concerns about dd's reactions to school

[Terabith]

My daughter is 2.5, will be three in November. She started attending a wonderful Montessori school last February, when she had only been two a few months. She desperately wanted to go to school; every time we drove by a school she would yell, "School! MY school? Please? I want to go to school! Kids!" It was really quite pathetic. I've always felt very strongly about Montessori, so I began looking at schools. I looked at every Montessori school in the city and several non-Montessori schools, and I found one that I loved. It was great, wonderful environments, great teachers, fabulous director, wonderful music program, etc. They only had five day a week programs, so she did five half days (2.5 hours a day). She did very well last year and enjoyed it, made friends, etc.

However, when school started back for the year in August, she was one of the older kids in her room this year. (Most of her friends from last year have moved up to the primary class.) Anna is miserable. Getting her to school is a huge, huge battle. Battle to get her out of her crib, onto the potty, each item of clothing is a huge battle. ("Do you want to put on your panties or do you want help? she says, "You do it," so I put on her panties, then she screams, "No, *I* want to do it!" and temper tantrum results. Repeat for shorts, shirt, socks, shoes, brushing hair, opening door, climbing in seat, doing buckle, etc). She screams over and over about not wanting to go to school. When I finally get her buckled in, after she screams for about five minutes (it's a 30 minute drive to school), she starts whimpering and saying, "I want to go home. Please?" It's really sad. She's comfortable in the classroom, separates easily from me, so that's not the issue, I don't think. She was delighted to go to school the first two weeks, but now she doesn't like it and is a hellion in the classroom - taking work away from other children, bothering them, screaming lyrics to "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" at circle (when they're not singing twinkle), and otherwise having to be removed from the group multiple times a day. She comes home and is emotionally a wreck, too. She gets all clingy and whiny, while still being combative and refusing to do what's asked, etc. She's just a mess. I feel awful for her. She says she doesn't like school because all her friends are gone and she doesn't like the new children. She says they are in the big kids class, and she can see them on the big kid playground, but she is stuck on the little (toddler) playground. It sounds really sad when she describes being in the little enclosed toddler playground, watching her friends all playing and having fun together, but not being able to join them. I just don't know what to do. I asked her teacher about a conference, but her teacher says today was a bit better and it's too early in the year for a conference. But even if she "shapes up" at school, I feel a need for a change. It's a huge disruption on our family life with her to act like this. I wonder if she should go fewer days, if I should take her out of school altogether, if she'd do better in the primary class, if she could play with the big kids on the playground, if she needs a play therapist, or if it just isn't a good fit for her and she'd do better with a play school. I watched her after church last night (a play environment with crafts, stories, etc) and she was relaxed, happy, active....it was a whole different child. I just don't know what to do. I love the school. I think the teachers are great and that it's very well run, a great experience. I don't want to experiment with moving her up if she isn't ready (and I do like the toddler class a lot), or take her out if it's the wrong thing to do. But I want her to be happy and thrive, as well as learn. Any thoughts or advice?

[Bartock]

no advice sorry, but what exactly is a montessori school?

[ochoco]

Originally Posted by ilovemy2ds

no advice sorry, but what exactly is a montessori school?

Check the sticky above for links to info about Montessori schools - this mom needs help, so I don't want to hijack this thread.

Terabith, Montessori Primary programs often encourage 2.5 year olds to join - in my training, we were taught that the younger ones did even better than slightly older children, for the most part. Especially since she already has had experience in the toddler room. I understand that her teacher wants to let her settle in before making decisions, but it's a bit odd that she isn't willing to discuss your concerns, especially as you are noticing such a dramatic difference. I guess I don't understand why they are keeping her in a toddler room instead of allowing her to go into Primary. Is there any flow between classrooms allowed? Is there anything that the school is identifying (besides just age) as a reason to keep her in the Toddler room?

I doubt she needs therapy, as a different environment was calming for her - it really sounds like a clear reaction to school, for whatever reason. Of course I don't know enough about her or the school to really help, but I'd definitely ask that teacher for a special meeting - even if it's too early for a "conference", at least just a chat, since you are so worried. The teacher really owes it to you and your daughter.

I hope it works out for you.

[Flor]

Your description of your dc could be my child these last two weeks since he started school. This school is wonderful, too, and I feel like it is a great environment for ds. He isn't acting up at school, but he has been a MONSTER at home and it is really hard on our family right now, too.

