Ignorant, I guess

[forestrymom]

I am sorry that mostly I lurk on this forum...I just sometimes feel so overwhelmed by all the discussions going on that I can never find my way.

Oh well, I found all of you, and there must be a reason...

Although I don't have a son we are trying for another and this is something I have debated (in my head) for a long time. I have never seen an intact penis (I saw one on here on an infant but that's it)...don't even know anyone who is intact (and I have seen a lot of penis'). I guess maybe here where I live it is more common to circ than to not circ??

Anyway...what is retracting? How do you care for an intact penis, or is it mostly the same? I watched a video of a circ and it seemed so cruel! But how do I convince my dh about it? He is circ'd and every male in my family is. I really wouldn't want my lo to go through that!

I am just very curious and want very much to understand the non circ'd penis--to educate myself so I can educate my family and hopefully convince them not to. Please don't hate those around me for wanting to circ--really, they just don't know any better!

[<<>>]

you will have many knowledgeable people on here to answer you questions.

I just wanted to welcome you to the board.....

[Nathan1097]

Hi. There's a photo posted on here of an amputee who is intact.

As far as caring for an intact boy, you just wipe the outside. Don't pull the skin back at all (that is retracting).

[AntoninBeGonin]

Originally Posted by forestrymom

I am sorry that mostly I lurk on this forum...I just sometimes feel so overwhelmed by all the discussions going on that I can never find my way.

Oh well, I found all of you, and there must be a reason...

Hi and welcome!

Originally Posted by forestrymom

Although I don't have a son we are trying for another and this is something I have debated (in my head) for a long time. I have never seen an intact penis (I saw one on here on an infant but that's it)...don't even know anyone who is intact (and I have seen a lot of penis'). I guess maybe here where I live it is more common to circ than to not circ??

Most likely it's the same there as it is across the US. If you're in your 20s-30s then most of the men of your generation are circumcised. But many parents are now leaving their sons intact. Especially natural living or attachment parenting parents. I live in the midwest (IL) and belong to a yahoo! group of about 40 parents and a large number have intact sons. (More than in the general population). If you're into natural living or raising kids AP then I bet if you looked into joining or creating a local group you'd meet many parents who are against circ. That might help your family feel more comfortable with the intact penis.

Originally Posted by forestrymom

Anyway...what is retracting?

Retracting is anytime the foreskin is pushed up the shaft of the penis. This should only be done by the boy himself. Parents and other caregivers never have to retract. For one thing, with little boys the foreskin is fused to the head of the penis so in order for a parent to retract they have to force the skin apart which is very painful and causes problems. Parents used to think that causing the baby pain was necessary so they could clean under the foreskin. However, cleaning under the foreskin is completely unnecessary.

Originally Posted by forestrymom

How do you care for an intact penis, or is it mostly the same?

Care of the intact penis is super easy. In fact, it can't get any easier. During diaper changes the only thing you need to do is wipe it like a finger if it's visably dirty. Other than that, just letting your son sit and splash in the bath is enough to keep it clean. Contrast that to having to care for a circumcision wound while it heals inside a pee and poopie soaked diaper. I've read circumcision care boards and some of those parents mention how they've spent months putting vasoline on the baby's circumcision wound.

So, in a nutshell, leave intact, don't push back and he'll be alright

Originally Posted by forestrymom

I watched a video of a circ and it seemed so cruel! But how do I convince my dh about it? He is circ'd and every male in my family is. I really wouldn't want my lo to go through that!

Hopefully, your Dh can be convinced just by the fact it's not medically necessary. Really, the foreskin is just like any other body part. Yes, there is the potential for problems but as with every other part that potential greatly depends on the care. Sometimes men are really adament about having their son circumcised because to leave them intact emphasizes the fact that the dad is missing part of his genitals. If you think that's possible let us know and we're help you find information about that.

Hope this helps, I have pregnancy brain so I know I'm rambling like crazy.

