general philosophic question about midwives - Page 2

[ZeldasMom]

Originally Posted by mwherbs

home birth as a choice may have to do more with...being treated as an individual rather than just another person in an institution. so less about patriarchy and more about personal choice anti-institutionalization.
I relate this to what Robert Bly talks about in the post-industrial society, where the value of the individual has fallen and we are all struggling for our place and to be treatend as an individual rather than tramped by the machine.

This was true for me. Though patriarchal control of women's bodies was part of it too. If men had the babies I don't think it would be as bad as it is now for women.

[zoebird]

fourth wave, or modern, feminism focuses on individual agency and on the rights (human and civil) for which women are struggling. the movement expanded beyond women to include children and sexual minorities as well.

the core of the philosophy right now is reaching beyond the civil and human rights work and into the individual, spiritual territories. not in a sense of 'women must do X' but rather, in the idea that a woman's sense of self or spirituality (or agency) can determine what is appropriate for her, and that her rights to those choices (socially and governmentally) should be supported. this is also extended to child soveriegnty, male soveriegnty--basicly everyone's agency is supported.

thus, a woman can choose to 'submit' to her husband as a spiritual discipline or spiritual call and should be supported in that decision absolutely--so long as it serves her. thus also, a woman can choose to work outside of the home, to formulate a different relationship with her husband, and be supported in this in multiple ways--including the civil right of equal pay for equal work, but particularly in her social standing as being seen as an individual with equal agency.

to this: "why must it be feminist to not want to be told how you will birth your own baby?" and following--

the largest social issue that women face is the social problem of the patriachial notion that women do not ahve enough agency or intellect to make this decision and therefore a machine (such as government, or other social constructin such as a church, workplace, etc) must make those decisions for her.

this has been one of the largest underlying issues of feminism since it's inception in the Elizabethan era (the beginning of feminism as we know it). our society has not viewed women as individuals with equal agency for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. while the movement focused on larger, outside issues from the 1700s onward (rights to vote which denoted women as 'individuals with rights'; reproductive rights, workers rights, etc), with the largest impacts coming through political action in the 1900s, women in the fourth wave of feminism (current wave) are beginning to recognize that the underlying reason why women didn't have these civil and human rights before is because of the way that women are viewed, defined, and percieved.

with this, the idea of highlighting women's agency--or ability to make decisions for herself, her soveriegnty over her own life, her spiritual or essential equality to men (even though men and women ARE different and complimentary--we are still equals)--came to the fore of the movement.

this movement, then, focuses on choice and feminism INCLUDES any person who wants to make free decisions about how they run their lives without social stigma or ostracism and without violation of human and civil rights.

Therefore, any person who is for a person's right to choose how to live their own lives, supportive of their agency in this matter, against social stigmata or ostracism, and against violating human and civil rights when making these personal decisions is a feminist.

And, considering that many governmental and hospital policies regarding birth undermine agency, violate basic human and civil rights, and lead to strong social stigma or ostracism (many stories here talk about "scare" providers--this is ostracism), HB and UC are definately well within the context and constructs of modern feminism as an aspect of agency (the ability to make a choice), and civil and human rights (the choice made and allowable by law), and the work to change our overall culture to be supportive of this birth model (moving away from the stigma and ostracism both vertical and horizontal) to one of many social standards.

[lolar2]

I am definitely a feminist, and that definitely is one of the biggest reasons I began researching homebirth.

[phoebemommy]

I chose homebirth for libertarian reasons much more than feminist ones. As I learned about American birth and pregnancy, though, I was baffled that it isn't more of a feminist issue than it is (in terms of mainstream feminism). I just don't understand why pregnancy and birth in general aren't really a part of the reproductive rights movement.

[Kitten]

I am a little disturbed by the suggestion by a few people here that feminism, especially feminism of the 60s and 70s, was somehow scornful of or unsupportive of stay-at-home moms. There were a few feminists back then who didn't like women being stay-at-home moms, true. But by and large feminists were, and still are, extremely supportive of SAHMs.

Gloria Steinem, among others, actually thought SAHMs should be receiving their own salary and social security benefits for being SAHMs and frequently mentioned this in her speeches. Go read the first few chapters of [U]Mommy Myth[U] by Susan J. Douglas and Meredith W. Michaels if you don't believe me.

For women who dislike feminism because they think early feminists thought women should not be SAHMs, this is a LIE you have been told by the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Phyllis Schafly, etc. Sorry to be a butt-insky and hope I won't hijack this thread, I just can't stand to see these lies and misconceptions perpetuated. :

[yonit]

I find this question interesting. But what seems to be forgotten here is that a lot of the current medicalized hospital birth culture is a creation of feminism in many ways.

Women were demanding better pain relief for labor. They argued that by making women suffer they were establishing their male dominance. It was most definitely a "feminist issue" And so the slippery slope began.

