time. I am going in to speak with the principal tomorrow morning. I guess my question is do you think I am being obnoxious by forcing the issue? What would you do in a situation like this? I showed his test to a couple other mamas I speak with regularly and they agreed that his letters were legible and that he shouldn't have been marked off for them. I actually really like the school my boys are in, they have had wonderful experiences for the most part (a couple disasters averted by my ever watchful eye) and they love going and I can't afford to send them elsewhere. Feedback please...


ETA: I spoke with the principal this morning and he very much agreed with me. He looked over everything I had to show him (the test, the letter I wrote the teacher, and the response from the teacher) and definitely saw things from my point of view. He said he would discuss this with the teacher and get back to me on it. Now if the principal could look at the test and say yes those words ARE spelled correctly and he SHOULD NOT have been marked wrong on them, I feel like I made my point known. Now I just have to wait to see what happens. Thankyou all for your input and advice.

[aniT]

Honestly, with that type of attitude this early in the school year I would ask for another teacher. Unfortunately, in my experience, public schools don't always care to work with the parents and have a my way or the highway attitude.

As far as the test goes, it is a spelling test. If the teacher marks a word wrong that is actually spelled correctly your child may well end up spelling that word wrong for the rest of his life. I am a horrible speller and many words that I actually remember to spell now are because I missed them before. KWIM?

And if other students are grading the test, how do they know to grade penmanship? Who are they to decide? : It sounds to me like the teacher didnt look over the tests after the students graded them and is just being defensive now instead of admitting her mistake.

[~Demeter~]

Originally Posted by aniT

Honestly, with that type of attitude this early in the school year I would ask for another teacher. Unfortunately, in my experience, public schools don't always care to work with the parents and have a my way or the highway attitude.

As far as the test goes, it is a spelling test. If the teacher marks a word wrong that is actually spelled correctly your child may well end up spelling that word wrong for the rest of his life. I am a horrible speller and many words that I actually remember to spell now are because I missed them before. KWIM?

And if other students are grading the test, how do they know to grade penmanship? Who are they to decide? : It sounds to me like the teacher didnt look over the tests after the students graded them and is just being defensive now instead of admitting her mistake.

I actually requested a different teacher for him a couple of years ago because the teacher he had was awful. He lost most of first grade because of a crappy school and an even crappier teacher. I find this school is more involved in general with the kids and the principal is actually willing to listen to my feelings. I make it very known if I am unhappy with something and this is because all I have been through with my son.

Those were my thoughts exactly on the spelling test. He is a terrible speller (did he really come from me??!) and I am like the human dictionary (typos aside) so spelling has been a HUGE obstacle for him. I wanted to encourage his studying and feel like this in essence is a huge blow to his self-esteem. Although he was willing to accept his grade I am NOT.

Again my thoughts exactly on the grading aspect. There were some words where the "a" wasn't closed properly but were still marked as correct and each of them were clearly legible. Yet this is the reason why at least one of the words was marked wrong. I feel because this is her last year teaching she probably wanted an easy going class. Little did she know she would have me as a parent.

[mata]

Originally Posted by Mumof3Nic

I guess my question is do you think I am being obnoxious by forcing the issue? What would you do in a situation like this?

absolutely not, you're not being obnoxious. I'd pursue it until it was corrected also. And worst case scenario-it doesn't get corrected, I'd use it as an example to boost ds's self esteem, by reminding him how he feels about his performance is what matters, and that teachers can be incorrect or unfair.

[2crazykids]

I taught 5th grade for a few years before having babes...I am having a real hard time understanding why the teacher won't change his grade or how on earth she would even count a test that students corrected! That's totally asinine!! Sounds like she may have an issue other than fairness on this test...Try to arrange a time with her to meet so that you can clear the air and set a more positive tone for the year.

I would not vent about or demean the teacher in any way in front of your child. They need to know that you support her and her program from top to bottom (even though you may not necessarily but you will work with her, right?). If your child hears your vents or sees your body language then he's now on the defensive too, it's you all against her, KWIM?

[~Demeter~]

Originally Posted by mata

absolutely not, you're not being obnoxious. I'd pursue it until it was corrected also. And worst case scenario-it doesn't get corrected, I'd use it as an example to boost ds's self esteem, by reminding him how he feels about his performance is what matters, and that teachers can be incorrect or unfair.

