or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Mom › Talk Amongst Ourselves › Spirituality › Religious Studies › Anyone want to discuss Warren Jeffs?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Anyone want to discuss Warren Jeffs? - Page 2

post #21 of 66
exactly pookel. It's not like this is a choice these girls are making. They are taught right out of the cradle that they get no say in their lives and that their only role is to make babies and submit to their husbands. "Keep sweet" is a saying that runs throughout the churches and in those communities, according to women who have gotten out and been interviewed by Dateline NBC, Discovery Channel, A&E, and other networks. Keep sweet means-submit at all costs, keep your mouth shut, and preserve the system.

Warren Jeffs specifically broke up already existing polygamist families to marry those wives to much older men. He sent many of the young men away because they were viewed as threats. There are wives who have gotten away only to be brought back, beaten, thrown in mental hospitals, etc. There are 12 y.o.'s being pledged in marriage to 60 year old men. It IS NOT A CHOICE.

(As for the pp who brought up the Duggars, it IS a choice for JimBob and Michelle. They were not raised that way. But I feel the same for their kids, especially the girls-they are being taught this is the only way to be-wives and mothers with big families-although not in the same class as the polygamists. I am suspicious of any religion/belief that teaches it is not okay to even question or find out for yourself what is right.)
post #22 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMariposa
So, Mr. Duggar is not a good dad since he has 16 children and could not possibly be a good father to that many? For that matter how does Mrs. Duggar do it?
I'm just saying we don't know that a man can't be a good father to a multitude of children. And we don't know what everday community life is like for them. They may hold the 'it takes a village' mentality.
Logic would suggest that 1 person could not properly nurture many children, however, then we are back to our cultural ideas and our own 'brainwashing' so to speak that suggest to us that many children is a problem, not a blessing to the man and that 1 man can not do the job of being a dad to more than X number of children.
I'm just throwing the thought out there...
Since Mr. Duggar and his brood live in just one household, and are building their own house with his sons together, I'm sure that he does spend quality time with his kids. In other words, he's with them a lot, and they do seem like a tight-knit clan.

Usually, in those kinds of polygamous families that we are discussing here, the households are set up so that each wife has a different household. They don't all live together. Some do, but then, it gets tricky when they are applying for welfare. The husband can't technically live with the wives who are applying for welfare since that would change the whole dynamic of what they are eligible for.

I don't think one man can be a good father to 30 kids in different households, nor do I think one man can be a good husband to 6 different women at the same time. That's my opinion.
post #23 of 66
Marrying off underage girls? Kicking out the young men? Marying people of ANY age against their will? Subjugation of women? NO!

But polygamy between consenting adults? Fine with me. I don't care how many spouses you have, or what gender they are, or who has sex with whom.
post #24 of 66
I don't really care if they practice polygamy, that is a personal choice, but what this cult practices is child abuse. They use emotional abuse by teaching about Hell, not educating the children so that they can further themselves, and basically make it so that these girls are dependant on the community for everything. THen they compoud the problem by marrying these girls off to old men (sexual abuse) getting them PG, and thus carrying on to future generations. By the time a girl is 20, she already has a couple of kids. WIth no education, how can she possibly support herself and her kids if she leaves? And how would she even leave with her kids? This community has it's own law enforcement! I have no doubt that most of the people in the community are so brainwashed they do not realize what they are doing. I think the old men are sick for even taking these young girls to wife. The fact that this community relies on gov. aid to financially support themselves is sickening.

And to the comment linking Mr. Dugger to these dads, I think you are missing the point. It is almost impossible for a normal person (one income family) to support a family of these proportions. I did see a polygamous family who did so, and that is fine, but these fathers are NOT doing that. They are intentionally having LARGE families and relying on our tax money to support their sexual and emotional abuse. Mr. Dugger is not doing that. He and his wife are supporting their family. I don't think he is being super-responsible by having as many children as he is, but since he is not using gov. money to do so, and the children are being taken care of, that's his business. His wife is also of age to decide if she wants another child. A 16 year old who is told she either has to marry a 60 year old man or suffer hell is in NO WAY equivilant to Mrs. Duggar.
post #25 of 66
Read the book, Under the Banner of Heaven. It will explain a lot about this community.
post #26 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by artgoddess
Read the book, Under the Banner of Heaven. It will explain a lot about this community.
I am currently reading that book and Predators, Prey , and Other Kinfolk: Growing Up in Polygamy (Dorothy Allred Solomon). Both are really interesting!

