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401K loan??????  

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
We have LOTS of unsecured debt
We can not get a consolidation loan for the full amt, Would it be wise to use 1/2 of our 401K as a loan to consolidate all unsec. debt
Our pmt would be less than what we are paying And we would be pd off in 5 yrs
however it cuts into our investments
but otherwise i'll be struggling for years...and really not getting anywhere
What to do:
Oh Dh will be 30 this yr so I think if we contribute 15% to 401K we will still have $$$ to retire on.
and I have a small 401K too
What to do?????????
post #2 of 28
We did this a couple of years ago. Once it got all set up, we realized we could pay it back a lot sooner than we originally thought. Essentially you are taking a loan from yourself.

For us, it solved our problems and now we are in a good place.
post #3 of 28
Borrowing from your 401(k) should be the absolute LAST choice. (I'm not including cashing it out because that should simply NEVER be a choice for repaying consumer debt.) Are you sure you've checked every other option?

Yes, you would be losing returns on your investments. Assuming that your investments are earning 10% (you're young, so I assume you are investing rather aggressively) and you take 5 years to pay off a loan. In the end, will lose about $48,000 for every $5,000 you borrow. You can to this link to plug in the numbers and see exactly how much you will potentially lose:

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/calc/401kl.asp

The money you invested orginally was pre-tax dollars. You'll pay taxes twice because you'll be borrowing pretax money and repaying it with after-tax money. Then, you'll be paying taxes on these same dollars again after you retire.

If you don't get it paid back in time, it will be considered a premature withdrawal on the money and not only will you have paid interest, but you'll get hit with the 10% penalty and have to pay the taxes on the withdrawal.

If your husband loses his job or decides to quit, the loan is due immediately.

I would go to some money websites and see what they have to say. It's probably similar to what I've said. It's a really, really, really bad idea. Sorry. JMHO.
post #4 of 28
Susie Orman always talks about comparing how much money you will pay out to the debt vs. how much money you will accrue with the money in the 401K plan. As the last poster said, it is pretty much not a good idea to take money out of the retirement account unless it is an emergency. But, you also should not be paying into it when you have debt. Take that 15% and put it toward the debt. Susie always says to pay off the debt before you put money into retirement. Then, when the debt is paid off, the same amount of the payment starts to go into retirement and you do not accrue more debt.

Oprah's debt diet website has a lot of information on paying off debt. A lot of people (and I am not meaning you necessarily as I do not know you) have items they are spending $$ on that they really don't need. Skimming back as much as possible can be painful. My dh and I used to live on two salaries and had little savings. When I was pregnant, we started to be thrifty and actually had a substantial savings by the time dd was born. We continued to cut back and cut back and I have managed to be a sahm for 4 years now. I would never have thought that was possible before. It is amazing how you can cut back your spending.

http://www2.oprah.com/money/debtdiet...iet_main.jhtml
post #5 of 28
I've borrowed from my 401k twice. The interest goes back into your 401k.... so it's going back to you. I had a 401k loan out when 9/11 hit, and gee, that money was a lot safer being out on loan (with me paying 10% interest back to myself) than if it had been in the stock market. (The half that was still in the market took a huge hit.) I could only take up to half of my 401k out on loan...the rules may be similar for you. It really helped me get my credit card debt down to where I could manage it better.

I'm going to go against "traditional" advice and say go for it. And you're forced to pay it back.......it comes right out of your paycheck, so you'll get it paid off in at least 5 years.
post #6 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by A&A
I've borrowed from my 401k twice. The interest goes back into your 401k.... so it's going back to you.
That interest is only to help you gain back some of the money you LOSE in taxation and fees!

You still lose thousands and thousands of dollars in compound interest! Nobody knows what the market is going to do! You can't gamble that the market is going to take a down-turn right when you borrow, so you can justify taking out the loan.

ANY respected financial advisor, columnist, author, or consultant would say under only DIREST of circumstances should you borrow. Use any and every other avenue to pay off the debt.

It's a Trojan Horse!! It looks like a great deal NOW, but in 30 years when you retire, and you're wondering why you can't make ends meet in retirement... you can blame it on these loans. It may be painful now, but you don't want to jeopardize retirement.

I agree with boongirl above... OP, if you are contributing now to your 401(k), stop and put it toward consumer debt.
post #7 of 28
How dire is your debt situation? I would suggest considering a debt repayment plan (through a legitimate agency), or, if your situation is bad enough, even a chapter 7 bankruptcy. In bankruptcy your retirement assets are exempt, as is a portion of your home equity, and the value of your vehicles and other property.