Thankyou I appreciate your thoughts. That is exactly what we have been trying to do with him as well.. trying to boost him up because we want him to move forward and not backward. Although like I said he was willing to accept the lower grade. I feel I am his defender and now that I started it I can't let it go. He has been through so much and I would hate to destroy the good feelings he has about learning.

[Oh the Irony]

you should follow up.

have you ever had him evaluated for learning disabilities? if he does, he could possibly get accomodations for his handwriting. or OT to help him write better.

i'm not really fond of other students grading papers. i guess because my son has LDs and it is none of the other kid's business how he does his work.

and the student grading certainly didn't mark off for handwriting. also bogus not to tell kids prior to the test that they are also being graded on handwriting. i think she's a weasel.

you go mama.

[aniT]

Originally Posted by 2crazykids

I would not vent about or demean the teacher in any way in front of your child. They need to know that you support her and her program from top to bottom (even though you may not necessarily but you will work with her, right?). If your child hears your vents or sees your body language then he's now on the defensive too, it's you all against her, KWIM?

Not the OP but:

Why would I let my child know that I support the teacher top to bottom when I believe the teacher is 100% wrong?

I refuse to work with teachers who takes lunch recess away from a 6 year old because they forgot to bring their homework to school.

I refuse to work with a teacher that tells me and my DH one thing on two different occasions then turns around and does something completely different and denies he ever said it. : (crossing my fingers DD does NOT have this guy for math this year.)

My kids have had some wonderful teachers and some truly awful ones. If the teacher is wrong the teacher is wrong and I am not going to let my kids suffer because of it.

To the OP. I am glad you have an administrator that is willing to work with you. When I tried to get my daughter's teacher changed I was told in no uncertain terms that my daughter was a liar and if I didn't like the way they did things I should go elsewhere. The principal thought she could intimidate me! You should have seen her face when I informed her the very next day that my daughter would be switching schools by on Monday!

[~Demeter~]

Originally Posted by 2crazykids

I taught 5th grade for a few years before having babes...I am having a real hard time understanding why the teacher won't change his grade or how on earth she would even count a test that students corrected! That's totally asinine!! Sounds like she may have an issue other than fairness on this test...Try to arrange a time with her to meet so that you can clear the air and set a more positive tone for the year.

I would not vent about or demean the teacher in any way in front of your child. They need to know that you support her and her program from top to bottom (even though you may not necessarily but you will work with her, right?). If your child hears your vents or sees your body language then he's now on the defensive too, it's you all against her, KWIM?

I have been trying not to vent about the teacher in front of him. I do support the teacher and the school as well but I also want him to know that he did get those answers right. I have not said anything negative about her to him but I have told him not to let her discuss this sort of thing with him. To tell her that my mom said to please contact her. She responded to him the first letter and I felt that was uncalled for. I am the one concerned not him. To me it almost seems like she thinks he is the one complaining and I am backing him when that is far from the truth. I hope to get a better feel for her once we have open house or preferably tomorrow morning when I go in to speak with the principal about this. As a former teacher would you find a parent like me hard to work with? I would have to say I am rather spoiled all of his previous teachers (aside from 1st grade which IS the most important year) and I have had a rather close relationship. He has had many struggles with school in general and finally last year everything seem to click with him. (we held him back the year before) I would hate to undo the past 4 yrs over something so silly as a spelling test. I am also concerned she will take out her issues on my son and find that unacceptable. (yes I have had this happen before as well) Is it unusual to count a test that students corrected? I find it different that she would have them correct it but not go over them individually to make sure they were corrected properly. I am really trying to understand her logic but it has failed me...

[nancyw]

just my thought, but you can take or leave (obviously!! )..

when a child is very busy concentrating on one aspect of writing (ie-spelling) then it is very hard to concentrate on another (especially a more tedious aspect--ie-penmanship) without losing something in the process.

same as when a child free writes or does stream of consciousness writing,....
if you really really want them to uncover and get their thoughts out, (to show their best in one particular area) then you just have to let them 'nevermind' spelling, penmanship, grammar, etc. etc.

children are so new to this writing process. dont slow them down and stunt them by forcing them to pay attention to EVERY thing at ONCE, each and every time.

instead of a really wonderful 'piece' of writing.....you just might get a nicely 'penned,' well structured, correctly spelled, three-to-five word sentence.

there. well,....that was just my thought. if you like it, you can put it under your hat and take it with you when you speak with the principal! (which I definitely think you should do)

I dont think you're being obnoxious at all. good luck!!