My thoughts on polygamy mirror Ann-Marita's above.
post #27 of 66
Am I the only one who thought that his wives can't possibly be getting much sexual satisfaction? I don't know if religion change human sexual desire but if they're all healthy then they can't possibly be getting enough. That's sexual oppression. Plus having babies one after another is hard on women's body and health. What if a woman is born into that group who has some health problem and can't have children? Wouldn't her life be worthless if that's all they're supposed to do?

Women and children have no say in things there. They're treated like properties. Maybe some people think it's just a religious thing. I personally think in today's world, in a modern country like US, having such oppressed women and children is a big shame.

I have no problem with polygamy if say Jeffs has 4 wives all married him as adults. They dated and were in love and the whole family lived together happily. That's not the case, though. He's just hoarding them, like any other corrupt leaders hoarding wealth. I wonder if he can even recognize which kid is his if they're playing on the street.
post #28 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poddi
Am I the only one who thought that his wives can't possibly be getting much sexual satisfaction? I don't know if religion change human sexual desire but if they're all healthy then they can't possibly be getting enough. That's sexual oppression. .
According to both books I am reading (cited above), sex within the FLDS faith is strictly for procreation. Intercourse during pregnancy is forbidden, as is masturbation. Women may control their own fertility by abstaining from sex--even for years between children. I think it is entirely possible that, despite many wives, even the husband may not be getting much sexual satisfaction!
post #29 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMariposa
So, Mr. Duggar is not a good dad since he has 16 children and could not possibly be a good father to that many? For that matter how does Mrs. Duggar do it?
I'm just saying we don't know that a man can't be a good father to a multitude of children. And we don't know what everday community life is like for them. They may hold the 'it takes a village' mentality.
Logic would suggest that 1 person could not properly nurture many children, however, then we are back to our cultural ideas and our own 'brainwashing' so to speak that suggest to us that many children is a problem, not a blessing to the man and that 1 man can not do the job of being a dad to more than X number of children.
I'm just throwing the thought out there...
No, you're missing their point, mr Duggar supports all of his children. He doesn't have them planning on using welfare.

But otherwise I agree with you. I don't think bigamy should be illegal as long as there is full disclosure and adult consent. I have no problem with them excercising their religious beliefs. Where it falls apart in the case of FLDS is teh abuse of children. Plain and simple.
post #30 of 66
I believe it is a basic human right for children to be raised in an atmosphere were they can grow up to be competent, productive adults in a "normal" environment, if that is what they want to do.

Personally, I think what goes on in terms of denying children an education in these high demand religions is a human rights abuse. In that sense, I would lump the Mormon fundamentalists with the Amish and other groups.

I'm not in favor of polygamy. I find it repellant. I think it is inheritantly too subject to abuse. That it would be attractive to any woman is completely beyond my comprehension, I'll readily admit. But what happens between consenting adults who have been raised in a non-coercive environment and are freely making the choice of how they want to live is not my concern.

These girls are treated like chattel. They are given as rewards to old men. They are forced to marry who the leader says they should marry, in some case men who are their own uncles or step fathers. That is horrible.
post #31 of 66
Mr. Duggar supports his family by parading them in the media like some freak show.

The polygamists in Nevada support their families by sponging off the welfare system.

They both suck off public money. The one does so by panhandling, the other abusing social services.
post #32 of 66
Edited because my opinion isn't about a 'general' issue, as requested, it's about one person.
post #33 of 66

....


Edited by lotusbeans - 3/16/14 at 1:32am
post #34 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMariposa
How is Colorado City, AZ different from Lancaster County PA? Both homeschool or use other means separate from society. Both are conservative in their dress. In both you will not find women who speak out publically, however I am totally unsure about to what extent the difference there is. Both do have people leave who are banned or shunned from returning. Both are cut off from the outside world and do not take to outsiders.
Welllll . . . I live in Lancaster County. I have an Amish neighbor on one side, a Mennonite neighbor on the other. They're actually not so separate from the "outside"/English world. Cell phones, generators, drivers who take them places in cars when they need to travel further than a buggy will take them . . . It's not what you think. And the women/children are free to be a part of the larger society. Each child has a period as a teenager when they are specifically given the task of deciding whether or not to join the church. If they don't join, it's no big deal -- they are only shunned if they join and THEN later, down the road, leave the church. And even then, for most Amish in this area, shunning just means you can't eat at the same table with someone who has left the church. Shunned former Amish still visit their families and friends.

No Amish person is cut off from the outside world. My Amish neighbor is my friend. We have conversations about all sorts of things, and if you didn't see how she was dressed you wouldn't know she was Amish. Amish women are not "subjects" for their husbands to order around. There is domestic abuse in the community, but no more than in the larger community.

