Discussion about UC birth - Page 11

[erin_brycesmom]

In other words, your desire to be part of childbirth beyond your own says precisely nothing about what birth is supposed to be for me.

fourlittlebirds - go back and read what I wrote again. I never said that my feelings say anything about what birth is supposed to be fore you. I think you can agree with me that there are many women who have a strong calling to be a part of other women's childbirth in *some* way. And that does say to me that not every woman is meant to UC. Don't take it as saying that every women is meant to be attended because that is not what I said, nor is it what I implied.

By your reasoning, I could ask, why would I have a strong desire to UC if it wasn't meant to be that way for all women?

nope, actually by *my* reasoning you could say that you know attended births weren't meant to be for everyone. See what I'm saying now

~Erin

[mwherbs]

hard to say about male dominated societies-- here in the SW we have some long standing matriarchal societies and women did attend other women's births and it is so in some other countries where women dominate the society-- it actually looks like women moved to birthing alone during times of war or great stress on society/social bonds.

[poetesss]

The religious reasons. The fear-based reasons (no, I don't think it's all about self-protection and instinct in protecting our babies...I think it's fear and mistrust of people). The belief that this birth will somehow prove something...
Or the romanticism...lined with naivete (sp?).

Re: fear as being a "bad" reason for UC...

Actually, I don't see what's so bad about fear as a reason for UC. It's not a "fear of people" that drives a woman during such an intimate event to withdraw with only those she trusts (whether her partner, only family, friends she chooses, etc. excluding medical attendants). BTW this fear aspect assumes that UC necessarily means a private birth, which doesn't have to be the case. You could UC with your husband and friend, as long as no one is acting as a midwife.

I'll give an example--if I had no option for a midwife and hospital was the only other route, I would probably (if other factors allowed it) choose UC because I have a FEAR of OBs and the way they practice. I've had some bad experiences to the point that when my knees go up in the lithotomy position for some kind of exam, they start to shake. I do NOT need to be birthing in that environment of fear, and I think that the adverse effects would be to such a degree that UC would be the safest option for me.

[cottonwood]

Originally Posted by erin_brycesmom

fourlittlebirds - go back and read what I wrote again. I never said that my feelings say anything about what birth is supposed to be fore you.

I apologize profusely, I misread what you wrote to say, "why would I feel this way if women weren't supposed to have other women attend them in birth?"

[Kidzaplenty]

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

I apologize profusely, I misread what you wrote to say, "why would I feel this way if women weren't supposed to have other women attend them in birth?"

Don't feel too bad, that is exactly what I read too.

[shell024]

Originally Posted by mama in the forest

Isolation? I don't know. I do isolate myself during birth. But it feels beautiful, peaceful, spiritual, sexual, and welcomed. That privacy/isolation is exactly where I need to be. After birth I emerge powerful, and more sure of myself than ever.

Yes!!

[cottonwood]

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

Not UC itself, but certain conditions and belief systems under which it's done.

I guess I should elaborate.

Things that to my mind make UC less safe. (Edited to remove the words "not the best idea" which implies a judgement of someone else's, when I only meant it to be from mine.)

When the parents are fearful enough of others becoming involved that they avoid seeking help even when there are indications that something is very wrong.

When the mother is UCing only because her husband is in charge as the "head of the family" and *he* wants her to.

When *all* medical care is rejected for religious reasons.

When the mother and father believe that nothing undesired can happen.

When the husband (or anyone, really,) acts in the role of midwife, directing the mother.

When there is anyone present who makes the mother feel unhibited or self-conscious or unsupported.

When the birth, for whatever reason, is not allowed to be spontaneous and instinctive.

When the mother has serious health problems.

When the mother does not have enough body awareness to intuit what is normal and what is not.

When UC is chosen because there is no other choice, out of desperation.

When UC is chosen only to save money.

When UC is chosen despite the mother still having serious reservations and fears about it.

I could probably go on but I ought to go to bed...

[loved]

Yes - sometimes it is fear and mistrust of other people that drives a woman to UC. And I do think that can be a bad thing.
Again, pain pushes.
Vision pulls.

It is my belief that fear is the opposite of love.

Yes, I am a homebrith midwife but my perspective comes from the discussions I have had with women, books I have read, the many years of online discussion boards on this very topic, and that I, myself, am a mother and had a wonderful UC (unintended).

And no, poetess I am not assuming anything about how or with whom a woman chooses to UC. I think that mistrust can be the driving force regardless.