Edited to correct a spelling mistake--yikes!! (don't I feel silly...)

[~Demeter~]

Originally Posted by aniT

To the OP. I am glad you have an administrator that is willing to work with you. When I tried to get my daughter's teacher changed I was told in no uncertain terms that my daughter was a liar and if I didn't like the way they did things I should go elsewhere. The principal thought she could intimidate me! You should have seen her face when I informed her the very next day that my daughter would be switching schools by on Monday!

I made a big fuss the first year my son was in this school.. his teacher took him aside (we had just moved here) after class and asked him if he had ever been in any "special" classes. To a 9yr old "special" means fun, fantastic, different! He replied yes he had and she demeaned him and said of course you have. This in turn made my son feel uncomfortable. She wouldn't let him leave to get on the bus and kept questioning him. He was terrified he was going to miss the bus. This was their first day of school. : How she could make a judgement like that about him is beyond me and the fact that she was unsensitive to his feelings in general really pissed me off! The very next day I brought all of his tests in to the school and explained his history first with the principal and then with her. While he has issues learning the "conventional" way and he had some issues with responsibility his IQ and many of the other tests were high for a child his age. Within the week he was removed from her class because each day he came home from school with a different story about her. I am hoping this doesn't turn into a situation like that. I am hoping that this teacher will see my reasoning. I don't expect her to change the way she teaches her class or grades her papers but I do expect her to accept responsibility if someone calls her on an honest mistake. KWIM? Ever since I have made myself known as the "vocal" parent the school has tried to accomodate my feelings about things. In general, for a public school, this one rates pretty high in terms of teacher, parent, principal involvement. I think that is very important.

[~Demeter~]

Originally Posted by nancyw

just my thought, but you can take or leave (obviously!! )..

when a child is very busy concentrating on one aspect of writing (ie-spelling) then it is very hard to concentrate on another (especially a more tedious aspect--ie-penmanship) without losing something in the process.

same as when a child free writes or does stream of consciousness writing,....
if you really really want them to uncover and get their thoughts out, (to show their best in one particular area) then you just have to let them 'nevermind' spelling, penmanship, grammar, etc. etc.

children are so new to this writing process. dont slow them down and stunt them by forcing them to pay attention to EVERY thing at ONCE, each and every time.

instead of a really wonderful 'piece' of writing.....you just might get a nicely 'penned,' well structured, correctly spelled, three-to-five word sentence.

there. well,....that was just my thought. if you like it, you can put it under your hat and take it with you when you speak with the principal! (which I definitely think you should do)

I dont think your being obnoxious at all. good luck!!

WOOHOO! This is exactly the sort of argument I have been looking for!! (takes notes) I will definitely be using this when I speak with him tomorrow. Would you like to come with me and hold my hand too??

[~Demeter~]

Originally Posted by wolfmama

you should follow up.

have you ever had him evaluated for learning disabilities? if he does, he could possibly get accomodations for his handwriting. or OT to help him write better.

i'm not really fond of other students grading papers. i guess because my son has LDs and it is none of the other kid's business how he does his work.

and the student grading certainly didn't mark off for handwriting. also bogus not to tell kids prior to the test that they are also being graded on handwriting. i think she's a weasel.

you go mama.

Yes I have had him tested for LD back in 3rd grade because he had a very hard time reading and the like. They found he did not have any LD and that he was actually quite advanced in some areas. They wanted him tested for ADD or ADHD. Which I complied with because I wanted to cover all bases while he was young. He was dx'd ADHD and I even chose to medicate for a year. I felt I had tried everything else and that was my last resort. He didn't do much better on the meds so I took him off. He was held back the year he went off the meds but the next year he even made the honor roll. He was soooo pleased with himself. He said to me look mama I did it all without meds and guess what! I feel great. It feels wonderful to accomplish something like this. Out of the mouth of babes.. His handwriting has made alot of improvement over the past 2 yrs. His test was legible and as for perfect penmanship I feel it is almost unnecessary anymore.. how many people do you know handwrite things anymore?? We use computers and printers for that sort of thing. KWIM? He wants to be a doctor... what doctor do you know has legible handwriting??

[nancyw]

Originally Posted by Mumof3Nic

WOOHOO! This is exactly the sort of argument I have been looking for!! (takes notes) I will definitely be using this when I speak with him tomorrow. Would you like to come with me and hold my hand too??

