Discussion about UC birth - Page 5

[caedmyn]

This is a great thread--got me thinking about how my homebirth went and what, if anything, I would like to do different with the next baby. It also made me think about how I could birth with fewer "interventions", although really there were very few in my birth.

I had a mostly unattended homebirth--my labor went much faster than I expected and I was in second stage labor when DH and the midwife arrived. I actually liked being alone for most of labor--nobody was there to try to get me to eat or drink (which DH would have done), or to tell me not to do housework, or whatever. But it was scary toward the end when I knew the baby was ready to come now and there was no one there. Even though I knew (and told myself) that if the baby came when I was alone it would be just fine, I was still scared. Whether I would have felt differently if DH had been there with me, but not the midwife, I don't know. Once they arrived there was a little more "intervention", although not a whole lot. I went on my knees to push (that's what felt natural). The midwife checked me and said the baby's head was right there (yeah, I knew that)--it didn't bother me and I couldn't feel the check, but I'm glad that was the only one there was--I was planning to refuse checks before I felt ready to push anyway. She did perineum support during pushes, from behind, but I wasn't really aware of it other than knowing she was doing it. She did also listen to the heartbeat once, after my water broke, which I was okay with, also. After the birth she was mostly concerned with making sure the baby stayed warm and with helping us get started nursing. There was never a second midwife/assistant there as it happened so quickly. I absolutely loved my midwife, and she was very hands off overall during pregnancy and birth--unfortunately we've moved so I'll have to find a different one for my next birth.

I think for my next birth (ideally) I will have DH there the whole time, but I may be in a different room, or even send him out for a while, since things went well and I liked being alone for most of labor (although I also want the reassurance next time of having someone else there for support if I want them). I will probably wait (although not quite so long!) to call for the midwife since I don't want dilation checks or much fetal monitoring, anyway. I think I would prefer either to not have a second midwife/assistant present, or for them to be in a different part of the house and not be at the birth unless there is a complication. I might think about having the midwife be more off in a corner during the birth, too, although the perineum support seems like a good idea and that's not something I want to do myself (and I don't think DH would feel comfortable doing it, either). I think I will have the midwife back off a little more after the birth, also, since now I know what to expect and what needs to be done afterward. (Does it sound like I'm starting to lean a little toward an unassisted-but-attended birth?)

I personally don't feel comfortable with UC. I feel more comfortable having an attendant at least present, and I don't think I could live with myself if something did happen with a (planned) UC, whereas I think I could live with myself if something happened with a homebirth. But if I were in a situation where I couldn't find a midwife I was comfortable with, or one wasn't an option, I would seriously seriously consider UC before going to a hospital.

Thanks for giving me a chance to process my homebirth and prepare for the next one

[cottonwood]

Originally Posted by Rico'sAlice

And although they are not really acceptable according to the scientific rules of statistical sampling, the info at unhinderedliving seems to the best actual stats on planned UC we have at this point, and it is very positive.

Ours here are limited (only tracking live births and transfers at this point) but we have a bit larger group (of close to 200.) Our transfer rate is 7% (higher than hers) and c-section rate is about 1.5%. There may be a bit of cross-over, with about 35 of our births happening before her study ended. She also didn't have any deaths, and we have one reported.

[haleyelianasmom]

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

I'd suggest Gentle Birth, Gentle Mothering (written by a doctor) as an introduction to the benefits of undisturbed birth.

who is it by? I can't find it on Amazon (or at our library!)

[cottonwood]

Originally Posted by haleyelianasmom

who is it by? I can't find it on Amazon (or at our library!)

