Why, why WHY??!!!!

[Shirelle]

Let me preface this with the fact that I have not posted on this board before. It is an area that I struggle with, and I know many parents who are otherwise loving parents, who also believe that they are not harming their children by spanking them. I've also been a spanker, though I'm not proud of that, and am working to find another consistent way to discipline. I've recently had a real change of heart in the way children need to be disciplined.

Anyway, I have a cousin who is truly a caring, patient, and loving mother. She has far more patience with her children than I do, and she is just completely devoted to motherhood. That said, she is a fundamentalist Christian who has had the ideas that are presented in books like Babywise foisted on her by friends and family. She schedule feeds, does CIO, and the thing that really shocked me was that she told me that her 6 month old was "repeatedly screaming at her from his bouncy seat", and she said that she spanked him on the arm My heart just sank. She said that he cried, inconsolably for 45 minutes, and that she felt so bad, that she sat there and cried with him. She really believes that you NEED to practice these methods to be a "Godly parent". When she told a friend that she thought that she was going to stop feeding the baby on a schedule (because he was MISERABLE!), her friend just freaked out, "You CAN'T take him off the schedule. You HAVE to stick to the schedule!!" During that conversation she said to me, "You know, I'm getting kind of sick of people telling me that putting a baby on a schedule is the Godly thing. I don't think that scheduling a baby makes you a Godly parent." I was so EXCITED to hear that! But, the Bible still says "spare the rod, blah, blah, blah" and if you believe that every single word in the Bible should be taken literally, then you're going to believe that you'll definitely need to purchase a rod before having a kid :

This is one of my very best friends. I love her to death, and I'm so sincere when I say that if you didn't know that she spanks her children, you would honestly think she was a model mother. I think she hates spanking them....when she spanks her daughter, she swiftly smacks her on her bottom, and then she picks her up and holds her, and tells her that she loves her (I know, I can't imagine how confusing that must be). She doesn't act angry when she does it...it just seems to be the way she thinks you HAVE to do it.

Someone please tell me what I can say to make her rethink this. I'm so distraught at the idea that she spanked a six month old baby, just for crying.

[Ruthla]

It's so hard when you care about somebody and her baby and you have to watch them hurting (it sounds like both mama and baby are hurting from the spankings in this case.)

I know there are some great links for Christian anti-spanking websites that have been posted before, somebody will probably post them again.

I do know that the "rod" refered to in the Bible is for guiding sheep, not hitting them. You don't see Jewish families advocating spanking as "the G-dly way to raise children" and we read the text in the original Hebrew! (That's not to say that no Jewish families hit their kids, just that it's not advocated as a requirement for good parenting. Most families around here use corporal punishement on rare occasions, only after gentler discipine techniques have "failed".)

[Mama Poot]

Your friend is salvageable. She KNOWS that hitting her child is wrong and admitted it. I won't even go into what I think about the fact that her child is only 6 months old and she hit him.... But at least she knows its wrong. I would bombard her with all the information you can find on why hitting is ALWAYS wrong. I would also highly question the value of belonging to any church or other such group that advocates physical punishment and hides behind the guise of doing what is "Godly". What she is doing is far from "Godly", IMO....

[l_olive]

Try the links at gentlechristianmothers.com

here's one on scheduling in particular

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...cuefeeding.php

Good luck,

--Olive

[rmzbm]

Originally Posted by Ruthla

I do know that the "rod" refered to in the Bible is for guiding sheep, not hitting them.

Exactly. Discipline is meant to be loving guidance & lovingly showing a child the "way to go." I've never seen a sheppard beating a runaway sheep!

[Bookworm?]

I haven't posted on this forum before either, still trying to find my way. There is a book by Kevin Leman called "Becoming the Parent God Wants You to Be". It is sort of a group book, but can be read by individuals. Maube you could offer to do it with her as sort of a book club.Some here may or may not agree with everything in the book, but he definetly doesn't advocate spanking.

[ejmom777]

Okay-- Ruthla beat me to it.
Yes, Most people have perverted that verse. The ROD was only used to guide the sheep NEVER to HIT them. So the verse was symbolizing...
To guide, to teach in self-control. Children can feel unloved if they don't have any guidance & that alone can ruin them. Common sense will tell you.. your child will have no direction & be spoiled/ lost if you don't take the time with your child & teach/guide (in love)...
NOT out of fear because that only teaches a baby that it isn't safe in this world or with his mother & teaches a toddler the same but also to do things only out of fear. Not through free will. God even says he takes no pleasure in forced allegience. Whether it be believing in him or parenting a child. (I read this in the bible but couldn't direct you there off the top of my head)
Please tell her to stop listening to these confused people.
Or tell her to just get intuned with her natural mother's instincts. The more in tuned you are with your Creator the more intuned you will be with your own instincts. I made the same decision earlier this year to be more intuned with my instincts rather than reading these stupid mags that say put your baby on schedule .. etc. And me & my 9 mo. ds are so happy & I know i'm doing what God intended. These other cruel methods are just people's experiments. Because they are so far tuned out.