[mwherbs]

Loved wrote>>"And no, poetess I am not assuming anything about how or with whom a woman chooses to UC. I think that mistrust can be the driving force regardless."

yes, I can go with this but I feel more complex. I had already been battered by my previous hospital births and uplifted by a mind altering homebirth the few imperfections in that birth and the serendipitous place I lived were things leading me to have the best birth experience to date atleast that is what I though, and went toward. But during birth things can change and I really had no resources to call on just the dread hospital and my deepest want/intuition was to call someone for reassurance, just someone to take certain concerns over so I could let go , this was not in early labor this was in active labor I did not have that so faced the darkest parts of my fears and endured but it was not beauty- so yes there are pieces of fear in the decision to UC- because the hospital is a hell I never want to go though again and i mean this not just for birth- DH had a stroke 5 1/2 years ago and it was as horrible and inhuman during that as birth is culturally i am just not cut out for industrial style care-

[loved]

I also, just want to say that I think there is a difference between choosing to homebirth because of fear of hospitals and the crapola that happens there and choosing to UC out of fear of midwives.

Please, before I get bashed, I KNOW there are crappy midwives out there. I do think there is a distinction between choosing between the two though.

:

[sapphire_chan]

What about fear of a specific midwife?

[cottonwood]

Originally Posted by loved

I also, just want to say that I think there is a difference between choosing to homebirth because of fear of hospitals and the crapola that happens there and choosing to UC out of fear of midwives.

Because the push/pull dichotomy applies in both situations -- you can make a choice either out of a reaction against the thing or out of an embrace of the other -- I'm assuming you're talking about something else but I can't think what it is. Would you elaborate?

[moonfirefaery]

I chose to UC because it is something I feel I need to do myself, at least once. I think it will be empowering and give me a great sense of confidence to say "I did that. All by myself." It would prove to me that I can do anything and that I am strong, and I think that would affect my life forever. Moreover, it's not that I'm afraid of hospitals or midwives; it's that I don't want unnecessary interventions, and that could happen with both a hospital or a midwife. Lastly, getting Tricare to cover a homebirth is a hassel that I almost don't even wanna deal with! I really don't think that 'fear' is a very common reason for women to chose to UC. Fear isn't enough of a motivator, imo, to get you through labor and delivery. If anything I think it is the opinion that it is empowering, natural, or preferable to assisted birth...not fear of assistance.

[mama in the forest]

I also, just want to say that I think there is a difference between choosing to homebirth because of fear of hospitals and the crapola that happens there and choosing to UC out of fear of midwives.

Though the issues and problems are different, I don't like the crapola that happens with midwives either. :

Fear of midwives is a valid reason to UC.

[mwherbs]

so I don't think that we can really judge why women choose to birth the way they do, moving away from something, required by religious faith , fear of providers, fear of no provider . But when deciding for ourselves is when judgment should come in and who we share the birthing experience with or choose not to share is our individual choice- do I think that fear of midwives is any different than fear of hospitals and docs no- there are some midwives famous or not I would not want near me- maybe instead of a CSection or some sort of life saving thing but this would be instead of going to the hospital.

---I would also like to comment on a previous post about watching other women parent and breastfeed- to say that in this country where we do not generally see women nursing babies we have tons of breastfeeding related problems more so than in primary cultures where women/babies have remained attached- irregardless of disturbed births-much of what is taught has to do with seeing a behavior in context not so much about problem solving by talking about things or reading about them but learning by observation and doing. I do think that many things are nature and nurture just like language, people all over the world speak a language if they are hearing and not mute, but we don't all speak the same language we speak what we hear-
for me deeper cultural things I was raised with extended family until I went to school- so women ran things the household and the work and it was not only run by women but shared- and no one was boss- things got done, if one woman was doing dishes then one scraped plates or rinsed and dried.. and no one micromanaged even when I learned I was given a towel and not instructed - when I lived in communes it was similar but different because too many bosses and not enough just get it done folks and way too much talking and probably too many cultural differences - micromanagement down to how to squeeze a tooth paste tube...If my grandmothers had been alive when I had my children either one I would have trusted or both no second thoughts- to find women of their actions in the US midwifery world is not an easy feat-- when I have met midwives from other countries many are similar to my grandmothers humble, strong, compassionate, sensible, women i would trust.

[~~Mama2B~~]

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

I guess I should elaborate.

Things that to my mind make UC less safe or not the best idea (and I realize that not everyone will agree with me on every point):

When the parents are fearful enough of others becoming involved that they avoid seeking help even when there are indications that something is very wrong.

When the mother is UCing only because her husband is in charge as the "head of the family" and *he* wants her to.

When *all* medical care is rejected for religious reasons.

When the mother and father believe that nothing undesired can happen.

When the husband (or anyone, really,) acts in the role of midwife, directing the mother.

When there is anyone present who makes the mother feel unhibited or self-conscious or unsupported.

When the birth, for whatever reason, is not allowed to be spontaneous and instinctive.

When the mother has serious health problems.

When the mother does not have enough body awareness to intuit what is normal and what is not.

When UC is chosen because there is no other choice, out of desperation.

When UC is chosen only to save money.