Sorry! Sarah J. Buckley, MD

http://sarahjbuckley.com/html/gentle...-mothering.htm

[mwherbs]

mom2seven wrote>>>"Personally, esp. after having a homebirth that turned UC, I know that for me, I don't want to be in that headspace during the birth. I want to turn the 'thinking' part of my brain off and let my midwife deal with any issues that might arise."

so what is your UC story?
It is not just you but I think most people do not want to be tooling the finer points and going into labor land at the same time. Odent talks about this and is even careful during pregnancy/prenatals to recommend less clinical care and more community like sing-a-long because too much clinical focus ends up equaling too much stress-
not disturbing birth is nearly a lost skill in our society- and there are new things in the mix all the time- like a generation of moms who as infants were in daycare- so does institution=home and safety to these women on a deeper unconcious level?

people talk about brainwashing but women are who they are when they come to birth "brainwashed" or not- the alternative birth movement is rife with thinking that we have to know every tiny detail about birth this is it's own culture and you know what even if you are completely ignorant a baby will come out so we are guilty of our own biases but more than education what I want to is integration in care around birth

[crazy_eights]

My hb turned UC story is merely this - had a 50 minute labor, mw lives 1 hr. away. Doula was freaking out, cord around neck, sticky shoulders and I was in the bathtub. I had to basically talk dh and the doula through what we were going to do, but I did need assistance moving and squating, as well as dealing with the CAN.

[mwherbs]

Originally Posted by mom2seven

My hb turned UC story is merely this - had a 50 minute labor, mw lives 1 hr. away. Doula was freaking out, cord around neck, sticky shoulders and I was in the bathtub. I had to basically talk dh and the doula through what we were going to do, but I did need assistance moving and squating, as well as dealing with the CAN.

whew a 50 min labor alone is alot to integrate-- our #2 was born in 1 hr - half of that was spent in the car...
I have one friend who had 3 labors this fast...
I also find it hard to be the most organized and calmest head when it is happening to me- it is absolutely just not fair-I don't like the division.

so what did you do? how did you manage it? how long was the baby stuck?

[crazy_eights]

Originally Posted by mwherbs

whew a 50 min labor alone is alot to integrate-- our #2 was born in 1 hr - half of that was spent in the car...
I have one friend who had 3 labors this fast...

Yeah, tell me about it. I've had 4 that were under 1 1/2 hour.

I also find it hard to be the most organized and calmest head when it is happening to me- it is absolutely just not fair-I don't like the division.

so what did you do? how did you manage it? how long was the baby stuck?

I don't know how long the baby was stuck - it seemed a long time. Enough time for the bathtub to drain. The doula was trying to get me out of the water and I said, 'if you are really worried about it, let the water out'. It was totally unnecessary, but whatever. Anywho, yelled for dh to come help, he came in and helped me get one leg up and out she came. Her head was PURPLE for a day or so after, but she pinked up right away and was fine. I'm really glad she didn't need more extensive manouvers to get her out though.

[~~Mama2B~~]

Originally Posted by prettypixels

Well, first of all, I'd guess that the majority of women planning homebirths attended by a midwife do trust their bodies to give birth, or they'd go straight to the hospital. I surely do trust my BODY to give birth. I am not so sure however, of trusting my own HEAD while I am giving birth. It's not easy to overcome a lifetime of being told it is going to be horrible, it is going to be painful, you're going to need drugs, you're stupid to deny yourself drugs, etc. Not to mention the worries that most birthing moms have about the things that can (and do, sometimes) go wrong. That is all head stuff.

I did not hire a midwife to "fix" my body or "deliver me" from labor. I hired her to support me emotionally through the labor, to help me in the event of something I couldn't handle on my own, and to be there for me in the event that something goes wrong and I need a hospital transfer. I can tell you unabashedly that in the event I do need to go to a hospital, I'd 100 times prefer being there WITH MY MIDWIFE as my advocate... so my husband can focus on me and our baby, and I can focus on doing what I need to do instead of fighting all those silly battles that come with being in a hospital.

Does that seem like not trusting my body? I guess it might to someone who believes with every fiber of their being that their birth will go 100% perfectly. My best friend had two preemies and I have had so many friends have soooooo many problems... I could debate with you at length about whether or not medicine helped or hindered some of those problems... but for me, I want my bases covered. I want someone who knows what they are doing there with me to help my BRAIN through this process. My brain is always the trouble, darnit.

I'm all for women being given every option in the world to choose the birth that is perfect for THEM. But I would not presume to determine what is perfect for someone else, and I wouldn't assume that someone else is uneducated about their body or untrusting of their body because their choice is different from yours.