It is interesting to see how it has turned around and now wanting to birth at home is a "feminist" statement.

IMO, the true feminist issue is informed, educated choice. Women should be treated as intelligent beings that can make their own decisions based on available information and facts - and are supported no matter what that choice is- that should be the feminist issue. Not how a woman choose to give birth.

[umami_mommy]

feminism isn't a dirty word you know.

feminism doesn't mean man hating. feminism doesn't mean hostile to women who choose to not work outside the house.

there is nothing wrong with calling oneself a feminist, and as my friend lily-rose says "i'll be a post-feminist in a post-patriarchy."

[lolalola]

What a fabulous discussion. I would say that midwifery is still connected to the feminist movement. Where I live, midwifery is not legalized or even recognized as a legitimate profession. There are no training institutions for aspiring midwives, and there are currently only 4 women who serve a population of several hundred thousand. I believe that feminism is less about "choice" and more about identifying women's oppression and fighting for women's RIGHTS. It is a sad testimony to the ingrained values and norms of patriarchy that women continue to argue with one another over the so-called "choices" we as women make. We are not all "free" to make the same choices. Women come from various social, economic, ethnic, and cultural positions which makes talking about choice almost irrelevant. I truly believe that the feminist movement is focused on framing discussions in terms of women's rights. All women should have the RIGHT to SAFE childbirth, all women should have the RIGHT to care for their children, and all women should have the RIGHT to provide for their children. However, this is not the way it is, and until it is, I will proudly call myself a feminist.

[mama_at_home]

I think all women should have the right to birth where they feel most comfortable. No one has the right to tell a woman where to give birth, and I am grateful for that. It felt empowering for me to make the educated decision to give birth at home in the way I wanted to, and in the presence of only people I chose. I really don't know if feminism relates to homebirthing or not. For me it is just important that the government not dictate where and/or how women give birth. I was lucky enough to have found 2 wonderful, experience midwives to assist in my twin homebirth, but many moms of twins are not so fortunate. It really angers me all the restrictions the government places on midwives and in my opinion they have no right to do that. Many of my twin mama friends had to "secretly" give birth at home because their midwives could have gotten in trouble for it. That is just wrong! Sorry, I am getting off topic a little. Basically for me I just think the government needs to take their hands off and allow midwives and women to make their own decisions and live with the consequences.

[zoebird]

both homebirth/natural birth and ob/gyn care were aspects of the earlier waves of feminism as well as the current one.

socially, women wanted choice and during the late 60s and 70s were looking for natural births both in the hospital and in the home.

at the same time, we had health care equity issues for poor women and women of color and other forms of minority status. these women had limited access to medical care that they may have wanted/needed, and so part of the feminist political agenda was to find ways for women to access this 'necessary' care. the term necessary was focused on health-care equality (equal access to health care through gov't clinics and organizations like planned parenhood, etc), not on the 'necessity' for health care.

often, this is what is confused as the 'slippery slope' of medicalized births. In fact, that slope began with ob/gyns of the late 1800s and early 1900s who moved to get rid of or wipe out midwifery in favor of their career advancement, and who would promise pain free and safer births. the broad use of drugs for pain-free births largely came about when hospitals needed to justify paying a full time anesthesiologist to the L&D floor/wing of their hospitals and therefore 'pushed' for the use of epidurals in the 50s and 60s.

so, it really wasn't feminism that caused this medicalized birthing aspect, but a combination of wanting health care equity (for women and children who would need health care during pregnancy/birth) and the medicalization of birth culturally through the push in the medical field itself.

[the_lissa]

For me, feminism was definitely one of the reason I chose homebirth/midwifery. Can't type more now. NAK.

[aprilushka]

Not really. It's more related to how a woman feels about her body and birth and what she thinks would feel best and be safest, which may or may not have anything to do with feminism, as well as, in many cases, prior birth experiences within the "system".

[Molck]

DH and I are feminists, and I would say that is a factor in our decision to homebirth, as well as our decision that I will stay at home while he works outside the home. I do think it's also often a factor in women's decision to medicate their births and put their children in daycare. However, since hospital birth is the norm, it is also the decision unempowere/uninformed women will tend to make. HBers are generally more conscious about birth and what they want, which perhaps could account for HBers tending to be feminists.

On a side note: when I took the Heart and Hands Midwifery courses, I definitely felt female empowerment came up often, sometimes with male-negative undertones. This was nothing blatant and very well could have been the result of my own preconceptions and stereotypes about midwifery.

[boscopup]

Originally Posted by Kitten

I am a little disturbed by the suggestion by a few people here that feminism, especially feminism of the 60s and 70s, was somehow scornful of or unsupportive of stay-at-home moms.