~Nay

[kldliam]

hi

Hi. welcome to CAC. First let me say how refreshing it is when people like yourself, take the time to investigate circumcision prior to consenting to it. It deserves to be researched throughly, as you would want to research any decision where you alter someone's else's body permanently.

Anyway...what is retracting? How do you care for an intact penis, or is it mostly the same?

'Retracting' is pulling the skin of the penis back, to expose what you see on a circ'd guy...the head or more properly, the "glans". The foreskin is there to protect and keep the "head" or glans of the penis sensitive moist and healthy. It is also most pleasurable for both the man and the woman.

Sometimes it helps people to understand male circumcision from this perspective: Our cliterous has a 'hood' over it too. This is our tiny little version of the foreskin. Imagine if it was cut off of us at birth???!!!!

If my parents cut off the hood of my cliterous to expose it fully (becuase it's so much more attractive that way) how might I feel about that? Kinda lousy I can imagine.

If our cliteral hood was routinely removed at birth, we'd never know the difference right? The overexposure would seem 'normal' to us because that is how it always was.

Overexposure is not normal.

Here are some graphic illustrations and a video of a retractable penis. This link contains adult penis's, if you do not wish to view this material do not click the link.

http://www.noharmm.org/anatomy.htm

Keeping the intact penis clean is as easy as keeping the vagina clean. In the early years, (up to puberty sometimes) the foreskin on the penis is not retractable, this is totally normal. Baby boys just soak in water like their baby sisters. When the "retraction process" begins (we call this separation) the child can gently begin to rinse with warm water under his foreskin. It is all so simple, yet such a mystery to our foreskin ignorant country.

Again, glad you are here and are getting familiar with genital integrity....everyone's birthright.

[onlyboys]

As far as your husband goes, I'd start off hard-nosed.

Simply say, "Oh, and if we have a boy, he'll be intact." Matter of fact and non-negotiable. Hopefully, your husband will see that you mean it and there will be no debating. Somethings in life are simply not negotiable.

Hope this helps!

[Sijae]

Here is the very best video on the intact penis. There are no pics of circ'd penis's or circumcisions, it's all about the intact penis. It will tell you exactly what it is, how it works and what it is for. Even though I have all intact sons I didn't know what it really is until watching this video.

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vi...622b528.774135

By the way it is quite graphic in terms of male nudity. I wouldn't watch it at work

Laura

[forestrymom]

Thank you all for the great information--the more I read the more I realize how inhumane it is, and I feel sorry for my husband and brother, and especially my little nephew who received an incomplete circ when he was born almost a year ago. Like my dh, my brother is circ'd and just assumed, without educating himself, that he would circ his son too. And the worst part is (which is really why I became so intersted in the first place) is that the doctor butchered him! It is really gross--I mean I saw his penis before and I have seen other circ'd infant penis' before and this just looks awful. His new ped (anti-circ) has convinced them to just leave it as is until he is older and can decide for himself. They had to hold my brother back from running to kick the doctor that did the circ's ass!

anyway...I will try to be adamant about the no-circ with my dh. I just really want my lo to feel normal--silly, I know, and certainly not worth the pain, right?

I will be leaning on all of you for support!

[Getz]

Congrats on making a great decision for a future son!! Taking care of a whole penis is easy. Don't do anything to it! I run soapy water over it, and that's it.

Actually, if you have a son, intact will very quickly look normal. I think circ'ed penises look weird, I don't like the little snake eye looking at me.

The boy I sit for is circed and it is so sad looking. I am SO GLAD I found out that circing wasn't neccessary. Your son will thank you!

[SkyDweller]

Talking to Men about Not Circing

Originally Posted by forestrymom

....But how do I convince my dh about it? He is circ'd and every male in my family is....
I am just very curious and want very much to understand the non circ'd penis--to educate myself so I can educate my family and hopefully convince them not to.

