Only one way is the right way

[Heavenly]

In light of the recent discussions about supposed bashing of unschoolers I have noticed something upsetting. There are many, many threads where a person is asking curriculum advice or homeschooling preschool advice or any number of things and inevitably, almost every time, someone will tell them why they shouldn't be doing it such and such a way and should be unschooling. To be perfectly honest that pisses me off because if I want to come here and ask for curriculum tips for a 4 year old that is my own business and obviously if I am asking for curriculum tips I am not interested in unschooling at this time. Why is it assumed that if a person is using a curriculum or an eschool that they must just be uneducated about the benefits of unschooling and if you just set them straight they will subscribe to your method? You know what, I think there should be a separate unschoolers board on here because I am sick and tired of seeing people being told why they should unschool over and over and over and over again. IMO a separate unschoolers board is needed so that those who don't subscribe to unschooling can ask their questions without condemnation.

[LeftField]

I would really hate to see a separate unschoolers board. And I would also hate to see a sticky saying that we could never voice dissent or disagreement over a particular method. I come here to read a little bit of everything. I like seeing the alleged pros and cons of all methods and I think it's Ok for a person to think there is a "con" to a method as long as it's said without mean language. I think it behooves us to hear all these different opinions. It helps me to keep an open mind and it helps me to learn new things.

But I don't think any particular method should be immune to criticism. And IKWYM that early academics are going to be nearly universally condemned, which is not entirely fair.

I hope this board stays a mix of ideas and opinions and that we can not take everything personally (myself included). I think that's what makes this board so interesting.

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by Heavenly

if I want to come here and ask for curriculum tips for a 4 year old that is my own business and obviously if I am asking for curriculum tips I am not interested in unschooling at this time.

I don't think that's obvious at all. I think that we as a society are so steeped in the school mindset that it doesn't always occur to people that their presschool-aged (and even younger) kids don't need to have formal lessons. Reading about unschooling on this board is what pushed me toward unschooling. Just because you are not interested in unschooling doesn't mean that other people aren't or aren't open to hearing about it even if they have asked about curriculum. I don't think that a separate unschooling board would work for the same reason that a separate TCS board wouldn't work, although I feel hear your frustration because I have fervently wished in the past for a separate TCS board.

Namaste!

Edited for syntax.

[Jennifer3141]

You've got to take those threads (and MANY others here!) with a grain of salt.
I accept that there is a higher level of unschoolers here because well, hippies tend to do that. And hippies are MDC's target audience. It can make you feel uncomfortable if you're only "hippie-ish" but all in all, the vast majority of the people who post here are open hearted and many are open minded as well.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Heavenly

In light of the recent discussions about supposed bashing of unschoolers I have noticed something upsetting.

If you are referring to the thread started by me, I didn't ask about bashing of *unschooling,* I asked where the line is between critiquing and bashing of anything related to homeschooling.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to start a whole seperate thread, as this is really part of that same topic.

"Where is the line and what is respectful?" was the question that I posed.

[ShannonCC]

Have you noticed that many of the people suggesting that people delay academics aren't unschoolers? A lot of people don't believe in curricula for little kids. Some of those people believe in curricula for older kids, just not little ones. Saying it's all the unschoolers doing that just muddles the issue.

It seems like "Unschooler" is starting to be a catch all for anyone who suggests someone ease up on something, whether or not they think they are an unschooler themselves.

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by Jennifer3141

And hippies are MDC's target audience.

Really? I've never heard that before! If that's the case, I'm in the wrong place!

Groovy, man.

[mccelticmom]

You know, when I post about my experience (so far), I try to keep in mind exactly what the OP is asking...if you ask for curriculum...then I might suggest a book or something...I've had many people tell me things in the past and you know..sometimes you've just go to take what you want and leave the rest. I do agree that no one should be *bashing* another's approach to HSing...it only disconnects.

I look at it this way...at least everyone here agrees on one thing...Homeschooling is important to their family...and that's a good thing!

And you know, I sometimes find myself worrying about doing this or that and absolutely love when people tell me things like...Hey he's only 6, give him some time. Again, taking what I want and leaving the rest.