One thought, ds wasn't in school before this, but he was watched by my mom while I worked. I went back to work when he was 6 months old. He really didn't have a problem with me working until he was 2.5, they he suddenly realized he missed me, needed me, ect. He could think of me (and therefore miss me) when I was gone. It was easier on him when he was younger and more distractable. This age is harder for them to separate from parents, in my experience. She might not have minded so much last year.

How long has this been happening? Many people told me it took 4-6 weeks for their child to adjust to school. We are at the end of week 2 and today was a good day. However, his teacher is really willing to discuss anything and wants me to call with any concerns, and tells me everything he said all day. It would bother me that she doesn't want to talk to you much. Maybe tell her in stronger words (ie. you might take dc out of school) and see if you get a response.

Yesterday, I was literally questioning my sanity and my child's/. He had the biggest tantrum I've ever seen, and I had to call my husband home from work to help me. We have never seen our child like this before. It seemed to be the turning point, though, today was calm. Good luck with this. It is so hard. At work, I look at my class of 30 students and think, each one of them had a first week of school! And they are still here!

[Terabith]

There's not really any flow between the toddler and the primary classes. I am not sure how much of that has to do with regulations from state licensing boards and how much has to do with the school's preferences and policies.

The toddler class is for 2 year olds. They don't accept children under 2, I think because that would kick them into another bracket in terms of regulations. Last year there were even several young three year olds in the toddler class, either because they weren't potty trained or because they had just turned three and they genearally wait for a semester break to promote a child. The mission of the toddler class is to normalize them and get them used to procedures (putting away work, etc). Which is all great, I totally support it. But the modus operandi is that the primary class is for children 3-6. I know many primary classes have 2.5 year olds, but that's not the way things are done at this school. Not that it couldn't be; they're not terribly dogmatic. I think I will chat with the director informally; she's easier to talk with informally, as she has an office and doesn't have 15 2 year olds! I don't want to rock the boat at school, but I think we need to make a change of some sort. I like the toddler class; I think the teachers are great. They have a new co-teacher who seems fabulous, and I love the way the environment is set up. (There is an observation window to the classroom, so I've gotten to see some of what goes on. I can't stay the whole time though because the 16 month old isn't terribly patient.) But as much as I love the toddler classroom, I think it might not be the best place for Anna right now. Most of the children (way more than half) are young twos; two of them just turned two this week. There are a lot of boys, and Anna is currently on a generally only playing with boys streak. She's VERY social and imaginative, so that's a personality characteristic that may be making things difficult to begin with. (Maybe she really WOULD benefit from a more play oriented preschool, hmmm. Balance what I've always believed was the best form of preschool education vs what might perhaps be better for her.) She tends to play better with older children. (Looking at circle, she's so much bigger than most of the other kids in her class.) She's very good with her younger sister, but she's not a real nurturer/ taking care of other children. She can even be a bit of a bully under the right circumstances. She's not super precocious, but she's reasonably bright, and I think she could certainly handle the practical life and sensorial materials in a primary classroom. Plus, I think she'd benefit from observing more advanced works. So while it might not be *ideal* to move her to the primary class, I don't think it would be *bad.* Hmmm.

[Flor]

Talk to them. Your concerns seem reasonable. At our school there is a 2-3 room and the 4's go to the primary. See if they are flexible. Are you comfortable having your 2.5 yo with 6 year olds? Well, three isn't much bigger, I guess. Good luck with this. Today ds had no school, and he was asking for his teacher!?!?! I think it's getting better around here.

[Terabith]

I have no problem with my 2.5 yr old being with six yr olds. The school does a fantastic job of teaching older children to help younger ones. They're very great with one another - a real spirit of helpfulness. And Anna does a great job playing with a genuine friend who is five. I do have concerns about her missing out on being one of the older kids in the toddler class. I believe it's important to learn to be one of the helpful ones teaching younger kids. She is great with her younger sister. But I dunno if it is worth the stress. Lilliana, any thoughts from you?