Hi Mumof3Nic,
glad that helped!!
You won't need anyone there--you will do wonderful! (plus it might be tricky, since Im in VT tomorrow at that time, ...and at most times )
Just stay calm and focused, calm and focused, ....and if you get flustered, just think of your DS, smiling at you and feeling well loved and respected because you are standing up for him and believing in him---no matter the ultimate outcome.

(really, when you think about it, this kind of thing is so deeply meaningful to our children. they notice. they really do; and it will not be for nothing. I dont want to say 'dont worry about the outcome,' but truly, even if it doesnt have an impact on the teacher, it will still have an impact on your DS.)

[~Demeter~]

Originally Posted by nancyw

Hi Mumof3Nic,
glad that helped!!
You won't need anyone there--you will do wonderful! (plus it might be tricky, since Im in VT tomorrow at that time, ...and at most times )
Just stay calm and focused, calm and focused, ....and if you get flustered, just think of your DS, smiling at you and feeling well loved and respected because you are standing up for him and believing in him---no matter the ultimate outcome.

(really, when you think about it, this kind of thing is so deeply meaningful to our children. they notice. they really do; and it will not be for nothing. I dont want to say 'dont worry about the outcome,' but truly, even if it doesnt have an impact on the teacher, it will still have an impact on your DS.)

Funny thing I get soooo nervous about these situations beforehand but when I am actually there and involved I am fine. I know what is most important is that Ky feels I am there for him, to stand up for him, to be his advocate because nobody else will. Thankyou again for your lovely words of wisdom. They truly mean alot to me right now.

[lisalou]

I still suffer from bad handwriting and did throughout the early years of elementary school. But it was always a separate thing in terms of grades never mixed in with other things. I personally think the teacher was irresponsible not to correct mistakes students may have made in grading the tests and adjusting grades properly. My cousin had the opposite problem. She showed me a paper she had gotten an A++ on and as I read through it there were all sorts of spelling mistakes. Not that the teacher couldn't have given her an A for content but at least let her know she's spelled words wrong. or right in your son's case. To be fair to the teacher a little bit maybe she did tell her class that handwriting would be part of the grade. But there's nothing wrong with you wanting to make sure your ds gets credit for work he did do correctly.

[trishadiva]

Hi! I just want to offer words of support... I am a public school teacher myself and believe me when I say there are certainly some bad apples in the bunch!

I believe every parent should be an advocate for their child and I don't think you're wrong in pursuing this matter.

In education, just as in other areas of life, it's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease... as long as you are calm, focused, straightforward and willing to work with the school and the teacher you can get a LOT accomplished. I wish you the best of luck!

[~Demeter~]

Originally Posted by lisalou

To be fair to the teacher a little bit maybe she did tell her class that handwriting would be part of the grade. But there's nothing wrong with you wanting to make sure your ds gets credit for work he did do correctly.

According to my DS he was not informed until after I pointed out that there was an error in his grade, that they were marked on handwriting. If that had been the case I could probably understand but then again it shouldn't have been the students grading the tests it should have been the teacher because it wouldn't leave handwriting up for interpretation by 30 different kids. YKWIM?

[~Demeter~]

Originally Posted by trishadiva

Hi! I just want to offer words of support... I am a public school teacher myself and believe me when I say there are certainly some bad apples in the bunch!

I believe every parent should be an advocate for their child and I don't think you're wrong in pursuing this matter.

In education, just as in other areas of life, it's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease... as long as you are calm, focused, straightforward and willing to work with the school and the teacher you can get a LOT accomplished. I wish you the best of luck!

I have learned this the hard way. My son has had a rough go of things in terms of school but has really strived hard to overcome those obstacles. I firmly believe that the school and teachers are not my "babysitter" for 6 hrs a day. It should be a partnership between the school and the parent and the child. I have worked just as hard as his teachers and himself to make sure he gets the best education possible! and will continue to do so for him and my other two. If only I knew then what I know now it is quite possible things would have been way different. You live and learn and make the best of what is handed to you.

[Sarahbunny]

Originally Posted by Mumof3Nic

It would have been an A-.. She wrote me back saying essentially she didn't give a crap what I thought and added in she was sure his grades would improve over time.

I don't have any advice, but first off, I think that is just a crappy attitude by the teacher. And second of all...that part I quoted made me laugh. She is sure his grades will improve? Well, I suppose that is depending on which other student is "grading" it, won't it?