When UC is chosen despite the mother still having serious reservations and fears about it.

I could probably go on but I ought to go to bed...

While these may make you uncomfortable, they certainly do not diminish the validity of the choice to UC. Many women who plan a UC will do much more research than a woman who plans to give birth in a hospital and let someone else run things. Therefore they are not ignorant and naive, but educated and empowered.

Likewise, many women who choose a hospital birth do so for many ofht ereasons you were concerned about. They don't think there are other options, they don't think anything can go wrong at a hospital, the husband/partner makes them, they are afraid of rejection or persecution from friends and family, etc. I have always believed that the best place for a woman to birth is in the place in which she feels the most safe and comfortable. However, the choice should be an educated one. The only people I "worry about" are those who don't know they have birthing options. They either birth the way society deems appropriate or the way they are pressured into by friends and/or family.

The original reason I looked into homebirth was because I wanted a child but could not afford the hospital bills. However, I now am committed to a homebirth (UC) because I will be more free and relaxed to have an empowering birth. Will I choose my dream birth over my baby? No. If something seems off or abnormal, I will run to a hospital or a doctor to get help.

The issue I find irritating is the notion that a woman choosing to UC must have all the "right" motives, reasons and mindsets to make her choice valid, whereas a woman can stroll into a hospital and give birth without the slightest backlash. Her motives and rationale is never questioned, she is not blamed if something goes wrong and life goes on.

I'm ranting, so I guess I'm done.

Kristi

[erin_brycesmom]

the breasfeeding thing strikes a chord with me. I believe in "unassisted breasfeeding, if you will. I have never sough help or assitance with BFing either of my babies...not from a nurse, not from an LC, not from anyone. BFing has been one of the easiest experiences of my life. Meanwhile I see mother after mother struggle and fight battles with it daily. Was I just lucky? I don't believe I was any luckier than most of them. I believe that most women have the ability to BF easily just like I did. I put 100% trust in my body to do what it needed to do *OR* for it to let me know when something was wrong. When I read other women's BFing horror stories some of the "problems" they had were things that happened to me as well only I did not view them as problems and I did what came naturally to me and carried on with my wonderful nursing relationship. I think so often the advice given by even well meaning/educated LCs just makes things worse because BFing is not one size fits all. I think getting in touch with your body and trusting your instincts is the most important aspect to successful BFing.

I have been bashed (for lack of a better word) for my views on this because so many think it is important to have more awareness for the problems associated with BFing and more assitance for those issues and I do agree that all of that can be good but I still think *some* women would be better off if they ignored every bit of BFing advice and just looked inward and did it on their own. I think there is definitely a place for both.

Anyway, my point is that I think there is a place for both assisted and unassited birth as well.

~Erin

[Kidzaplenty]

Originally Posted by ~~Mama2B~~

The issue I find irritating is the notion that a woman choosing to UC must have all the "right" motives, reasons and mindsets to make her choice valid, whereas a woman can stroll into a hospital and give birth without the slightest backlash. Her motives and rationale is never questioned, she is not blamed if something goes wrong and life goes on.

ITA with this. I think that "motivating" reasons as just a map. I believe that most every woman can benefit from HB or UC no matter what her motives. I also believe that it is just as safe, no matter the motives.

So I may not agree with so-and-so's motives (say, her husband made her do it), but that does not mean that her doing it "because" her husband made her do it will make it any less safe than if she had gone to the hospital. On the other hand, I DO believe that if she goes to the hospital "because her husband made her do it" she could be worse off. So motives or no motives, I believe HB or UC are still the best (at least equally as save, with UC, IMHO, being more safe).

Originally Posted by erin_brycesmom

the breastfeeding thing strikes a chord with me. I believe in "unassisted breastfeeding, if you will. I have never sough help or assistance with BFing either of my babies...not from a nurse, not from an LC, not from anyone. BFing has been one of the easiest experiences of my life. Meanwhile I see mother after mother struggle and fight battles with it daily. Was I just lucky? I don't believe I was any luckier than most of them. I believe that most women have the ability to BF easily just like I did. I put 100% trust in my body to do what it needed to do *OR* for it to let me know when something was wrong. When I read other women's BFing horror stories some of the "problems" they had were things that happened to me as well only I did not view them as problems and I did what came naturally to me and carried on with my wonderful nursing relationship. I think so often the advice given by even well meaning/educated LCs just makes things worse because BFing is not one size fits all. I think getting in touch with your body and trusting your instincts is the most important aspect to successful BFing.

ITA with this also. I believe that many women that have trouble with BF are because of all the "help" and "advice" they get from friends, family, and well meaning strangers, as well as nurses and others at the hospital. That, and combined with all the "hospital" birth stuff; drugs, separation right away, formula and fluids given to baby, and so on. It's no wonder that there are so many mothers that have trouble BFing.

