Only one way is the right way - Page 2

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by RedWine

I do what many would probably consider a 1st grade curriculum's worth of material with my oldest. She's 3 years, 8 months old. She's also driven, very interested, excited, and extremely happy. I know I am not harming my daughter -- on the contrary, she appears to be thriving. There are many many many hours left in each day to cavort outside, play dress-up, talk to her imaginary friends, etc. Therefore, I put no faith in a blanket statement which claims that early academics are bad for kids. That's like saying unschooling is the best thing -- or the worst thing -- for all families.

I think the key word is "push" - you're not pushing your daughter, and that's very different from many others I've run across over the years who are indeed stressing little ones who are not remotely as interested or able as yours is to do those things. My own son would have been beside himself with anxiety if I'd done anything resembling a 1st grade curriculum with him - and yet, he thrived in learning and later in his college classes, so it wasn't a problem that he wasn't taught to read till he was almost seven. I can't think of anyone would be critical of you providing those things that your daughter is enjoying - but I still think it's a good idea to let people new to homeschooling know that early academics isn't "necessary" and can actually be detrimental in many cases. Lillian

[RedWine]

Originally Posted by Lillian J

Add these from other professional educators and researchers who are not unschoolers - or even homeschoolers, for that matter:

Child's Work: The Importance of Fantasy Play, by Vivian Gussin Paley

and

Einstein Never Used Flashcards, by Kathy Hirsh-Pasek and Roberta Michnick Golinkoff

And there are lots of similar articles and book excerpts on this page:
preschool and kindergarten learning activities

Lillian

Yes, but this post misses Leftfield's point. My particular child does very well with early academics. By posting such links as a response to someone's inquiry regarding resources for early academics, you insinuate that early academics are just not a good idea. This is not true. For some, it IS a good idea. It's like me posting a bunch of links bashing unschooling to a response to someone asking how to unschool their teen.

[RedWine]

Originally Posted by Lillian J

I think the key word is "push" - you're not pushing your daughter, and that's very different from many others I've run across over the years who are indeed stressing little ones who are not remotely as interested or able as yours is to do those things. My own son would have been beside himself with anxiety if I'd done anything resembling a 1st grade curriculum with him - and yet, he thrived in learning and later in his college classes, so it wasn't a problem that he wasn't taught to read till he was almost seven. I can't think of anyone would be critical of you providing those things that your daughter is enjoying - but I still think it's a good idea to let people new to homeschooling know that early academics isn't "necessary" and can actually be detrimental in many cases. Lillian

We cross-posted.

Okay, gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. We aren't at odds after all.

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by RedWine

Yes, but this post misses Leftfield's point. My particular child does very well with early academics. By posting such links as a response to someone's inquiry regarding resources for early academics, you insinuate that early academics are just not a good idea. This is not true. For some, it IS a good idea. It's like me posting a bunch of links bashing unschooling to a response to someone asking how to unschool their teen.

I think the key word is "push" - I don't think anyone would argue that a child who is particularly interested and capable in doing early academics should be prevented or discouraged from it, but to push it on them is a different thing. Lillian

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by LeftField

Also, I would argue that not all of those books are well-researched and that controversy exists over some of the "research". For example, "You are Your Child's First Teacher" is written from an anthroposophical viewpoint (Waldorf).

I agree. The best researched books that I listed are the Elkind and Healy books. Both are very solidly researched and very anti early academics.

Originally Posted by Lillian

I may be wrong, but I think Linda's point was that there are people other than unschoolers who don't believe in pushing early childhood academics.

yes

It's nice to see you back Lillian!

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

I agree. The best researched books that I listed are the Elkind and Healy books. Both are very solidly researched and very anti early academics.

Linda, it's my understaning that the Moores' book is well researched -although it unfortunately is threaded with their own personal philosophy about parenting, some of which is pretty much at odds with us Mothering types (such as not picking them up just because they want to be picked up, etc.). I wish they had left that kind of thing out, because it limits the readership that would otherwise stand to gain from the book. - Lillian

[umbrella]

we are unschoolers, and we also have curricula.