Welcome Forestrymom you're at the right place and you will receive support, encouragement, advice and a LOT of information. This forum has helped me immensely and has given me the information and confidence to talk some of my friends out of circing. In fact I was just with one of those couples a week ago--and the husband thanked me again for convincing him not to circ. It's actually pretty easy to talk to a man. Men respond well to 1. Facts, 2. Confidence, and 3. An 'even' and non-emotional tone.

With this guy (and another one in my church too) all I said was (even, conversational tone) "Hey, you're having a boy, right?"
"yes"
"Have you decided whether you're going to circumcise him or not?"
[surprised look] "Um, yeah, he's gonna look like his dad" [chuckle]
Then I replied nonchalantly, confidently and evenly, "Can I talk to you out of it?"
In both cases they were surprised and admitted they hadn't thought of it. All I did was to give them a couple of reasons--and the biggest was that "Hey, the little guy could decide for himself!"

With your husband, decide on a strategy. [Remember that as a woman you hold a huge amt of power in a relationship and we men are often VERY susceptible to that power]. If you smile, don't get upset, remain confident that you'll 'win' in the end, and very loving towards your husband, you stand a huge chance of getting him to agree with you. If I were you my initial steps would be.

1. Bring up the issue in casual conversation when you're alone with him and have his attention and point-blank ask him, "if we had a son, have you thought of not-circing him?" [smile at him, touch him] He'll be surprised, but your reply will be, "Hey, I love your penis!!...[tell him how excited you are about his body], : but [and here I'd bring up 1. the pain, 2. risk of complications, and 3. it doesn't seem right to bring baby from nice comfy world and chop off a bit of genitals. again, don't be too 'intense here--just relaxed, smiling] (We men have a built-in 'tension-sensor' that causes us to tense him and put up walls and resistance when we see it in our woman)

2. Back off. Have an attitude that if you give him space and time he'll make the right decision. AND from time to time, hand him an article on not-circing. No rebuttals, just nonchalance and a loving caring attitude (along with "here's another article I found interesting). He may have lots of, "hey, I didn't feel any pain, he'll look different in the locker room, it's more healthy to be circed'. Don't worry about his replies! Some you won't even reply to--just smile. Others you'll smile and say, "hey, he'll stand out in a crowd!" and giggle. (to the locker-room argument)

3. You'll know if he's coming around or not. If he's not and your pregnant and know it's a boy, bargain with him. If he really wants to name the baby say, "tell you what, I'll make a deal with you. You name him and I'll decide the circ status."

4. If nothing works and when you are pregnant and know it's a boy, your last step is this: Still remain loving, and smiling, and nonchalant, and confident. But when you talk to him now, you 'admit' to him that you have a real problem--that you can't change. Laugh and tell him that there's no way in God's green earth that you'll let him be circumcised. Smile and chuckle, throw your hands in the air, and say, "I can't help myself--I'm like a momma bear(and I LOOK like one too!) --I'm gonna protect our child at all costs."

If he's like most men he'll do anything he can to keep the relationship at an 'even keel'. He will not want to upset you espec. when you're pregnant (what with all those volatile hormones etc.). And of course he'll not want to compromise your willingness to be sexual with him either.

BUT if he becomes confrontational and resistant, don't fight with him. You don't have to convince him. You keep on smiling, caring, but you make sure that ALL of the medical personnel know your wishes in this.

I do wish you well on this. Please don't worry about it becoming a fight. EXPECT that he will see the light, EXPECT that he'll see your side--and he probably will.

[cfiddlinmama]

That's awesome advice Sky Dweller! What a beautiful post! : Thank you!

OP - I wish you the best in converting your dh!

[SkyDweller]

Whew--LONG post!

And re-reading my LONG post, I have to remember as a man not to get too intense about this and to step off my soap-box! LOL

[cristina63303]

I liked that post too

Sometimes, though, it seems like guys are more willing to listen to guys on this (more at ease, at least). I don't know. I guess you have a point about a woman's power in a relatioship, but then I've heard that the answer that often comes back is "Honey, I'm the one with the penis". What would you reply to that? I guess "well, I'm the one with the intact genitals" would be an option, albeit one that would take you straight to conflict mode. Suggestions?