Obviously it bothers her to do what she is doing to her baby or else she wouldn't be crying right along side him. I ignorantly let my baby cry sometimes in his bouncy seat when he was a few months old. -- I cry thinking about it. Because people would tell me I would spoil him if I gave into his needs. Can you believe that. That's what mothers are designed to do for their babes.
We feed ourselves when we are hungry! Why wouldn't we do the same for a baby. A baby's digestive system is really small & so it digests really fast which means they need to be fed alot in the beginning. Sometimes your baby just wants to be comforted through nursing & thats all part of the process of growing a well balanced human being.(the First Year its really crucial to be so comforting & just be there for your baby, to bond, build trust, build stable emotions, & love. They open up & learn so much about the world around them when they have that security/trust in their mother. “’But won’t prolonged breastfeeding spoil a toddler? He needs to become independent.’ Actually the reverse is true-- Extended nursing, rather than encouraging a child to stay dependent, creates conditions that encourage independence. Offering a familiar connection (breastfeeding) during tumultuous toddlerhood gives the child an anchor from which he can explore the unfamiliar. " Elizabeth N. Baldwin
So this shows that you have to go through the process of being dependent in order to succesfully become independent. So many people think you have to force independence on babies or else they won't naturally learn to be.
You have to trust nature to take its corse.
We still BF on demand, co-sleep, & I meet all my ds's needs & never let him CIO. He is so happy & healthy. I always get compliments from strangers & family on how he is the happiest baby they've ever seen. Of course babes will cry from time to time because thats how they communicate there feelings until they develope a vocab. But don't ignore those feelings. It will only teach babies to shut down their natural communication mechanisms.

I really hope she will find peace & confidence in learning to trust her instints. It's hard to filter through the junk now days because every where you go family, friends, magazines, doctors, & strangers are telling you what you should or shouldn't be doing & creating fear in your mind that you are doing your child a great injustice. Don't listen to them. Even the people you love the most will give you some of the worst advise.
Ask her to read some of these posts & the forum here "Life with a Babe".
Good Luck.
Sorry so long.

[Attached Mama]

spare the rod spoil the child is NOT in the bible actually.

with the verses on the rod, one generally accepted rule amongst christians is that in interpreting the bible you have to take literally in a verse what the rest of the bible takes literally and you can take symbolically what the rest of the bible mentions as clearly symbolical. also you must take one verse or passage in the context of what the rest of the bible says on a topic. still a bit of wiggle room for varying interpretations, but this overall prevents being able to make the bible say whatever you want it to.

so, saying that, the rod is spoken of symbolically in the bible - example, the rod of jesse, the rod of so and so etc - speaking of the authority of that tribe or person. it is also used as a literal shepherd's staff.

if you interpret the verses literally - lets take the one that says "beat with the rod" you have to interpret it all literally. beat in the original hebrew language means to beat within an inch of one's life - it is in other places translated slaughter, kill etc. The rod is not something "thin, flexible and reedlike" as many christians are taught. ONe bible dictionary going back to the original language says that word rod means something strong enough for a man to lean on. So this is not a "spanking" like chrisitans try to say - if taken literally it is completely beating a child with a rod big enough and strong enough for a man to lean on.

if taken symbolically it means to continue to impress upon a child the right ways - use your authority, your "rod" to continually direct them. in keeping with the verses in Deuteronomy that say to speak of the ways of God to your children when you rise up, lie down, go out, come in etc.

and what about the new testament verses that say to provoke not your children to wrath but bring them up in the NURTURE and admonition of the Lord or the one where jesus says woe to those who offend one of htese little ones. it would be better for htem (the parent) if they were drowned. again -in context, jesus doesn't support drowning - just saying how awufl it is to offend a little one.

trying to type quick as DD 14 mos is here and getting antsy. PM me if you want more detailed bible study to forward to her.

hope this helps!!

Unfort i just found out one of the guys who was in our wedding party whom we havent' seen muchof since moving - he and wife have been hitting their baby since 2 wks old - for crying. : Sickos!! Plus giving him benadryl to sleep since 2 wks old and cereal/solids since 2 wks. Those were awful enough but now to hear about the hitting... Anyway, their ds is 2 wks older than my DD - 14 and 1/2 mos. he can't say dada or crawl and just figured out how to feed himself. he is scared to try things. he looks at his parents w fear b4 trying anything at all - afraid he's going to be hit. Oh, and they also used cio for lengthy times.

maybe encourage your friend that God doesn't parent us that way - bible says he hears our cries, is near to the brokenhearted. blessed are those who mourn because they will be comforted. And to an omnipotent God who can fix anything, our cries must seem pretty pointless at times, but He still is always there for us.

i could go on and on PM me if you want more.

[ejmom777]

WOW! Attached Mama Very True.
I wish I had God's word memorized that well to be able to just speak it in situations like these. I have knowledge of His word but not very good with putting into words what I know in my heart.
-- I've been very emotional these past few days (that time) & have been crying at the thought of these confused people who hit their babies for these insane reasons & they justify it!! Let their babies cry, cry, cry..Not comforting them is one insane thing but hitting/punishing them for it should result in the parents/hateful loonies going to jail & being treated the same way. (Not going to type what I really think should happen to them.)
Do these people stop to think why their babies might actually be crying or do they like doing this to them.
It almost makes you feel guilty for knowing this stuff is going on in the world & not being able to take these babies in & love love love them. Of course impossible but what else can we do.
Don't we have loving homes for these babies to go to. I know we have to.
I think if we do than we probably need more... So that might be my goal in life from this day on. To open a loving home for babies & kids who are treated this way. Legally you could take them from those monsters. I hope.

