WWYD? Does "In GOD we trust" poster belong in 2nd grade classroom?

[Gendenwitha]

I'm so excited that both my kids got into a really great school on a waiver (our local school is awful). Love the principal, the teachers seem really nice, everything seems wonderful except...

In my son's 2nd grade classroom there was a poster that said, "In GOD we trust" then in small writing down below it said something like, "official motto of the united states, adopted by congress in [whatever-date]"

I suppose in a classroom where they recite "one nation, under God" every morning and with the note at the bottom, this slips in under the wire as educational. But as a Heathen parent I felt very unwelcome in the classroom. I'm also uncomfortable that this person seems to be trying to look for a way to sneak his religious beliefs into the classroom and am concerned about this coming up in other areas when no other adults are around.

There was also mention on their website that the kids sang, "God Bless America", and "God bless the USA" at their Veteran's Day assembly.

Should I say something to the principal? Simply write a note to the teacher that it made me feel unwelcome, like I'm pointing out something that I assume he didn't know could be discourteous? If so, wat's a good way to phrase that? Write a note similar to the one about their food allergies that says it's up to them what they participate in, but if they object to such things they have my full support?

We're also not patriots, and my kids sit down during the pledge of alliegance. So I'm wondering what they'll do if asked to sing God Bless America in music class. I think I'll schedule their 6-month dental check-up during the Veteran's Day assembly.

[lauren]

That poster does seem a bit 'overt.' Perhaps a note to the principal would be a good start.

The patriotic stuff is a little more touchy, I have found. Patriotism, as defined by the dominant culture, does seem to be seen as "normal" to most people. I have chosen to take these issues and discuss them further at home with my children, rather than "take on" the school about changing this. We have had some great discussions, such as 'why should God only bless America?' (because God is part of our family life). Perhaps you could make this an active part of your discourse at home.

[PajamaMama]

I agree with the previous poster that instead of making a big deal about it with the school, that this is a good opportunity for you and your child to talk about it at home. As a member of a less-mainstream faith, you are going to be faced with these issues again and again, and you won't be able to change the whole world! But you can explain to your children why you believe as you do and make them more aware of the way these things slip in under the radar with most people not even noticing them at all.

[Gloval]

Balancing Secularism and traditions of the country is very delicate. For a child to really be able to understand most of the way the country works, sadly they need a bit of understanding of christianity. Balancing this presents problems. How do you teach people about christianity, and the history of it in our country, including the words God We Trust being imprinted on our money, while remaining neutral on the issue of religion?

Now I would definitely be more comfortable having my child sing This Land is Your Land, than God Bless America, but this is all appart of our culture that children need exposure too. The influence of a class room poster should not be able to outweigh the influence you have on your chilldren. I would say talk to your son about issues you have.

--Gloval

[umbrella]

Originally Posted by PajamaMama

I agree with the previous poster that instead of making a big deal about it with the school, that this is a good opportunity for you and your child to talk about it at home. As a member of a less-mainstream faith, you are going to be faced with these issues again and again, and you won't be able to change the whole world! But you can explain to your children why you believe as you do and make them more aware of the way these things slip in under the radar with most people not even noticing them at all.

would you say this to any other minority?

[boongirl]

This issue has been broached again and again in this country. You can take it as far as a recent California man did and have the national atheist group sponsor you to take a lawsuit as far as it would go. That takes a lot of time and effort and you would have to pay for the attorney unless you got a sponsor such as this. A more expeditious approach would be to talk to the principal about how it made you uncomfortable and is there anything that can be done to be more inclusive of all faiths? In my state, it is law that all children have to recite the pledge at school. And, "In god we trust" is written in all our courts. Keep that in mind. Personally, if it were me, I would just have a talk with my child about how "god" is mentioned so much because our country's founding fathers came here to avoid religious persecution, blah, blah, blah.

Originally Posted by umbrella

would you say this to any other minority?

I am not sure what this sentence means. These phrases are bound into the framework of our democratic policy. As I stated above, it is sometimes law that children must say the pledge and these phrases are written on our money and in our courts. I don't think this argument transfers at all to an argument about minorities.

[PajamaMama]

Originally Posted by umbrella

would you say this to any other minority?

I don't know what you're getting at. I'm just being a realist. Not everyone wants to make an example of their child for their own benefit.

[majikfaerie]

in DOG we trust

Originally Posted by Gendenwitha

I think I'll schedule their 6-month dental check-up during the Veteran's Day assembly.

good idea!
but isn't "in GOD we trust" printed on some of your MONEY?? It's kinda pervasive in North American culture.
When I see such stuff, I tend to ignore it and remind myself that GOD stands for Grey Old Dog.
But ITA, talk openly to your kids at home about how you feel and your beliefs.

[USAmma]

What kind of school is this? Public or private? If it's public (even charter) the poster breaks the law, I believe. I would bring it up with the teacher privately and see what can be done. I don't mind patriotism to a point, but I too would be bothered by that kind of poster.

[rabrog]

Actually, I'm willing to bet the poster doesn't break the law because it is there with a historic undertone to it.

Talk about it at home. Religious beliefs are a personal thing, yet everyone has to learn how the country was founded, why that phrase is on our money, etc.

And as Brazelton said when he was here last month: it is time to stop trying change the environment so that our kids are comfortable and no one is offeneded; instead we need to be teaching our kids to deal with the world around them and give them tools to be strong adults and think for themselves. By talking about this at home, you're doing just that - giving your child the knowledge that this is something he will come across and giving him to tools to decide how he feels about it.