I only bring this up because I have read several news articles about people who got into a debt situation they couldn't work their way out of, to the point of draining their retirement assets and losing their homes, when the writing had been on the wall for a long time and if they had faced the issue and been more informed of their rights under bankruptcy law, they could have started over years earlier without losing so much. (And usually people in this situation have paid the "debt" many times over...but have never been able to get ahead of the compounding interest, late fees, over-limit fees, etc.)

It can be hard to determine a legitimate debt counseling agency from one of the "bad" ones, but your local United Way should be able to point you in the right direction.
post #8 of 28
Thread Starter 
Hmmm, United Way, didn't know that.
Actually when I tried to get a loan my banker advised the 401K plan
Basically to pay my bills each mo it is about $40 more than the 401 K loan would be....and what I'm paying is the MIN due which is basically interest.
So I rationalize like this....
I can't hardly make pmts due
with 401K it will be less and if I have the extra $40 at end of month I'll add it and pay 401K earlier
by only being able to pay min, in 5 yrs I will have pd in MANY thousands of dollars and have the same debt
OR I could pay off 401K in less than 5yrs and then put MAX allowed amt into 401K then
Is there a way to figure if what I'll lose in 401K will be more or less than what I'll spend if I keep making min pmts to my current debt...
I can currently ONLY pay the min
btw we want to buy a home in approx 5 yrs and with my debt now
A. my credit scorer is low and IF I could get a loan intrest would be unreal...my current mortgage is at 4.5%
B. I wouldn't be able to pay for a home any nicer than what I'm in now b/c I will still be paying debt

ALL Advice welcome
post #9 of 28
Thread Starter 
Is there a calculator that will show how long it will take to pay off a credit card....and how much you will pay total
post #10 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic

ANY respected financial advisor, columnist, author, or consultant would say under only DIREST of circumstances should you borrow. Use any and every other avenue to pay off the debt.
I REALIZE what the "experts" say. And I never claimed to be an expert. I was giving the OP my personal examples. IMHO, the market is going to take a huge TANK before I retire (because of peak oil.) I have money in a 401k because my employer contributes to it as well. But I have zero faith in it.

It gave me a HUGE psychological boost to be able to put a good chunk of money down on my credit card debt from taking the 401k loan. Then I was able to go from there and now I have zero cc debt (and no car loan debt, either, just a mortgage.)
post #11 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOM2ANSLEY
Is there a calculator that will show how long it will take to pay off a credit card....and how much you will pay total
Google "credit card calculator" ...you'll find a bunch.
post #12 of 28
I'd take a 401k loan before I declared bankruptcy ANY DAY. Besides hurting your credit, there is the ethical consideration of "dumping" your debt when you could pay it back (with a 401k loan.)

And don't even THINK of getting a second mortgage nor a home equity loan.
post #13 of 28
And think of it this way:

You don't KNOW what the market is going to do in the next five years (go up, up, up, or down, down, down), so you don't know exactly what that money can do for you while it's sitting in the market for the next five years.

But you know EXACTLY what that money can do for you in the next five years if you take a 401k loan.....it will get you down to zero cc debt.

And once you get yourself out of debt, and you want to protect more of your future, start paying off your house. (disclaimer: In my humble, "non-expert" opinion.)
post #14 of 28
Thread Starter 
Well, I used the calculator velochic posted and it didn't seem as bad as I anticipated So I probably will do it.
I also figure that right now I am super stressed about debt and once consolidated it will alleviate the pressure of feeling like I'm paying out my $$$ and not resolving any debt.
and If I'm stressed I'm not the best mommy I can be and I can't put a price tag on my emotional wellness and the quality of my time with my dc...
I can't relax and enjoy my time with dc b/c I feel like I should be working another job to payoff debt, but I don't wanna miss anymore mammytime than I have to.kwim
post #15 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by A&A
I'd take a 401k loan before I declared bankruptcy ANY DAY. Besides hurting your credit, there is the ethical consideration of "dumping" your debt when you could pay it back (with a 401k loan.)

And don't even THINK of getting a second mortgage nor a home equity loan.

like I said my banker told me to borrow against my 401K AFTER she looked at my credit report and credit analysis.

and I was raised to pay what you owe, no questions asked kwim!
post #16 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic
That interest is only to help you gain back some of the money you LOSE in taxation and fees!

You still lose thousands and thousands of dollars in compound interest! Nobody knows what the market is going to do! You can't gamble that the market is going to take a down-turn right when you borrow, so you can justify taking out the loan.

I didn't say that the downturn was my justification for taking the loan. I was just mentioning it to prove that sometimes the market does take a significant downturn, and that needs to be taken into consideration, as well. You called it a "gamble" to take out a loan, but having money in the market is always a gamble. And paying off the debt is a sure thing...no gamble there. You know exactly how much you'll be saving in interest.