Since I'm one that said "I'm definitely not a feminist", I want to clarify... I am not saying anything against those who are feminists. I'm not saying feminism is a dirty word. I'm just saying I'm not a feminist. I don't agree with the issues that the mainstream feminist groups tend to push these days, and I will not associate myself with a group that I disagree with. It's as simple as that. I don't think anyone is bad or wrong for being a feminist. I was simply stating that I'm not one, but I still believe in homebirth, and that it just has nothing to do with feminism for me. That's all. Nothing against those who are feminists. Just answering the OP's question.

I have ALOT of different opinions from the majority of MDCers here... from politics to some aspects of parenting (I'm in agreement with MDC on some parenting aspects and not on others - I just don't post about the things where I'm not in agreement, since I know what MDC stands for on those topics). But even though I have different opinions on many subjects and am not a full up NFL'er, I still believe very strongly in homebirth and in women's right to choose homebirth (or hospital birth). Obviously, that last sentence would be a "feminist" statement, so yes, there are some feminist qualities in me. But I do not call myself a feminist, as I do not share the same opinions on many of the issues that the feminist groups today speak out about.

But did I choose a homebirth because I want women to have a choice? No. It had nothing to do with society or men vs. women or "being a woman" or anything like that. It's quite simply the fact that I believe my body doesn't need the medical interventions typically used in the hospital, and the best way to avoid that is to birth in the comfort of my own home (well in my case, it's a "birth house" 15 minutes away, since attended homebirth is illegal in my state ). If men gave birth, I'd still feel the same way. I have a male OB, as the female OBs in my area are some of the worst OBs you'll find (the type that say "You will have to have a C-section because you're overweight" to a woman who is of average overweightness for this country). I love my OB, and if I have to be in the hospital for any reason, I know he will give me the best birth possible for that situation, since he really listens to women and does what they want. I don't think my OB is a feminist either... he's just one that listens to his patients, and well, his patients all happen to be women because of the profession he's in.

[Sweetiemommy]

Wow, fascinating discussion - your research effort sounds great! I am sadly not surprised by the negative tone that is used to describe feminism. In my situation, homebirth and midwifery are very connected with feminism. Without freedom and choice to control one's own body - birth choices are not possible. An OB (male or female) is simply not trained to respond to a woman's individual birthing abilities. He or she is focused on a medical definition of "progressing" or "failure" to do so and subjects the female body to an unrealistic/male dominated way of looking at birth. From any feminist perspective (cultural/radical/social/marxist) one could argue that midwifery and homebirth are correlated with feminist philosophy. Now whether or not women choose to associate this with their choice is your actual question. I do, but probably because I do not see feminism as a negative association. Feminism, the other F-word, right? :

[umami_mommy]

i believe that in order to truly understand comtemporary midwifery and it's connection to feminism or womanism or any other term you want to use for women's empowerment, one must know and understand the history of the burning times in europe.

during the middle ages in europe, 1000s or even millions of people were put to death by the chucrch for heresy. everyone lived under the fear of being arrested, tortured and killed. midwives, becuase of their unique social position, usually widowed or unmarried women with their own land, house or weath, we especially targeted. when someone was arrested, their wealth reverted to the local church parish. since midwives had no man to speak for them or bribe the church, they were easy targets. since they possessed secret knowledge of the body and birth, many were afraid of them. and since women were of "of the devil" anyway and the pain of child birth was punishment from god for getting thrown out of eden, why should midwives help women anyway? culturally they were loved and hated at the same time.

midwife and witch became pretty much the same word and in some places, like germany, church officals set out specifically to eliminate midwives.

the end of midwifery in europe pretty much completed the domination of women by both the church and men. women no longer had anyone or anywhere they could go for help or support. they were on their own for birth and any woman who tried to help was accused of witchcraft. a terrifying proposistion.

during the victorian era the practice of "women's medicine" came about for wealthy women and the practice of women birthing in hospitals became pretty standard in this country in the early part of this century, though many poor imigrants prefered to stay home becuase of "child bed fever" in hospitals. midwifery was never competely stamped ot by the church, but a socal stigma was attached to it, just like breastfeeding. poor women birthed ta home, poor women nursed, it was shameful. in this country a tradition of rural african american and southern midwivery persisted and is still alive. however, many many states have tried hard to outlaw direct entry midwifery. (though it still persists)

and interesting how in europe, who tried to hard to elimate midwives, they are so much more readily accepted there for all kinds of normal everyday care.

to blame feminsim for the medicalization of birth in this country is to lack an understanding of the history of both midwifery, women's medical care, and feminism.