Agreed, that the majority of women would survive... after all, humanity is HERE after all these millions of years epidural-less. But frankly I'd prefer to do more than survive... I'd prefer to feel safe, secure, and relaxed through my birth. And if a midwife that I trust will enable me to do that, or if being in the hospital would enable me to do that, or if being home alone would enable me to do that, those are all valid choices.

As I said before, the most important thing is that the mother feel comfortable and safe. I'm not encouraging everyone in the world to birth a certain way. In fact, the post you're responding to merely advocates that women should not feel obligated or unable to birth any other way than society teaches.

You said,
"Does that seem like not trusting my body? I guess it might to someone who believes with every fiber of their being that their birth will go 100% perfectly. My best friend had two preemies and I have had so many friends have soooooo many problems... I could debate with you at length about whether or not medicine helped or hindered some of those problems... but for me, I want my bases covered. I want someone who knows what they are doing there with me to help my BRAIN through this process. My brain is always the trouble, darnit. "

You don't know me or know how I feel or what I think. I don't believe that every birth will go 100% perfectly. However, I believe in the power of thought, affirmation, suggestion and prayer to ease stress and help make delivery more smooth. Are there women who have sick babies, preemie babies, still born babies, etc. and no one is to blame? Absolutely. I never hinted that this was not the case.

While many babies do struggle, have emergencies during birth and die, the vast majority of babies born to healthy women live and are born healthy and fully developed. While I am aware of the possible troubles that potentially could arise, I am much more focused on the probability that I will have a normal, healthy birth and a baby.

Like you, I'd also prefer to feel safe, secure, and relaxed through my birth. That is precisely why I choose to view birth as a normal, spiritual, personal part of the human life cycle. It is not a medical crisis, a critical emergency, and illness or a disablitiy. By understanding what birth really is and how it was designed to be, I become more safe, secure, and relaxed.

I don't know why you seem to be aiming hosility at me. I have tried to be polite and understanding in this thread. I don't presume to tell other women what birth they should have, nor do I assume that women are uneducated or untrusting if they choose a different method. However I DO assume that a woman who says, "I would be unable to survive birth without medication" or "I could not birth outside of a hospital" must be uneducated on alternate birthing methods and must not understand how the power of the female body. If they did, they would not make statements citing their body's inability to do its job.

If a woman weighs the evidence, studies the different options available to her for birth and chooses to have a medical birth, that is her choice and I have NEVER put anyone down for making that choice. The comment I made displayed my sorrow that many women don't even know that there are options available and have been brainwashed into believing their bodies are incapable or untrustworthy of giving birth uncontrolled.

Again, I don't know why you are directing your hostility towards me, as I have not made ungly or judgmental comments towards you. I'm sorry you choose to view me as a bigot or self-righteous, or whatever you think.

Kristi

[shell024]

But frankly I'd prefer to do more than survive... I'd prefer to feel safe, secure, and relaxed through my birth. And if a midwife that I trust will enable me to do that, or if being in the hospital would enable me to do that, or if being home alone would enable me to do that, those are all valid choices.

I feel the same, sort of. I'd prefer to do more than survive...I'd prefer to feel safe, secure, and relaxed through my birth, which means being at home, with no midwife there to possibly hinder the birth. You are right, they are all valid choices. No one said they weren't. I don't think anyone here is trying to judge whether your choices are right or wrong.

when I think of the birth as high risk, a la twins, non-frank breech, etc. I haven't quite swept out the cobwebs enough in my own psyche to determine why it is that I am willing to let go of control and trust the process with a low-risk birth (as determined by me and my own experience) and not with a higher-risk one. I think that back there is the idea that those births go better with an attendant, even though I am not sure that they really do.

Yes, it is very difficult to let go of control and trust the process when there are what seems to be higher risks. Often, it became easier for me to let go when I learned more about what it was I was worried about. The higher risks you mention aren't really more risk in my mind, just another variation. It is unfortunate that there aren't any "real" studies on UC, as then we may be able to see what the "dangers" are in comparison with hospital births, homebirths w/midwife, oops UCs, and planned, thought-out UCs.