And what "taxation and fees" are you talking about? It's not cashing out the 401k, where you pay penalties; it's just taking a loan from it. I paid a $40 processing fee, but that's the only fee I had to pay. I didn't have to pay tax on it at all, because there's no penalty tax, because you're paying it back. Yes, I paid the loan back with after-tax money, but I would be paying the debt off with after-tax money, anyway, if I were merely just writing a check to the credit card company each month.
post #17 of 28
Thread Starter 
After calculating I can payoff debt in 4y 8m with snowball method with 401k intact...if I stick to it...
post #18 of 28
You most certainly have a right to your opinion. And, of course, most likely nobody here can claim expertise.

But it's not about what the market is going to do in the next 5 years. When one borrows from their 401(k), they are losing the power of compounding interest over the next 30 - 40 years on the money lost. Yes, the market rises and falls in cycles. Yes, it's not predictable within those cycles. But over 150 years of data says that over the long haul, the stock market rises on average about 11% annualized and that if you pick solid investments, that's about the rate of return (before taxes) that you can realistically expect after 30 years. By borrowing $5000 now, you are in fact, borrowing nearly $50,000 of your future retirement. It may be harder to come up with some creative ways of paying down consumer debt, but the writing on the wall says "Don't borrow from retirement unless it's something like a medical emergency." I really wish the OP would look for other alternatives. The problem is that you don't see the effects of this loan for years and years, so it seems like such a good idea now. NOW, when you're young, life is a lot more flexible. Once you're retired, you can't "borrow" to live.

As for the advice about not borrowing in a HELOC. I most definitely disagree. You can usually get lower interest rates than you would borrowing from your 401(k), the terms are extremely flexible, there is no threat if you lose your job that you would have to repay it, and if you itemize on your taxes, it's a great boon for your tax return. I also think that paying off your mortgage is a VERY INDIVIDUAL financial decision that needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. It depends on your current investments, your marginal tax rate, and stability of your income. We could pay off our mortgage right now, but choose not to. We have a really low rate, we itemize on our taxes and our investments are gaining us about 2.5% over our mortgage right now. We'd be fools to pay it off. We carry a mortgage BY CHOICE.

Finally, I don't see peak oil (as a single contributing factor) as heavily correlated to the world markets. Yeah, it can affect a country's ECONOMY, but so can GDP, personal spending, consumer price index, unemployment and many other economnic forces. That's the point of asset allocation. If you have a well-diversified portfolio, while one area might not be growing, you are invested in areas that do grow - it's not gambling, it's PLANNING. Right now my domestic funds aren't doing so hot, but my international funds are AMAZING! As inflation stabilizes, my bond funds are doing okay, too. A diversified portfolio is always going to grow over time. I have 100% faith in that. I have watched our portfolio grow for the past 20 years (both tax-advantaged retirement/college savings accounts and taxable accounts). I just think it's bad advice to tell someone to stay away from investments. I bet Warrent Buffet is glad he didn't.

Like I said, of course you have a right to your opinion. I just don't agree with it.
post #19 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by A&A
And what "taxation and fees" are you talking about?
When you borrow money from your 401(k), you get the pleasure of paying taxes to Uncle Sam TWICE!!

Once when you pay yourself back with after-tax monies and then again when you take distributions after you turn 59.5 years old.

By not taking out the loan, assuming you are in the 25% marginal tax bracket... you've saved youself that much money simply by not borrowing against your retirement. You want to talk about definite returns. There's one for you. When you borrow, you are GUARANTEED to pay your income taxes TWICE when you borrow. With cc's at least you're paying the interest rate and not your marginal income tax rate!
post #20 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by A&A
It gave me a HUGE psychological boost to be able to put a good chunk of money down on my credit card debt from taking the 401k loan. Then I was able to go from there and now I have zero cc debt (and no car loan debt, either, just a mortgage.)
I mean no disrespect whatsoever by saying this, but I wanted to add...

Getting something NOW and paying for it later (consumer, or credit card debt) is what gets a lot of people in trouble in the first place.

Borrowing from your 401(k) is doing that all over again. You're borrowing now to get the satisfaction of paying off consumer debt. But in 30 years, you'll be paying for it even more when you're retired. You'll be without the means to support yourself at an age when you no longer want/can work.

It's just another example where it's smart to think years down the line and make financial decisions with long-term repercussions in mind, instead of the "HUGE psychological boost" you get now. It may be a psychological boost now, but I wish people would think of that HUGE FINANCIAL BOOST they will need in retirement.
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