it's hard for younger women to understand that BIRTH CONTROL USED TO BE ILLEGAL IN THIS COUNTRY. all we think about is abortion. but it used to be a women couldn't legally NOT get pregnant in a marriage. she was legally not able to refuse sex from her husband, and she could not use birth control. the first wave of feminism in thsi country focused mostly on voting rights, but magaret sanger also worked tirelessly for a woman's right to control her reproduction. (sadly she spun off into eugenics and race control, but that's another story) second wave feminism picked up the battle of reproductive freedom. which included a woman's right to birth control AND safe and accessable abortion.

midwifery IS all about feminism. but the connection goes all the way back, to before the beggining of the middle ages. before there was a concept of feminism at all. in fact in some ways it could be considered the first feminism.

are you glad you can vote if you want? are you glad you can go to college and get an education? how about a drivers license? are you happy to have your own credit? are you glad that you do not need any one's permission to open a bank account? how about having the right to not be commited to a mental hospiatl on your husband's say so? or the right to not be raped in your own home? are you glad that if your husband hit you, you could have him arrested and he could NOT legally run off with your children? are you glad no one can legally harass you at work, grope you or demote you because you won't have sex with them? are you glad you can collect your own pention and social security? that if you had to there is safe affordable daycare for your child? that you can legally view your own medical records?

(i could go on and an on)

if you are glad you have the right to all these things, then thank a feminist, because women would have none of these things without first and second wave feminism, as glaringly imperfect as both of thse movements have been.

[lolalola]

Originally Posted by honeybeedreams=QUOTE

to blame feminsim for the medicalization of birth in this country is to lack an understanding of the history of both midwifery, women's medical care, and feminism.

From a sociological perspective, I think it is important to keep in mind that historically, women have been/and continue to be, active participants in the medicalization of pregnancy and childbirth, and not mere victims of it's development. As a pp mentioned, many women (esp upper class women) began demanding freedom from the pain associated with childbirth, and as a result, turned to the medical community for the relief it could offer. Certainly this lead to an increase in the interest in studies regarding pregnancy/childbirth, which lead to the increasing interventions we see today. So while we cannot blame feminism for the medicalization of birth in the West, we should recognize the part that women (some feminists, some not) have played in it's development. I believe that the connection between midwifery and the contemporary feminist movement is the understanding that in general, Western women have given over their authority to the medical model of childbirth, and there is an increasingly active movement to reclaim that power and authority.

[umami_mommy]

while i agree for the most part with this, i don't think it really addresses that poor and working class women have been most opressed by medical dominace of women's reproductive health... including forced sterilzation, poor access to good prenatal care and information about empowered birth and breastfeeding and little to no access to acurate birth control information and abortion. (have you ever seen the way poor 14 year old girls in labor are treated in most hospitals? i have, i used to work in the L&D unit in an inner city hospital)

[lolalola]

Originally Posted by honeybeedreams

while i agree for the most part with this, i don't think it really addresses that poor and working class women have been most opressed by medical dominace of women's reproductive health... including forced sterilzation, poor access to good prenatal care and information about empowered birth and breastfeeding and little to no access to acurate birth control information and abortion. (have you ever seen the way poor 14 year old girls in labor are treated in most hospitals? i have, i used to work in the L&D unit in an inner city hospital)

Oh, please don't get me wrong, I am in 100% agreement with you here!
And, while I haven't been privy to first-hand exposure to the way young, poor women are treated in hospital as you have, I am well aware of how socially-constructed our notions of motherhood are. (i.e. the dichotomy between "good" and "bad" mothers).

[MAMom]

Originally Posted by pregnantresearcher

In the 60s & 70s, using a midwife was connected to feminism. Do you think it still is today, or is some other social movement or reasoning coming into play?

For me personally, the answer is yes, in a sense. For me one of the things that bothers me most about the profession of obstetrics is that it is so patriarchal (for both male & female OB's). I don't believe that men belong in the field, so I suppose that is actually anti-feminist. Men have never given birth, never will give birth, and can't truly understand birth.

I feel the same way about some of the young, fresh out-of-school midwives that I've dealt with, that maybe they don't belong in the profession quite yet. They haven't had the reverence for birth that the seasoned midwives I have seen do. But at least they do have the perspective of being a woman that male docs don't.

Gloria Steinem gives what she calls a "dictionary definition" of feminism as "someone, which can be a woman or a man, who believes in the full social, economic, political equality of women and men". Certainly not all women who are using midwives believe in this equality.

A lot of the women that I know online from my c-section support group are using midwives (esp. homebirth/lay/direct-entry/CP midwives) because they had a bad birth experience the first time around and are determined to not repeat it (me included, though I went from a CNM OB-controlled practice the first time to a CPM for the 2nd).
___________________________________
SAHM to a spectacular DS (5/2003) & delightful DD (2/2006 HBAC!)
“Unlike all other important jobs, parenting is the one job for which we get no formal preparation, education or training.” ~ Pam Leo