[arlecchina]

I would not like seperation of homeschool/unschool. we do both (sortof). I get info helpful to me from ALL of you, not just unschoolers/curriculum based schoolers. I dont know but at times it seems the unschoolers arent telling someone they're doing it wrong so much as only trying to shine a light on another possible facet.

[Panthira]

Originally Posted by Jennifer3141

You've got to take those threads (and MANY others here!) with a grain of salt.
I accept that there is a higher level of unschoolers here because well, hippies tend to do that. And hippies are MDC's target audience. It can make you feel uncomfortable if you're only "hippie-ish" but all in all, the vast majority of the people who post here are open hearted and many are open minded as well.

LOL I'm so far from being a hippy!

I'm one of those people who asked about a virtual school for my almost 15 yr old DD. I've never felt bashed, though some people gently suggested unschooling. I don't agree with unschooling for her, which we did try for a year, but no one "bashed" me for those choices...

[frogguruami]

Originally Posted by ShannonCC

Have you noticed that many of the people suggesting that people delay academics aren't unschoolers? A lot of people don't believe in curricula for little kids. Some of those people believe in curricula for older kids, just not little ones. Saying it's all the unschoolers doing that just muddles the issue.

It seems like "Unschooler" is starting to be a catch all for anyone who suggests someone ease up on something, whether or not they think they are an unschooler themselves.

I have to agree with this. If someone posts about a curric for a preschooler I may post that one really isn't needed. I believe that formal academics are needed or benificial to very young children. I am NOT an unschooler. I love the concept but it just isn't one that works for us.

[lillake]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

I don't think that's obvious at all. I think that we as a society are so steeped in the school mindset that it doesn't always occur to people that their presschool-aged (and even younger) kids don't need to have formal lessons.

: I know many people who have never heard of unschooling and just assume that the only way is curriculum lead. Its nice to be reminded that there are options, even if they arent the options you choose.

[GoodEats]

Um, actually, unschoolers aren't in the majority here, at least as respondents to a poll LillianJ put up when I made a similar comment.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...highlight=Poll

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by ShannonCC

Have you noticed that many of the people suggesting that people delay academics aren't unschoolers? A lot of people don't believe in curricula for little kids. Some of those people believe in curricula for older kids, just not little ones. Saying it's all the unschoolers doing that just muddles the issue.

agreed.

There are several well researched books on the problem with the current push for early academics:

Your Child's Growing Mind by Jane Healy

Miseducation: Preschoolers at Risk by David Elkind

Better Late than Early by Raymond and Dorothy Moore

You are Your Child's First Teacher by Rahima Baldwin Darcy

None of these books advocates unschooling.

[LeftField]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

agreed.

There are several well researched books on the problem with the current push for early academics:

Your Child's Growing Mind by Jane Healy

Miseducation: Preschoolers at Risk by David Elkind

Better Late than Early by Raymond and Dorothy Moore

You are Your Child's First Teacher by Rahima Baldwin Darcy

None of these books advocates unschooling.

I'm not a big fan of early academics, but I *think* that point was that no one seems to hesitate to speak up against early academics. That's a popular bandwagon to jump on. But there's some outrage when other methods are questioned. IMHO, no philosophy should be immune to criticism.

Also, I would argue that not all of those books are well-researched and that controversy exists over some of the "research". For example, "You are Your Child's First Teacher" is written from an anthroposophical viewpoint (Waldorf). That POV believes that early academics leads to long-term physical ailments. For example, page 284 quotes Steiner (highly controversial person) and makes that reference to the change of teeth and says "Whenever you call directly on the intellect and memory of the young child, you are using energy that is needed for physical development in the first seven years." Page 317 says "Many times early intellectual awakening can result in a weakening of the child's vital forces, manifesting in frequent colds or other illnesses." There are a lot of references to ideas that are rooted in mystical beliefs about life forces and energy. AFAIK, it proposes many viewpoints that are just not supported by independent scientific research outside of the Waldorf community. So, I would not hold those books as the last say-so in early academics, rather view them through a critical microscope like I do for all sources. I haven't read the other books, but I carefully evaluate everything I read and make up my own mind. So, I don't think that book listing can be held up as the last say-so to remove early academics from the discussion. Anything should be up for a polite debate here, outside of support threads.