Jenn

[boongirl]

Originally Posted by USAmma

What kind of school is this? Public or private? If it's public (even charter) the poster breaks the law, I believe. I would bring it up with the teacher privately and see what can be done. I don't mind patriotism to a point, but I too would be bothered by that kind of poster.

That poster would bother me but I do not see how it breaks the law. It is not a religious poster if it is referring to something from the US government. And it is on our money. It is insensitive. I would address the teacher/principal on that angle. There are other ways of being patriotic that don't relate to religion.

[Gendenwitha]

Yes it is a public school, nestled between two military bases and an ultra-liberal state capitol. Pretty certain it's legal. What concerns me is I listen to Christian programing on TV and radio, especially shows like ACLJ, (one part earnestly trying to understand their perspective, one part "know your enemy") and will frequently hear callers who work in certain jobs, especially teachers, bragging about ways to get around rules regarding separation of church and state to proselytize.

First I'm concerned that my very outspoken anti-Bush witchlet is going to face discrimination in this class. On the other hand, if this is just a nice Christian man, naieve to faiths outside of Judaism/Islam/Christianity, who thinks the poster is just a way of showing people he's a good person because he's religious, I would rather educate him than get him in trouble. What's a non-confrontational way of asking about it? (Please, help me out here with actual phrasing. I think I'm direct and straightforward, others think I'm agressive and confrontational. )

[JBaxter]

If it bothers you say something to the teacher first since it is her/his classroom. BUT I'd wait a week or being its September 11th which is very touchy.

[mamaofthreecats]

i'm sure if you made a fuss about it, they'd take it down. however, perhaps educating children that other people have beliefs that you don't rather than covering it up would be more effective?

[mammastar2]

Originally Posted by mamaofthreecats

i'm sure if you made a fuss about it, they'd take it down. however, perhaps educating children that other people have beliefs that you don't rather than covering it up would be more effective?

The difficulty with this reasoning, I think, is that the problem is not that (a) the original poster's children are going to be exposed to other beliefs that she doesn't share, but that (b) ALL of the children in the school are being taught that their country properly shares a single set of beliefs in a monotheistic god.

[mamaofthreecats]

then the country should change the word "god" to "may the force be with you." "one nation under the force"---wait, that sounds scarey!!! "one nation under the people" sounds better. we the people really need to change that under god quote!!!

[Gendenwitha]

Originally Posted by mamaofthreecats

i'm sure if you made a fuss about it, they'd take it down. however, perhaps educating children that other people have beliefs that you don't rather than covering it up would be more effective?

If I were a teacher who had a sign that said "Goddess Bless" or better yet, an "educational" poster that was a picture of a wiccan coven with the date of the Dettmer v Landon decision (recognizing Wicca as a religion in a federal court) do you REALLY think that would be the attitude of the Christian parents?

Do you really think my child can grow up in this country and NOT be educated by now that other people have different beliefs than us? (Unlike myself who wasn't really aware of any other religions when I chose to be baptized at 10.) What I can't explain is why in a country with freedom of, and freedom from religious practice, we have that as our national motto. Maybe I should tell him to ask his teacher.

But that's sort of besides the point. I'm not concerned about my child knowing about other religions. (Although I believe that's for ME to teach him at HOME.) My question is, if you are doing something that makes someone else uncomfortable, should I, and how do I, tell you?

For example, if showing the bottom of your foot/shoe to a person was an offensive gesture in your country of origin, what would be the best way to inform someone of that cultural custom, without necessarily saying to them that you're offended by it? To explain it makes you uncomfortable because you assume they don't mean to be offensive, but at the same time can't help but wonder if they are familiar with the matter and are trying to be disrespectful. I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt here and assume he isn't trying to alienate any parents.

[dynamohumm6]

Personally, I wouldn't ask the teacher to take the poster down - I'd bring him a few other posters of other religions - including a "No Gods, No Masters/One Nation, Indivisible" poster of some type from American Atheists, and ask that she hang those as well. Once he refuses (and I'm sure she would, because I would hazard a guess that he probably wouldn't hang a poster of Vishnu on his wall) it becomes endorsement of one religion over another and is unconstitutional.
And yes, I would schedule a "dentist appointment" during the assembly, depending on how much you want to rock the boat.

[dynamohumm6]

These phrases are bound into the framework of our democratic policy. As I stated above, it is sometimes law that children must say the pledge and these phrases are written on our money and in our courts. I don't think this argument transfers at all to an argument about minorities.

These phrases were NOT part of the framework of our democracy. They were all added in the 1950s during the cold war, a jab at those "godless commies". "In god we trust", "under god", or any one of those other "god" mottos had absolutely nothing to do with this government in it's founding. Nor is it law that a child (or anyone) must say the pledge.

[Gendenwitha]

Originally Posted by JBaxter

If it bothers you say something to the teacher first since it is her/his classroom. BUT I'd wait a week or being its September 11th which is very touchy.

Crap, I hadn't even considered that angle. Last Friday his teacher requested that he stand up for the pledge of alliegiance. We talked about it and I told him I started sitting down during the pledge when the war started (in 91, but I didn't get into that) because I lost respect for the people pledging their alliegence to a country going to an unprovoked war--but he could make his own decision as to whether he stood up. And made sure he knew it wasn't required. So now that whole decision, as well as my other son's first day at school, will be on 9/11.