[rebeccalizzie]

I would be sad to lose the unschoolers' perspective in this forum, and I am absolutely not unschooling my 10 year old. But when I asked for curriculum ideas for math, several people gave me unconventional ideas that are currently working much better than an actual curriculum ever could. DD is advanced in some areas and WAY behind in others, so there is no curriculum that would have worked for her. Instead, we are using a combination of a bunch of websites (from Lillian's site, thank you Lillian!!!), Clue FInders Math, and some really fun workbooks (she picked them out and loves them). Without unschoolers, I would have gotten the standard "try MUS, or try Saxon, or try something else" and would have spent a fortune on curriculum that would have stressed DD out.

If people don't want any suggestions other than set purchased curriculums, then maybe they could say something to that effect in their original post, but I've posted bunches of times about my curriculum choosing woes and have never felt like I've gotten anything other than support and gentle suggestions of things I may not have thought of. I've been bashed on MDC a couple of times, and it seriously sucks. I really don't think anyone is bashed by the unschoolers here.

[sweetpeas]

Originally Posted by Lillian J

I think the key word is "push" - I don't think anyone would argue that a child who is particularly interested and capable in doing early academics should be prevented or discouraged from it, but to push it on them is a different thing. Lillian

Actually I felt that, when I posted about how my 3 yr old was actively ASKING to learn to read & I was asking for gentle ways to lead her in that direction, several people DID tell me that I should somehow just put her off for awhile because she's "too young". I'm the first to argue against pushing young children to learn to much, but I also have a problem with being told that I should tell my dd that she's "too young to read" and leave it at that. So, while I don't think you (Lillian) have ever said someone should prevent/discourage a child from learning, there are those who have.

[eilonwy]

Originally Posted by sweetpeas

Actually I felt that, when I posted about how my 3 yr old was actively ASKING to learn to read & I was asking for gentle ways to lead her in that direction, several people DID tell me that I should somehow just put her off for awhile because she's "too young". I'm the first to argue against pushing young children to learn to much, but I also have a problem with being told that I should tell my dd that she's "too young to read" and leave it at that. So, while I don't think you (Lillian) have ever said someone should prevent/discourage a child from learning, there are those who have.

: I'm going to have to do that search after Bella's in bed, but I've gotten that comment *loads* of times. "Just let him be a child!" As if he could possibly be anything else-- he is a child, he just happens to be a child who enjoys formal academic study.

Many non-unschoolers will agree that it's wrong to push a child, but I think that a lot of people on this board assume that if a child is doing anything which they don't consider age-appropriate, then that child must be being pushed.

As to the OP: I've felt that way in the past, and I expect that I'll feel that way in the future, but I don't think that a separate unschooling board is a great idea. While I've found myself at odds with the unschooling community here on several occasions, I've also found myself learning and thinking in different ways. In particular, I must admit that I'd miss ErikaDP and LillianJ if we lost them to an unschooling forum (which I'd rarely if ever visit). I'm not an unschooler, and I never will be, but I can relate to and understand many of the ideals that unschoolers of all stripes aspire to; I'm completely against high stakes testing, for example, and I don't believe in drawing artificial lines between education and real life. I'm also completely against all but the broadest age-grouping, and I don't believe in presenting materials to a child based on anything other than their ability level.

What I would like to see is a sticky explaining unschooling with older and younger children, rather than every post by a parent of a child under 5/6/7 being spammed with "Just let him be a child," or "Unschool, it's the best way!"

[yonit]

This seems to be a common problem on many boards and I have dealt with it a lot over the years. When I first began homeschooling 7 years ago, I was on a list for Jewish homeschoolers. I was actually on it for a few years - any educational philosophy was welcome so it was meant to be a diverse group. Unfortunately the group had a very unschooling bent, and anytime I asked a question about a particular curriculum or ideas for curriculum, I would get a bunch of people responding that I didn't need any curriculum. And my son wasn't that young then - he was 9, almost 10. It got to the point where I wasn't getting any usable support from the list, and left.

I also ran a statewide e-mail list of over 1000 people and this also came up periodically. Obviously we did not ask the unschoolers to leave - nor would I want them too. But we did have rules that said you needed to be respectful of other people's hs'ing philosophies. And honestly it worked both ways. More than once some one would ask for information on unschooling or ideas for their child's interest in a certain subject- and a bunch of people would jump in and say "Oh, you don't want to do that. This curriculum is much better" And of course that wasn't acceptable either.