I tried hard to make my first one as good as possible because I hate the idea of not knowing much when you're first a parent and making all your mistakes on the first and then being all sad about how your first one got short-changed. But now I don't want my next one to get a worse birth because it would be doubly bad to experience something bad when you've already had a good one and know what that's like.

I totally agree! I wanted so badly to birth my first child in the most gentle way possible, because I didn't want to start out with a bad taste in my mouth about birth. I didn't want to have to have a not-so-great experience be my reason for trying to have a better birth next time. I want each of my births to be as positive as they could be. While it was scary going against the grain and deciding to have a UC with my first, it was oh so empowering. Like a huge "AHA!" So there IS a way to bypass this huge negative block am having about giving birth. There is a way to break free from this weight on my shoulders. Once I decided to go the UC route, it was like almost-instant clarity. So THIS is what I've been searching for!

The difference in my husband between my first and fourth births was just incredible. What I remember of him during my first labor was not terrible, but it wasn't impressive either. He had no idea what to do for me and pretty much just sat there looking helpless and scared. With my last labor he was a rock. He was calm and passionate and nurturing. I think part of it was just getting used to what normal birth looks like. But it was also that he felt unsure of himself in a setting that was dominated by other women, and felt very inhibited and powerless (much like I felt, actually.)

Thank you for sharing that. It is very encouraging.

I feel more comfortable having an attendant at least present, and I don't think I could live with myself if something did happen with a (planned) UC, whereas I think I could live with myself if something happened with a homebirth.

I think this may have something to do with the sharing of the responsibility (?). I am not trying to judge anyone here, and am treading carefully with my words, as this can become a touchy subject. The possibilty of a death is a valid concern in ANY birth. It seems to get a little tricky when it comes to UC, because the issue of the parents soley carrying the responsibilty of the birth can be a bit scary to some when the thought of a death crosses the mind. It has definitely crossed my mind before. Obviously, it would all depend on circumstances and the mother's intuition about when to get help if she thought she needed it. I have read of some UCers who have had the intuition that something was majorly wrong but at the same time, that intuition told them that they were better off staying at home. That nothing more could be done by getting "help", that their babies would become subjects of test/analysis/etc and they would much rather spend that extremely sensitive grieving period in peace where they feel safe and loved. That is just the way some people feel. Others have intuitive messages that they are best off going straight to the hospital, NOW, and there is usually a reason in the end. I truly believe in going with your intuition, but it can be very difficult to really tune in to it, especially in distracting situations. Personally, I would be able to live with myself if we had to endure a death at home. Sure, there may be scrutiny from others like "WHY didn't they just go to the hospital??" but they have absolutely no right to judge a situation that they were no part of and have no understanding of, including what the parents' values, beliefs, and intentions may be. We are all human, and we all have different beliefs about life and death. There is a wide comfort range for all, and we just have to support each other in any situation like that.

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by shell024

I think this may have something to do with the sharing of the responsibility (?). I am not trying to judge anyone here, and am treading carefully with my words, as this can become a touchy subject. The possibilty of a death is a valid concern in ANY birth. It seems to get a little tricky when it comes to UC, because the issue of the parents soley carrying the responsibilty of the birth can be a bit scary to some when the thought of a death crosses the mind. It has definitely crossed my mind before. Obviously, it would all depend on circumstances and the mother's intuition about when to get help if she thought she needed it. I have read of some UCers who have had the intuition that something was majorly wrong but at the same time, that intuition told them that they were better off staying at home. That nothing more could be done by getting "help", that their babies would become subjects of test/analysis/etc and they would much rather spend that extremely sensitive grieving period in peace where they feel safe and loved. That is just the way some people feel. Others have intuitive messages that they are best off going straight to the hospital, NOW, and there is usually a reason in the end. I truly believe in going with your intuition, but it can be very difficult to really tune in to it, especially in distracting situations. Personally, I would be able to live with myself if we had to endure a death at home. Sure, there may be scrutiny from others like "WHY didn't they just go to the hospital??" but they have absolutely no right to judge a situation that they were no part of and have no understanding of, including what the parents' values, beliefs, and intentions may be. We are all human, and we all have different beliefs about life and death. There is a wide comfort range for all, and we just have to support each other in any situation like that.