I've never had to deal with that and I can't help but finding the whole circumcision issue impossible to understand (non-American perspective).

I also think it's great you're using YOUR guy approach and getting other guys to know that it's OK not to circumcise their sons. I wish more men got involved like that. It's so wonderful to hear those stories of babies saved from mutilation.

[paquerette]

Originally Posted by cristina63303

I guess you have a point about a woman's power in a relatioship, but then I've heard that the answer that often comes back is "Honey, I'm the one with the penis". What would you reply to that? I guess "well, I'm the one with the intact genitals" would be an option, albeit one that would take you straight to conflict mode. Suggestions?

My thoughts... the father's not the only one with a penis. The child's penis is his own to do with as he likes. The father's having a penis doesn't mean that he gets to make all decisions about all penises in the family with no input from the mother any more than my having breasts means I get to decide to get my daughter implants without any input from her father, because of course he has no breasts (moobs not withstanding ).

[trmpetplaya]

I would tell your dh that it's your son's penis and your son's decision. Your dh probably "knows" that to some degree, but he probably hasn't thought about it, ya know? Your son should decide since it's purely cosmetic surgery.

ALSO - your nephew... your dh probably knows about that, right? You have a wonderful opportunity since you know someone personally who has a "botched" circumcision. It's too bad that had to happen to your nephew (poor little guy ), but you can't change it. You can use what happened to him to help save your son's foreskin if your dh really won't listen. You can also use that as one of your reasons to your family: "remember what happened to nephew? Well, that's NOT happening to my son. End of discussion."

I am very happily married to an intact man and both he and I are incredibly grateful to my MIL (who passed away three years ago : ) for leaving the decision up to dh. The foreskin is a very very integral part of the penis and I (having never been with a circumcised man) can't fathom how a penis would work without the foreskin. I know it must, but can't picture HOW exactly

I'm glad you're here We'll do all we can to help you out!

love and peace.

[SkyDweller]

Hmmmmmmmm.....

Originally Posted by cristina63303

Sometimes, though, it seems like guys are more willing to listen to guys on this (more at ease, at least). I don't know. I guess you have a point about a woman's power in a relatioship, but then I've heard that the answer that often comes back is "Honey, I'm the one with the penis". ....

I also think it's great you're using YOUR guy approach and getting other guys to know that it's OK not to circumcise their sons. ... It's so wonderful to hear those stories of babies saved from mutilation.

Thank-you for your affirmation Cristina63303.... What is so cool is to hear these parents bring up the issue now THEMSELVES and say how grateful they are that their sons are intact--that they would never have it any other way--and they are trying to convince their friends.

Good question (what do you do with the 'I'm the one with the penis argument...) paquerette, loved your analogy about a woman with implants getting to decide for her daughter--and I think I get the 'moobs' comment. male boobs?

trmpetplaya, great line

"remember what happened to nephew? Well, that's NOT happening to my son. End of discussion."

[SkyDweller]

How to Get a Man to Listen

Originally Posted by cristina63303

Sometimes, though, it seems like guys are more willing to listen to guys on this (more at ease, at least). I don't know. I guess you have a point about a woman's power in a relatioship, but then I've heard that the answer that often comes back is "Honey, I'm the one with the penis". ....

Great responses here from others on part of your question, but
Cristina, what you say about men listening to men better than their wives is very true and really got me thinking about why that is: Perhaps 3 reasons? And I think this is fairly accurate, but it'd be great to hear from others on this as well.

1. Because other men often speak a man’s language—non-emotional, factual, to-the-point. Concise. And if a woman is able to duplicate that, he will listen to her

2. There may be a respect issue if it’s a man they admire or like (but that isn’t so much gender-related IMO). It’s more about credibility. And if a woman has done her research and presents facts, she really does have a chance

3. Even more so, men are very focused (corpus callosum(which allows communication between the brain hemispheres in women) is largely severed in a man) and as a result, they are very good at filtering out everything that they think is less important and focus on the most important things.

