Timeouts and teacher impatience (long)

[lalaland42]

Hi all. I have a 17 month old who attends Montessori school 3 days a week for 3 hours each time. She has attended since she was 12 months old so that I could work and so far it has worked out pretty well. My problem is that the school wants to move her from the 12-18 month room to the 18 month - 3 y.o. room pretty soon. That is fine in principle but there are a few issues I am having with the 18m-3y room and I am hoping to get some perspective on it.

My first issue is in the toddler class rooms, they have a "thinking chair" that they put the toddler in if he/she needs to think about their behavior before joining the class. The way it was described to me, it is a timeout and I feel that my DD is not developmentally ready for a timeout and I would be surprised if she will be in 1 month. -Not that I am sure I will *ever* give her timeouts. She seems to be the sensitive type where timeouts might be very traumatic for her.

My second issue, and this is the reason I am really dragging my feet, is I looked in on the two toddler classes when I was observing DD and I saw some things I did not like. The one classroom I looked at the closest, I heard the teacher say something like, "you have to sit down and do good work before you go home." I don't ever want my daughter to think that she has to "do good work" before she can come home. She can sit on her rear and do absolutely nothing and she can come home. I also saw this little girl (about 2) crying hysterically as the teacher was "leading" her to the thinking chair. I didn't see what she did but the other mother observing said that she didn't think the girl did anything, she just was sad. The girl sat there crying, stuffing her hand in her mouth. About 10 minutes later she was still in the chair. She had stopped crying but she looked emotionally wiped out. I wanted to pick her up and hug her but everyone else in the class was ignoring her, including the teacher. I also heard but didn't see this teacher tell a boy to sit down but the way she snapped at him, it sounded like "sit down and shut up".

Mind you, I only observed this class for 15 minutes total.

So I was thinking, I'll look at the other class. Well, today I was walking by the other class and I glanced in the room to see what was going on and I saw the teacher of that class with a look of complete frustration and anger on her face. She said something to one of the kids in the class but I did not hear what. I know, I could have walked by at an inopportune time but it seems like there is a large amount of frustration in the short periods I have observed.

I do want to say that I have observed DD with her teacher a lot and I have never seen her lose her temper. She seems to be very good and my DD seems to like her a lot.

Is there something in the Montessori philosophy that explains the "thinking chair" for children so young and the "do good work before you can go home" or does this sound as horrible as I think it does? I know I get frustrated too and I sometimes (not often) say things I don't mean, am I not giving the teacher enough room to be a person?

Currently, I want to pull DD out but my DH thinks I haven't observed enough (he likes lots of data) and if we did pull DD out we would lose $500 (not insignificant but DD is so much more important). What do you think?

[Lillianna]

I'm sorry to say that it sounds like these "teachers" are definitely stressed out and needing professional support if you observed this much impatience the first few times! The "thinking chair" is not supported by M philosophy and is quite contrary to her theories of freedom and discipline and rewards and punishments (do you want book references?). I also feel that telling a 2 year old that they "have" to do anything, much less before they are able to go home is psychologically damaging and not supported by the M method. There should be no requirements, just many opportunities! As far as pulling out, do you have other options for M locally? What about discussing this with the Head of School and see if they are willing to give the Toddler Guides better M training! I agree with your dh, can you observe again? I see your point about "giving enough room for the teacher to be a person" - sometimes I say things I don't mean too! Nobody is perfect. We really do have to work at untraining ourselves as far as traditional ideas of discipline are concerned. However, having a "thinking chair" in the room tells me that they do not have other methods available for children who are being disruptive, more in line with M ideals. In our class, we have a "waiting spot" where a child can go anytime she needs help, but it is not punitive.

[RomanGoddess]

Have you checked the Montessori certification of this school? Is it an AMI school? I am not formally Montessori-trained but judging from my own reading on the subject, what you describe does not sound at all like a Montessori school.

[lalaland42]

Lillianna - do you have book recommendations? That would be great. I am a big researcher so I think a lot of my issue is that I don't feel like I know enough to effectively counter their arguements for the "thinking chair" (or other discipline). I tried to tell one of the coordinating women (I don't know her real title) on Friday that I thought timeouts were inappropriate for my child and she explained the rationale for the thinking chair and then tried to tell me how to implement them in my own home to get DD used to the idea. I believe pretty strongly against the use of timeouts for DD so I guess I will have to discuss this with the director.

I think my approach will be to talk to the school about observing both classes for a longer period of time. I have not yet discussed the incidents I observed with the director because I also think they are psychologically damaging and I still get so upset just to think about them.

The school appears to be affiliated with AMS. I looked on the AMI for North America website and there is one school that is close enough to where we live so maybe I will call on Monday for more information. There are a lot of aspects of the Montessori philosophy I love so I would like to find a good fit for my daughter.

[Lillianna]

Hi lala. Which books do you have? I have references for freedom and discipline and rewards and punishment in many of her books. In Discovery of the Child (pgs 60-65), M describes being confronted by children who disturb others and would not listen to her entreaties (first she tries to interest him in some activity). She explains that they ended up setting a small table and chair away from the others and giving the child "all the objects he desires". So in a way, she is advocating separating the child (in same room but on the periphery) but the other piece to this is that she does give him materials to work with. Also, when discussing "discipline" M talks at length about discipline obtained through freedom (more references) and so, the technique of setting the child away from the group is not institutional (only used on rare occasion) and not the first course of action. She says "never give more to the eye than to the hand"..and.."the first glimmerings of discipline have their origin in work". She does not advocate approaching this technique in a punitive manner, but rather trying to provide the child with a successful experience. It is not "time out" or "thinking chair". I have successfully used (rarely) this technique of sitting the "disruptive" child away from the group and giving him different materials. Most children respond well to gentle guidance. I also try to reexamine what we define as "disruptive" behaviors: many times the child just needs closer guidance and to find something interesting to do! M realized that the child is "normalized" through the experiences she developed and this is a related topic for you to explore: normalization. I will give you references as soon as I know what books you have/will have.