For me it's not about sharing of responsibility (with homebirth vs. UC), it's about feeling more comfortable having someone there who is better trained to recognize and handle complications than I feel I am. I know how to do infant CPR, but if it was necessary, I would really prefer someone there to do it. I'm sure we could handle a cord wrapped around the neck, but again I would prefer someone else to be there for that. Same thing for maternal hemorrhage (sp?).

I personally don't feel fully convinced that UC is as safe as a midwife attended homebirth. I'm not trying to step on any toes with that statement--I know those who UC feel comfortable and confident with it, but I don't, so although I think birthing should be as natural and non-interventionist as possible, I prefer to birth with an attendant present. Just my feelings, though.

I'm sure there would be a tremendous amount of scrutiny and criticism if anything happened to a baby at home, whether it was a UC or a homebirth, although probably even more so with UC. I am fully confident that a homebirth is as safe as a hospital birth, or really much safer in terms of not having complications from unnecessary interventions. I can live with the very slight chance that a baby/mother might need instant emergency care that could only be provided in the hospital--I think the advantages of homebirth far outweigh the risks of that. But I don't feel the same way about the risks of UC vs the benefits of it (as compared to a homebirth).

Again, please don't take offense at this, it is only my personal feelings. That's why there's different choices in birthing--so people with different comfort levels can make the choice they feel most comfortable with

[mwherbs]

Originally Posted by pamamidwife

Perhaps those people who are new to the idea of unattended birth have questions, concerns, responses..perhaps those who are NOT new have some!

I'd like to start a discussion - a sane, rational, dialogue - about birth choices.

I've heard some UC birthers all lumped together as radical extremists that would rather die or have their baby die than go to the hospital. I think this is interesting, because I would venture to say that more UC birthers transport to err on the side of caution than maybe they would had they had an attendant present. Not that transporting is negative - that's not my intention to say, I just wanted to clear up some generalizations and stereotypes about those who choose to birth unattended.

As a midwife, many births I see are "unassisted". My definition of unassisted birth is one that happens under the woman's own power and her direction only. What I see UC birth being is "unattended". So, pardon if I get these crossed sometimes.
-----------snip-------------
Let's get it all out in the open. Let's discuss it. Ask questions. I ask that people are conscious of the UA when we go from here and refrain from name calling, generalizations or attacking.

(And this is NOT in the UC forum because frankly, those people have enough BS to deal with based on their choice and they deserve a haven of support)

I think that although Pam is asking for some pleasant discourse here I do not think it is her intention to quell any and all criticism other wise this discussion could happen just as easily on the UC forum which is set aside as a support group.

when BelgianSheepDog wrote a statement about studies it may not have been in the form of a question but does deserve an answer as she clearly had some questions on the midwifery thread just previous to this thread-

there are some studies done that have to do with some extreme religious populations that would not transfer care- and the numbers are not good from that study but as has been pointed out to me by members of MDC in the past this is not representative of the majority of the UC birthers who are on MDC and maybe that is a self-selecting group that does have lower risks---

the truth is that even on a national level the midwifery study numbers are not big enough to have achieved statistical importance when we are talking about millions of births and we have a group of 5000 or a group of 200 these are just drops in a bucket-- in the midwifery study Johnson and Daviss 1.7/1000 was the neonatal mortality rate for a range of risks from low to high if they were evaluated in medical terms.The reason I point to risk status is that in a low risk population neonatal death rate is 1/1000 in the hospital
( there is a trick to this number that has to do with definition of neonatal and infant mortality. the infant mortality rate has risen because they can keep babies alive during the neonatal period,29 days, so we don't know the true- birth related death rate of infants)
Maternal risks at midwife attended homebirths are much lower than in the hospital, hands down. how these numbers will play out in comparison will take years and years of studies at a rate of 5000 + births/year. I do not know how UC births will ever achieve statistical significance in this realm but to have a group of 200 with a neonatal death could that 1 baby be the one or nearly 2 per thousand ( depending on risk status) or is it going to add up to be 5 in 1000 ?

what other studies are there in support of UC birth ? other evidence?
without being attacking just asking for more information.