And while we (esp. the silent types) appreciate a women’s ability to chatter on about her day and carry the conversation, yet we instinctively assign ratings to what she’s saying. (Hope I don’t get my ‘Guy’ credentials yanked for sharing top-secret information. ) But it’s true. If it’s just ‘chatter’ about the day, it’s interesting, but we can allow ourselves to think about other things or not listen very closely and just mumble what seem to be the appropriate responses. If it’s about decisions that we have to make as a family. (where to live, what car to get, the problem with the dishwasher), we assign a higher rating to it because our expertise is needed. Of course, if you mention sexual things in the conversation, we assign pretty high ratings to what you say : either because it is more interesting to us or because of where we hope this conversation might lead. The highest ratings we assign to conversations where we know we have to ‘tread very carefully’ or we’ll be sleeping on the couch for the next month. And we’ve gotten good at spotting those ‘looks’ or voice-inflections that tell us that you’re not feeling very happy about us (or you're in a very bad mood) and that we’d better behave. (Well, most of us get that—unfortunately that’s often why yelling seems to work so well—it tells us that this is VERY important.)

What this means is that if you give us cues that what you have to say is important (without putting us on the defensive) AND you help us focus, we will listen to you. I had a girlfriend who was very good at this who would take me on a walk to talk about ‘heavy’ stuff. (It got me away from all my distractions).
On the walk she would let me know this was very important to her. And she would touch me while we talked and walked (leaning on me or holding hands). Further, on the walk, she would engage me in conversation, seeking my opinions--and I would talk and use up my words for the day.
And she would listen and when it came time for her to share, I was more open to hearing her heart.

[forestrymom]

So...does anyone have any "brochures" or printed material that I could casually bombard my dear hubby with? I love all your advice, and thanks for the websites. Again...my ignorance is going to show, but I guess I had seen an adult intact penis--just never realized that's what it was. Sex def. seemed "easier" for me with him than with dh, on those not so lubricated days. I never asked (I was a stupid teenager who was too shy to approach the subject of sex even though I was having it : ). Hope I can be a littlemore open with my kids than my parents were with me, for that very reason. That is another thread though, isn't it?

And I plan to start now, working on my husband. I loved your suggestions skydweller, for talking with a man. A lot of it really made me grin!

[SkyDweller]

Good luck to you

Originally Posted by forestrymom

So...does anyone have any "brochures" or printed material that I could casually bombard my dear hubby with? I love all your advice, and thanks for the websites.

And I plan to start now, working on my husband. I loved your suggestions skydweller, for talking with a man. A lot of it really made me grin!

You're most welcome--I'm glad you found them helpful (and even humorous). Good for you for beginning this journey with your DH.

Does anyone here know of printed materials on this? I honestly don't think there's a lot on circing/non-circing that is printed. Most of the info I've gotten is from the web. There's a video about circumcision that is *very* informative, mainly a narrated powerpoint presentation(slide-show) which shows the intact penis and it's anatomy and function in a very 'dry', but yet interesting way. Anyone know where that's at? I also appreciate anything from the medical community against it. I got something from Canada, and from Australia, and something that Baybee posted recently in this forum which shows latest research. Just found it:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=518119

Also

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=520015 which lists this site--seems helpful and appealing:
http://www.hisbodyhisrights.net/

Good luck to you as you talk to your DH

[paquerette]

Printed materials

The pamphlets on NoCirc.org are available in pdf so you can print them off and trifold them and you're good to go.

Also there are books available out there. I don't own any so I can't vouch for them, but What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Circumcision is often recommended. If you search your favorite bookseller you'll probably turn up a few of the others. You'll find some pro-circ books too, so have your barf bag ready.

If I recall correctly, if you go to the Books And Media forum here, there is a link where you can purchase books from a bookseller and MDC gets a portion of the profit, if you want to support this site while buying books. It's been a while since I saw that so maybe not anymore.