[Lillianna]

My experience has been very positive with starting a child at 2.5 in the Children's House. The preliminary activities and early practice life are not as interesting to 3 and up. Also, there is a different quality to the Absorbent Mind from the ages of birth to 3, then 3 to 6. In the first stage, learning is an unconscious process, after 3 there is a shift in awareness and learning becomes more conscious. The child benefits from learning in a self-directed enviroment. When a child starts Children's House at 2.5, she is still in the unconscious absorbent mind phase, and this can be a real benefit in her overall success there. We just started a Toddler room at our school, so I haven't seen it intimately before now, but my initial reaction is to say that it's possible that a a 2.5 year old might be beyond most of the materials. Maybe the Guide in Toddler can bring in a couple materials from Children's House. Ask about which materials she is providing for your dd's age. It does sound to me like she is trying to make her wishes known. I agree with Ochoco and Flor, give a call and set up a meeting. If she is having such a strong reaction, she is trying to make her feelings known. I loved your first post about her asking to go to school and she is really missing the friends that moved up. If you are committed to the her being in the Children's House for at least 3 years (some children who start at 2.5 stay for 4 years), you can stress that with the Directress when you meet. I hope they have some space and she can "move up" or at least have a few visits to see how she does! Also, in regards to her being "less helpful" when dressing, etc. this is partly related to her age as well (as Flor mentioned). There is some experimentation with behavior. I get in trouble when I say "testing limits" but I do think they are trying out different behaviors (that they have witnessed) and looking to see what your reaction will be. Soooo, if they cry and say no and refuse to do it for themselves, and then you do it for them....this can become a pattern. Not so much a "conditional parenting" or harsh requirement, but just the expectation that you put your own shoes on, you zip your coat, with a calm patience and minimal help if needed always guiding the child towards doing for herself. When giving choices, try making both choices involve her doing it herself (ie not "you do it or mommy") but choices such as "would you like to wear the green undies or blue undies? or "shorts or pants" or "hot cereal or cold cereal" involving adjectives for language development. You can always help if she wants, it's just important that her hands are on task as well. Sorry if I am rambling. Does this make sense? Sounds like a great school overall!

[Flor]

Originally Posted by Terabith

I have no problem with my 2.5 yr old being with six yr olds. The school does a fantastic job of teaching older children to help younger ones. They're very great with one another - a real spirit of helpfulness. And Anna does a great job playing with a genuine friend who is five. I do have concerns about her missing out on being one of the older kids in the toddler class. I believe it's important to learn to be one of the helpful ones teaching younger kids. She is great with her younger sister. But I dunno if it is worth the stress. Lilliana, any thoughts from you?

Good point.

[RomanGoddess]

She says they are in the big kids class, and she can see them on the big kid playground, but she is stuck on the little (toddler) playground. It sounds really sad when she describes being in the little enclosed toddler playground, watching her friends all playing and having fun together, but not being able to join them.

Well, seems pretty obvious to me. She clearly does feel fulfilled in the toddler class. Get her in the primary class and problem solved, I say. Does the school have a policy to retain children whose third birthday is late in the year? Can they make an exception?

[Terabith]