[hayley27]

Well done

Originally Posted by Kathryn

What a great thread! I am constantly put down (even on here) for doing UP with triplets and planning a homebirth (even though not UC). It's very frustrating and annoying, but I just keep my head high and know that I am letting my body do what it does best.

Hi Kathryn,

Just wanted to say well done stuff what others think this is your pregnancy and your babies. I suspect I'm pregnant with triplets (7w) and I always uc (not the first tho she came 8wks early...if I'd known I was in labor I would've UC her too.) Trust yourself and keep your head up.

Hayley xx

[hayley27]

Gentle Birth Gentle Mothering

Originally Posted by haleyelianasmom

who is it by? I can't find it on Amazon (or at our library!)

I personally know the doc who wrote the book her name is Sarah Buckley and she lives in my city...she is so lovely and she homebirthed her four.

Hayley

[cottonwood]

I'm sure there would be a tremendous amount of scrutiny and criticism if anything happened to a baby at home, whether it was a UC or a homebirth, although probably even more so with UC.

Yes. All of us choosing UC have to come to terms with this.

If my baby died in an assisted birth, I would say, "What if the doctor/midwife hadn't done this or that? What if my body malfunctioned because they were there?" The mother is ultimately responsible for her choice -- and therefore the outcome -- regardless of whether she's allowed others' involvement. Society sees it differently, though, and it's a heavy thing to know that you will be absolved of all blame if you just go along with public opinion of what is the "right" choice, but that you will be crushed with societal judgement otherwise.

You have to really believe in what you're doing. If my baby had died at my midwife-attended homebirth, the judgement that would have come my way would have been devastating. But it was more important to me to make what I felt was the best decision for me and my baby in the moment, than to ensure public approval no matter what, so I went ahead with that midwife-attended birth. I've come to feel the same way about UC. I believe it best for me and my baby, so I can't, in good conscience, make any other choice, even if it means that it makes me terribly vulnerable to condemnation from my community.

[cottonwood]

Originally Posted by mwherbs

in a low risk population neonatal death rate is 1/1000 in the hospital (there is a trick to this number that has to do with definition of neonatal and infant mortality. the infant mortality rate has risen because they can keep babies alive during the neonatal period, 29 days, so we don't know the true- birth related death rate of infants)

Right. Also, ill infants born in hospitals are pretty much put on life-support no matter what, whereas it would seem that parents who choose homebirth would also be slightly more likely to choose death over taking extreme measures to prolong life with poor prognosis.

I do not know how UC births will ever achieve statistical significance in this realm but to have a group of 200 with a neonatal death could that 1 baby be the one or nearly 2 per thousand ( depending on risk status) or is it going to add up to be 5 in 1000?

Right. It's also difficult because many UC births are not reported as UC births, out of fear of involvement of CPS or prosecution.

If you're going to UC, you can't put any weight on statistics, because we just don't have them and probably never will. I think about the homebirth movement beginning 40 years ago, well, they didn't have stats to go on, but they went ahead with it anyway because the philosophy and theory made sense to them. Somebody had to say, "well, this is enough for us to make this choice." We're in a similar situation, except that it's unlikely to ever progress to the point where philosophy and theory don't have to be enough.

[MamaTaraX]

After about a week, I have finally managed to read this entire thread. And I have nothing to add at the moment. I'm a future UCer, I just hope that my DH is on board with me by then. For now, I'm just gonna grab a brownie and enjoy the tactful conversation of our diverse members

Namaste, Tara

[georgia]

Hi, everyone Just popping over to see how things are going. Thanks for keeping it respectful Please PM me (or report) if you see a post that you're really concerned about rather than replying to the thread.

Carry on, mamas

[crazy_eights]

I just made the point elsewhere about how hospital death stats really don't tell the whole picture. They tell you nothing about quality of life. In hospital, you could resusitate a baby that would have died at home - and it will survive with enough of a brainstem to be vegetable. But that is a 'live birth' and not tossed into the death rate.

[sapphire_chan]

Do statistics really matter in these cases? Except as ways to convince reluctant support people, I mean.