For me, I never was raised watching anyone BF. I don't think I ever saw my Mom do it, or anyone else for that matter. But BFing was just what you were "suppose" to do when you had a baby. No one told me this, no one had to. If we were given milk for our babies naturally, then it must be best to give them that instead of powder stuff, right? :

So when I had my first baby and began BFing, I had no trouble at all. The only time "advice" and "opinions" became a problem for me was when I was told I should wean Baby at 5 months old (which I did )

I have successively BF seven babies "unassisted". And have wonderful memories. My children will never be able to say, "they never say BFing" like I am able to say. And I am proud! They will be second generation experts in HB-UC-EBF. My son already expresses that his wife will not go to a hospital "just" to have a baby! And he is only 10.

[accountclosed3]

I believe that most women have the ability to BF easily just like I did. I put 100% trust in my body to do what it needed to do *OR* for it to let me know when something was wrong. When I read other women's BFing horror stories some of the "problems" they had were things that happened to me as well only I did not view them as problems and I did what came naturally to me and carried on with my wonderful nursing relationship. I think so often the advice given by even well meaning/educated LCs just makes things worse because BFing is not one size fits all. I think getting in touch with your body and trusting your instincts is the most important aspect to successful BFing.

this might sound funny, but i'm retreating for the baby moon in order to avoid meddlin'.

my DH and I had a huge sit-down with my ILs a few weeks ago. during this sit-down, we talked about a lot of things: our move, our process in trying to secure a job in order to move, our process once we move to establish a home and new career for DH, my process in establishing a home and my work-life (finding balance in that), and our tenative goals for TTC.

i talked about when we would TTC, that we would HB, and that we were going to do a baby moon retreat. we also told them that we are going to AP.

the reason for this is that i realized almost immediately that my MIL or my mother would LOVE to visit the moment the baby was born (or be present) and that for me, that would be an absolute nightmare. Both women are rather high strung, my MIL more so, and my MIL is a negative, negative judgemental person.

She is well meaning, i understand this, but she's down-right meddlesome. she believes that there are ways that things "should be" done and any other way is "wrong" and makes you a "bad person" if you do them that way.

i realized that my hsuband and i are well read and emotionally prepared for many aspects of parenting--as well as becoming more responsible for ourselves and our finances to prepare us for this process. But, we also know that there is a 'practicum' to this knowledge called "actually having a baby" and that great sense of awe (and probably a bit of sublime-styled fear) when you hold that little person and go "now i have to figure out how to make sure i don't kill you or get you killed in the next 20 years!"

we want to lotus birth, to EC, to avoid circ. These are "bad" things to my MIL, as is AP ("i've heard that AP is really bad for kids!"--her direct response when told we were going to AP). well, i assume they are. i haven't told her about them.

i figure that i'd like that first month or 6 weeks with the baby to be time for DH and I--alone and unassisted/unhindered--to learn how to be parents and apply these things that we're learning about now and figure out what works for us (all three of us--him, me, baby!).

my MIL is not too happy. She moans and whines. All of her friends get to go to the hospital to watch the birth or they get to go and see the baby right after the c-section. they get to see their grandchildren right way--and help out (i read that as meddle).

and on top of that, since we are moving, my MIL said "well, if we can't come to see theb aby right away, then i guess you'll be bringing the baby to us, right?' and i said 'no, because we're not going to fly with the baby or do extensive travel for the first year at least, maybe more' and she said "but so-and-so's daughter flew to five different states with her week-old daughter to visit all the major relatives." and i said "too bad so-and-so raised an idiot.'

sometimes, i get caustic, i'm sorry. please forgive that. just, a new immune system, fed formula, on an airplane four or five times in a couple of weeks is just too much stupidity for me to keep m mouth shut. LOL

yeah, so, yeah.

[moonfirefaery]

The issue I find irritating is the notion that a woman choosing to UC must have all the "right" motives, reasons and mindsets to make her choice valid, whereas a woman can stroll into a hospital and give birth without the slightest backlash. Her motives and rationale is never questioned, she is not blamed if something goes wrong and life goes on.

Additionally they have to have lots of research and statistics to back it up, and they sometimes really have to fight for it. It's ridiculous.

I believe that many women that have trouble with BF are because of all the "help" and "advice" they get from friends, family, and well meaning strangers, as well as nurses and others at the hospital

I agree. I think if we all had a "Do it yourself, but DO IT. Try everything you can think of, and find out what works for you" sort of attitude, maybe there would be less problems. Help would be beneficial if we had reliable sources, but unfortunately, we don't. Even LCs can be full of misinformation. You know, I think the best person to ask if you need to would be a woman who breastfed like 3 kids up until they were 3 LOL. She's been down the block and probably won't steer ya wrong!!

Most of my relatives are freaking out about the UC too, going on about how much more safe hospitals are and how I should at least have a midwife present...