And yes, as a pp said, the unschoolers response generally is "well, maybe she didn't know she doesn't have to use a curriculum" But I have yet to meet the person that doesn't know that. Every time I have seen it come up, the OP would say "I do know that I don't have to use a curriculum, but there are these reasons that I want to" - and why should she have to explain them if she doesn't want to. I have yet to see the person says "Thanks, I never knew I didn't have to use any curriculum".

I am not sayng this very well, and I apologize for that. I am truly not trying to bash unschoolers or unschooling -as I have very strong un-schooling tendencies as well. And I would hate to see a seperate board for unschoolers as everyone's opinion is valuable.

[HilMama]

I LOVE the unschooler input. We aren't unschoolers. If pushed, I'd say we are "eclectic" homeschoolers. I have gotten SO MANY fantastic ideas from unschoolers on this board, from Miquon Math to cool topics to explore. I also find this board to be supportive and filled with creative, caring people.

I don't want to be on a board filled with people who all think alike--I wouldn't learn a thing! YES to diversity of viewpoint!

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by yonit

I have yet to see the person says "Thanks, I never knew I didn't have to use any curriculum".

I've seen this though. I honestly think a lot of people don't realize there are other possibilities. In fact, I remember when I first started that I thought we were lucky to be able to have a local public school program that would tell us "how to do it" and provide "the books." As a contact for a state homeschooling organization, I've had a number of people contact me over the years to ask "Where do I get the books?" Lillian

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by yonit

I have yet to see the person says "Thanks, I never knew I didn't have to use any curriculum".

Maybe not in those exact words but I bet there are a lot of people who have had rebeccalizzie's experience:

Originally Posted by rebeccalizzie

But when I asked for curriculum ideas for math, several people gave me unconventional ideas that are currently working much better than an actual curriculum ever could. DD is advanced in some areas and WAY behind in others, so there is no curriculum that would have worked for her. Instead, we are using a combination of a bunch of websites (from Lillian's site, thank you Lillian!!!), Clue FInders Math, and some really fun workbooks (she picked them out and loves them). Without unschoolers, I would have gotten the standard "try MUS, or try Saxon, or try something else" and would have spent a fortune on curriculum that would have stressed DD out.

If people don't want any suggestions other than set purchased curriculums, then maybe they could say something to that effect in their original post, but I've posted bunches of times about my curriculum choosing woes and have never felt like I've gotten anything other than support and gentle suggestions of things I may not have thought of.

[annethcz]

Just chiming in as another person who is NOT an unschooler, but someone who has found that sometimes curriuculum is not the best answer for *MY* children. I've been known to post something like, "well, if you're looking for a packaged curriculum, you might be interested in XXX. But I found that for my kids, a curriculum wasn't neccesary because of XXX"

On a discussion board, people are mostly posting based on their particular experiences. Most posters are NOT unschoolers, as the poll showed. But there are a LOT of 'relaxed' homeschoolers here, who are open to using methods other than a boxed curriculum. I've been reading this board for several years, and it seems to be a common experience for parents to do early academics with their first/oldest child, and then become more relaxed with subsequent children as they become more comfortable with homeschooling. I know I certainly fit into that category.

I guess I don't view a 'better late that early' or an anti-early academics philosophy as the same thing as unschooling. And I don't view it as disrepectful to post a gently-worded post about unschooling to a poster asking about appropriate preschool curriculums. The fact is, if you read through the last month's worth of posts on this board, you'll see a whole bunch of posts from moms with young children and very little exposure to homeschooling asking about what they should be doing with their kids. It's probably one of the most common questions on the board.

Certainly, anyone who is going to reply to a post should read the first post carefully and answer the question that is actually being asked. But I don't think that saying, "sometimes a curriculum isn't needed because XXX" should be classified as "bashing" those who choose to use curriculum.

[oceanbaby]

How is this any different than any other topic here on Mothering? Ask for suggestions about getting your child to sleep in their crib, and someone is likely to suggest cosleeping. Ask for suggestions about how to implement time outs, and someone is going to suggest not doing them. Ask for suggestions about how to get your child to eat their vegetables, and someone will suggest letting the child choose what they want at all times. Ask for suggestions about partial vaccination schedules and someone will suggest not vaccinating at all. I could go and on. For each of these kinds of threads, the OP may or may not be at all interested in what each and every person suggests. I certainly don't think it means that the person shouldn't give their opinion.

And PLEASE - no separate forums on the homeschooling boards!