[Kaitnbugsmom]

Isn't all homeschooling unschooling? That's a question I've had for a long time. School is about regiment, rules, tight schedules and forcing certain subject matter at prescribed ages & times. School is forced social interaction, forced seat work times and minimal if any free thinking. I've never seen homeschooling work like that. I've seen people try it, but never seen it work, kwim?


As for the exactness of the OP: why seperate Unschooling from the rest of hs'ing? Even if some people consider them seperate, what purpose would it serve? With the rules about not cross posting, it would greatly limit the 'idea pool' in general. And how is suggesting unschooling as an alternative to 'book learning' any different than offering CD'ing as an alternative to a mama asking what brand of sposies to use? or any other question that provokes thought and alternatives as suggestions...

[annettemarie]

I always assumed it went without saying that each individual post expressed the opinion of the individual posting. So if someone says, "You really don't need a curriculum for your two-year-old" it would go without saying that the person making that statement was expressing her opinion, not speaking as some sort of universal authority on preschool curriculum.

[RedWine]

Originally Posted by LeftField

I'm not a big fan of early academics, but I *think* that point was that no one seems to hesitate to speak up against early academics. That's a popular bandwagon to jump on. But there's some outrage when other methods are questioned. IMHO, no philosophy should be immune to criticism.

Also, I would argue that not all of those books are well-researched and that controversy exists over some of the "research". For example, "You are Your Child's First Teacher" is written from an anthroposophical viewpoint (Waldorf). That POV believes that early academics leads to long-term physical ailments. For example, page 284 quotes Steiner (highly controversial person) and makes that reference to the change of teeth and says "Whenever you call directly on the intellect and memory of the young child, you are using energy that is needed for physical development in the first seven years." Page 317 says "Many times early intellectual awakening can result in a weakening of the child's vital forces, manifesting in frequent colds or other illnesses." There are a lot of references to ideas that are rooted in mystical beliefs about life forces and energy. AFAIK, it proposes many viewpoints that are just not supported by independent scientific research outside of the Waldorf community. So, I would not hold those books as the last say-so in early academics, rather view them through a critical microscope like I do for all sources. I haven't read the other books, but I carefully evaluate everything I read and make up my own mind. So, I don't think that book listing can be held up as the last say-so to remove early academics from the discussion. Anything should be up for a polite debate here, outside of support threads.

Thanks for this, Leftfield.

I do what many would probably consider a 1st grade curriculum's worth of material with my oldest. She's 3 years, 8 months old. She's also driven, very interested, excited, and extremely happy. I know I am not harming my daughter -- on the contrary, she appears to be thriving. There are many many many hours left in each day to cavort outside, play dress-up, talk to her imaginary friends, etc. Therefore, I put no faith in a blanket statement which claims that early academics are bad for kids. That's like saying unschooling is the best thing -- or the worst thing -- for all families.

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

There are several well researched books on the problem with the current push for early academics:

Your Child's Growing Mind by Jane Healy

Miseducation: Preschoolers at Risk by David Elkind

Better Late than Early by Raymond and Dorothy Moore

You are Your Child's First Teacher by Rahima Baldwin Darcy

None of these books advocates unschooling.

Add these from other professional educators and researchers who are not unschoolers - or even homeschoolers, for that matter:

Child's Work: The Importance of Fantasy Play, by Vivian Gussin Paley

and

Einstein Never Used Flashcards, by Kathy Hirsh-Pasek and Roberta Michnick Golinkoff

And there are lots of similar articles and book excerpts on this page:
preschool and kindergarten learning activities

Lillian

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by LeftField

So, I don't think that book listing can be held up as the last say-so to remove early academics from the discussion. Anything should be up for a polite debate here, outside of support threads.

I may be wrong, but I think Linda's point was that there are people other than unschoolers who don't believe in pushing early childhood academics.

-Lillian