Well, the school has said that they did not want to move her to the primary class until January, when they would promote her with two other girls in her class whose birthdays are within a couple weeks of each other. I haven't pushed it since she has been less miserable, and the class is really well run. But Anna is still very unhappy, and while not fighting going to school, is certainly not excited to go. Says things like, "I don't want to go to school; I want to stay home with you," etc. Still getting into some trouble for not listening/ obeying and being silly. She also has gotten into some really un-normalized pretending at home, pretending to be baby animals (baby jaguar, baby flamingo, penguin, etc). She wants me to be a mommy animal. I've figured this is her response to concerns about growing up and her relationship with her little sister, but it's kind of annoying, since it's accompanied by a lot of whining and baby talk. (Not to mention roaring and screeching.) But it does not seem to normalize her or make her feel more content, in the way that playing family relationships with model dinosaurs or dolls or other kinds of pretend play sometimes does. She's started doing this in the classroom too, which has prompted some concern from her teachers, who say that she thinks she is a baby and she cannot go into the primary class in January if she is acting like a baby and not listening, etc. This is concerning enough to me, since I don't know what would help, but more challenging work/ older kids seems to me like a logical place to start seeking solutions. I wrote a long letter to her teachers today, detailing my concerns. Her teacher said that she would talk it over with her co-teacher and the director before giving any feedback. Now, Anna let slip today that she sleeps in a crib and drinks from a bottle (before nap and bed and water in her sleep). She loves her crib and her bottle is her only comfort item; I have viewed it as child led weaning. If she were nursing, I would not take it away but rather let her decide when she was done. I figure the bottle is the same. I certainly have no problems if she decides she wants to give up the bottle; they're a PITA. But, I've thought this through and its not a battle I want to fight; also, I figure she probably needs (at this barely past babyhood stage) to feel as if she is in control of growing up and is loved as a baby and a big girl, can get nurturing like a baby if she wants, etc. I'm uncomfortable with the baby animal play because it does not seem to make her happier, but Im also uncomfortable with emphasizing that she HAS to be a big girl. Well, Anna was bitten by another child today and told teacher that milk in a bottle would make her feel better. When I picked Anna up, I discovered the teacher (who had said she wanted to talk to the director - not there today - before making any recommendations) had told ANNA that she was going to give up bottles this weekend and get a new sippy cup. (What the heck; how is a sippy cup different than a bottle????) Anna was excited about the idea of a new sippy cup, but when I explained to her in the car that Ms. Carmen meant that she'd have to throw away her bottles, Anna burst into tears and said, "I love my bottles!" It seems tacky to me that Ms. Carmen (without talking to the director as she had said she would) ignored my list of concerns and fixated on something that *I* dont see as a problem as the big horrible issue and told ANNA what we were going to do, without discussing it with me. At this point, Im almost ready to pull her out and send her to a play based Mother's Day OUt a couple times a week, since she seems happier with play and just not ready for the five day a week program (insecure, wanting to be with me, etc). But I want to talk to the director, who is never there during the morning program. I also cant seem to discuss anything with the other co-teacher; Ms. Carmen intercedes all communication and is the one there for pick up. Anyone, any thoughts? I just hate to see her so unhappy, and it seems like we are spending a lot of money that is a sacrifice, a lot of time, and a lot of stress to send her to a (very good) school that is not really meeting her needs right now. Ideas?

[flyingspaghettimama]

Aw, that's a pretty sad story. It sounds like your heart wants to pull her, but your mind is trying to find ways to stay with it. I'd follow your instincts - school will always be there, perhaps when she's in a more stable place emotionally.

[SleeplessMommy]

We had our (then) almost 3 year old in a Montessori program, and things did not work out (long story). He ended up back home with me. Much less stress, to have the kid at home and not try to force him into something that was not working out.

The schools put a lot of emphasis on how well kids do if you start them at 2.5 years old, but they do not mention that a large number of kids that are tried in the program at that age, are not ready for it. For the cost of 6 months tuition, you could get a lot of Montessori activities for the home. I really want this cylinder block set: http://www.montessoriland.com/site/1...uct/ID_%201001 But I do not think I will be getting it!

School #1 told us he would be much more mature in the fall. They were right! At 3.5 years now, he is doing really well in a different M program, at a different school. Also, he learns lots of things at home that are not on the M curriculum.

[Terabith]

Well, she's in a toddler class, not a primary class. I actually think she would do better in the primary class. She has told me that she is NOT a big girl, because she's not in the big girl class with her friends from last year. They're big in her mind, not her, because she's in the "baby" class. :

Also, last year she LOVED school. I guess she could have been ready last year but this year is not. I dunno how that would work, but really, last year she ate it up and loved school and now she does not want to go. Same classroom and teacher (although a new co-teacher). Just different kids. I'm feeling disloyal even thinking of pulling her out; I've always been committed to Montessori and the cycle, but I really am feeling in my gut that this isn't right. But then, everything I read about Montessori is so RIGHT. And she is NOT acting in a normalized way.... Even if I pull her out for this year and sent her a few days a week to a playschool, I think I'd do a pseudo "Montessori at home" work period time. Has anyone any experience with this? Would I be one of those awful parents if I take her out for this year? I want to be a good Montessori parent, but I want even more to do what's right for her. I've always thought Montessori was really the best for almost all children, but maybe not every Montessori school is right for every child? Thoughts?

[Thalia the Muse]

I wonder how much of her issues have to do with being an older sister, rather than with her school per se? The wanting to be a baby thing really struck me in particular.

That said, it sounds like the school is not handling it well, and that would concern me. I might wait and see how the parent conference goes and if they do a better job addressing your concerns.