Amish girls choose who they will marry, and usually don't marry until they are over 21. My dentist is an Amish woman who didn't want to marry and wanted to be a dentist, so her community sent her to dental school and she now servies all the Amish and locals (which is good, because without insurance, some Amish had never seen a dentist before).

I just don't think you can compare the two religions. Amish women choose to stay in their community.
post #35 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnmama
Women may control their own fertility by abstaining from sex--even for years between children.
I was watching a news report last night, and all the women who escaped claimed that Jeffs ordered them to have a baby each year.

The whole thing is just twisted. And, much as I dislike the Duggers, they're not ripping off the Welfare system, they're not marrying off minors, they don't have a huge infant mortality rate, and they're not muddying up the gene pool by forcing their kids to marry their cousins.
post #36 of 66
I am glad to see that Warren Jeffs has been arrested, and I sincerely hope that he is punsihed for the things he has done & has had ordered done in his name.


What he has got set up is an abusive, coersive, sociaty. Those girls have no say in the matter. Can anyone of US imagine how things would play out if , for instance, your husbands boss came to your home and told him that since he was not preforming the way he should at work, he needed to pack a bag and walka way from his home and family. Then he would be told that his family could not come with him, AND on top of that, his boss was replacing him with a new man Not Only at work, but to take his place in his family as well ??

There is no logic behind that. None. If you live in a society where you have such strict rules, and a leader who can effectively remake your entire family, ship your 15 year old son off in the middle of the night and drop himoff on the side of a desert highway, AND tell you to marry your 16 year old daughter off to her 45 year old Uncle, then, my friend, you are in a BAD place !!

Warren Jeffs deserves to pay for his crimes, but he is Not The Only One . There should be more men in that jailhouse as well. He may have pulled the big strings, but there were many other spiders on many other webs who deserve to be smashed as well.
post #37 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMariposa
..
My dh and I have not found any where in the Bible that states polygamy is wrong or a sin. The only statement in the Bible regarding the number of wives and a restriction (that we have found), is a reference to Deacons and Elders of a church can only have 1 wife. ...


... So basically I do not believe a man should be punished for taking more than 1 wife and I do not believe the states should have such laws on their books. ...
......
Sorry, maybe I'm reading this wrong but it sounds like you said that since the bible doesn't specifically prohibit polygamy, it should be legal. Is that correct?
post #38 of 66
General Mod Reminder:

Although it can be difficult, especially when discussing someone who has been arrested for crimes involving sexual abuse of a child, please refrain from name-calling in the thread.

The RS guidelines:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthia Mosher
The Religious Studies forum is for the academic discussion of religious and spiritual matters. This is where the tough questions may be asked. Please do not take it personally when someone questions your own particular faith or belief system or posts an interpretation or opinion that does not support your belief. Questions and their discussion are not to be construed as being judgemental, but should rather be seen as an honest plea for a deeper understanding.

The MDC User Agreement still applies and members posting here will be expected to uphold their discussion with the utmost respect and consideration for participants and readers. Personal attacks will not be tolerated nor comments that are negative of an individual or group. If you feel someone has broken any rules, please contact a moderator immediately rather than replying to the thread in question. Please refrain from sarcasm and insulting or denigrating remarks that might negate the purpose of this forum. Those who cannot abide by these guidelines will not be permitted to post here.
If you have called Jeffs a name, please edit. If you have received a PM about this thread already, please look over your other posts to see if they need editing. If you have described the lifestyle he leads in negative terms, please edit in a thoughtful way ~ you can express your opinion, but do not make broad, negative generalizations. I know this can be difficult, but if these guidelines cannot be followed, the thread will be pulled.

Thanks!!

Any questions or concerns, please PM me or another moderator.

Penelope
post #39 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penelope
General Mod Reminder:

Although it can be difficult, especially when discussing someone who has been arrested for crimes involving sexual abuse of a child, please refrain from name-calling in the thread.

The RS guidelines:


If you have called Jeffs a name, please edit. If you have received a PM about this thread already, please look over your other posts to see if they need editing. If you have described the lifestyle he leads in negative terms, please edit in a thoughtful way ~ you can express your opinion, but do not make broad, negative generalizations. I know this can be difficult, but if these guidelines cannot be followed, the thread will be pulled.

Thanks!!

Any questions or concerns, please PM me or another moderator.

Penelope
hmmm.....if jeffs is convicted of sexual abuse with a minor, can we then call him a pervert? not joking here. i am being serious.
post #40 of 66
No. No namecalling.

Thanks.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Religious Studies
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Mom › Talk Amongst Ourselves › Spirituality › Religious Studies › Anyone want to discuss Warren Jeffs?