[skye's mama]

Sorry I don't have any words of wisdom to have. But I am in a similar situation with regards to the thinking chair with my three year olds, and am interested in hearing more about what people think is appropriate. About a week ago one of my girls did not want to go to school and the other told her that she could just sit on the bench. So I asked what the bench was, and they told me that if they cry they are supposed to sit on a certain bench in the classroom.

They both seemed ok with it, and I guess I could see that if it is done in a very positive way that it could be helpful. I did ask if there were books they could look at while sitting there and it sounded like they are just supposed to sit there and do nothing until they stop crying. I haven't really had a chance to talk with the teacher about this because I had a new baby the same day they started back for the fall, and I have been really preoccupied with him. Anyway, sounded kind of similar to the thinking chair and just wondering if anyone has any experience with this.

[Montessori Mommy]

We have something like the thinking chair at our school, but it is not a time out at all. If the child is being disruptive to the class, the directress will try to get that child interested in some work on his/her and it's often at a table or the reading nook area (with a nice, child-sized arm chair). They can certainly come back and join the group (if a group activity is going on) if they choose, otherwise, they are content to work quietly on their own. And if they are just having an off day (whiney, crying) it should be expected that the directress can hold the child and comfort him/her.

As for "doing good work" or forcing a child to play/do something, that is waaaaaay against Dr. Montessori's philosophy. It's all about intrinsic motivation and child directed learning. If a directress sees that a child is not interested in anything, she might try to spark his interest by showing him some manipulatives, but if the child just feels like sitting there (and who knows, he could be in deep productive thought), that is perfectly OKAY and the child should never be shamed in any way for not wanting to do a particular activity.

It does sound like this teacher is in over her head. Our toddler teachers barely speak above a whisper no matter how the child is behaving, and somehow, they are able to gently diffuse the situation without becoming agitated. Maybe there is another classroom/directress you can request, or possibly you could bring these concerns up with the administration.

[flyingspaghettimama]

Oh, that is such a sad post, lala! It almost made me cry. A little girl stuffing her hand in her mouth...oh, soooo sad. It gives me chills. And so young!

We have never seen a "thinking chair" either. If a child was having a hard day at past schools, the teacher/directress would usually have the child hold her hand or stay with her. At one school, children could sit in the reading nook to calm down if they wished but were not forced to stay there.

I doubt you will be able to change the coordinator's mind. Adults like time-out for some reason, and will find ways to self-justify it. I don't know why.

If you cannot find another montessori school, I would look for another kind of play-based school that uses gentle discipline. It would be better than this sort of emotional abuse, no matter the positive aspects of the MM (which is being inconsistently applied here, who knows about other aspects?).

[lalaland42]

I have been thinking about this a lot in the last couple of days. I did make an appointment with the head of the school for Monday to discuss DD moving up to the next class. I am writing down all of the incidents I observed so I don't forget anything when I get there. I also stopped by to peek in the classes today and although things looked a little better I am starting to think that there was a change in the school that has put a stressor on the "teachers". I am also going to discuss this with the head of the school.

The thinking chair, as it was explained to me, exists for the kids to observe "correct" behavior. The kids are supposed to sit there for no more then 2 minutes watching the rest of the class. This is supposed to help the kid in the chair to understand the proper behavior and encourage (through peer pressure) the child to behave in the approved manner. Even if I had no issue with this, the way that the teacher used the thinking chair far surpassed the correction they describe. I am not sure that my daughter will ever need a timeout but I certainly believe that she does not need to be sat into a chair while she is wailing. :

For an example of what I do now as far as discipline goes. Today DD and I went to the park with one of her toys. She was feeling territorial because the other kids were trying to take her toy away so when a toddler (14 mos) came up to her, she put her foot up to block her. I said to DD in my normal tone of voice, "no, no. Don't kick the baby." I didn't yell, all I did was tell her not to kick. Well, DD got very upset and started crying. -Like I said previously, she is very sensitive. I comforted her, held her and told her that it is OK to be sad but not to kick the baby. Imagine if someone had dragged her to a chair to think about it. She would have crumbled and really I don't think she would have learned anything constructive. I am planning on discussing this with the head of the school as well but I tend to agree that she will probably insist on timeouts.

I went to observe today and although I didn't see anything terrible, the three classes I looked in on were kind of chaotic. It did not seem like there was much "work" done because the whole time there were kids violating the other kids' work space. Sophie has been going to this school since last April and last year and the summer were not like this at all. I am wondering what happened/changed.

We have also been looking at a coop preschool that is play based. If things are not resolved Monday (and I am not holding out too much hope of that) then maybe we will look into that school a little more. I can keep her home full time but then I will be incredibly stressed with work. It is another option though. It is too bad though because I did go to a Montessori school for a little bit when I was a child and I remember it fondly.

Mostly I have been reading things online. The library did not have a lot of books on Montessori (weird b/c it is a University library) but I can get whatever is recommended through interlibrary loan. There is so much to learn about this parenting stuff, it's a good thing I am a fast reader.

Thanks for all of the perspective, I am still trying to sort through it all.

[RubyWild]

I visited a "Montessori" school in another town that had a child in time-out when I was there. I asked the teacher what was going on and pointed out that that was not a Montessori method. She explained why they did it, and I left early and never returned. Thankfully, I didn't end up having to work in that town. I think that method is just wrong for my child and didn't want her witnessing it, either.