Just needed to vent.. so sorry. Im done.

[majikfaerie]

:

[beanma]

dr sears has a christian parenting book -- http://www.askdrsears.com/store/detail.asp?pid=16

hth

[daniedb]

I heartily second Kevin Leman's parenting books. They are mostly geared toward older children, though, and he does advocate spanking as a last resort kind of punishment for MUCH older children than babies. We have every intention to NOT spank Henry, so I just chucked that advice of his out the window...but he has some wonderful things to say about gentle Christian parenting. I also love the Gentle Christian Moms website someone else posted above, and if she likes to do research online, I would direct her to www.ezzo.info to help her figure out why her instincts about Babywise are correct and she can see many other CHristian leaders who speak out against the Babywise methods.

[honeybee]

It sounds like your friend is struggling to follow her heart when it appears to be in conflict with her faith. The best thing you can do is help provide resources/reasoning to point out that the two are not really in conflict.

You might want to say to your friend: Imagine Jesus came to your house one day to "babysit." How would you imagine Him dealing with certain behaviors? You don't have to go very far to find the answer. How did He teach his disciples? The lay people he came into contact with? How did he treat the sinners? Did he EVER use corporal punishment? Shame? Guilt? Or did he provide calm and loving guidance coupled with unconditional love? In fact, when the adults tried to keep the children out of his way, He said "Bring them unto me."

Why do so many Christains ignore the Perfect example of parenting ever provided to us?

[peacelovingmama]

You might try a heart-to-heart wherein you tell her how much you admire her devotion to mothering and that you have noticed that she seems conflicted about certain things, like hitting (call it "spanking," "the rod," whatever will help her open up and feel comfortable discussing). Maybe by giving her a safe place to discuss her feelings, you can engage her in a conversation and share some other Christian options that don't involve hitting or strict scheduling. She sounds like she wants the best for her kids so you may be surprised at how receptive she is to a discussion (without judgment of course). Good luck -- I'd be disturbed and troubled too.

[Shirelle]

Thank you all for not dismissing her as a terrible mother because she spanks. My cousin is one of my closest friends, and I really do think highly of her, so I appreciate the respectful attitude that everyone has taken. I'm taking notes for our next conversation

[SunflowerMama]

Shirelle,
I can't add anything that hasn't already been said. Your poor cousin just doesn't know that she doesn't have to parent that way that she has been told. Hugs for all of you. I hope that she reads the websites that have been mentioned soon.

[ejmom777]

Does she have the internet?
This is a great link about Natural Parenting. I loved it. I don't see how anyone would continue those harsh methods & wouldn't want to know all about GD after reading this article. She's so intelligent & breaks it down in a common sense kinda way. I'm sure there are better links on here but this is the only one i've read.
http://www.mothering.com/guest_edito...place/130.html

[melixxa]

Originally Posted by honeybee

You might want to say to your friend: Imagine Jesus came to your house one day to "babysit." How would you imagine Him dealing with certain behaviors? You don't have to go very far to find the answer. How did He teach his disciples? The lay people he came into contact with? How did he treat the sinners? Did he EVER use corporal punishment? Shame? Guilt? Or did he provide calm and loving guidance coupled with unconditional love? In fact, when the adults tried to keep the children out of his way, He said "Bring them unto me."

Why do so many Christains ignore the Perfect example of parenting ever provided to us?

Honeybee, this is a great perspective. Thank you! I am not a Christian myself but I do revere Jesus for his teachings. And I also struggle with being less controlling (I often have expectations that are inappopriately high - like expecting a 6-month-old baby not to cry) in my interactions with my preschooler.

Of course, it is ludicrous to think of Jesus trying to strong-arm us into behaving. I can't think of a better argument for simply trying to model the best behavior possible, remaining gentle and respectful, not violating chidren's inborn dignity. Love, not control.

[melixxa]

Originally Posted by honeybee

You might want to say to your friend: Imagine Jesus came to your house one day to "babysit." How would you imagine Him dealing with certain behaviors? You don't have to go very far to find the answer. How did He teach his disciples? The lay people he came into contact with? How did he treat the sinners? Did he EVER use corporal punishment? Shame? Guilt? Or did he provide calm and loving guidance coupled with unconditional love? In fact, when the adults tried to keep the children out of his way, He said "Bring them unto me."

Why do so many Christains ignore the Perfect example of parenting ever provided to us?

Honeybee, this is a great perspective. Thank you! I am not a Christian myself but I do revere Jesus for his teachings. And I also struggle with being less controlling (I often have expectations that are inappopriately high - like expecting a 6-month-old baby not to cry) in my interactions with my preschooler.

Of course, it is ludicrous to think of Jesus trying to strong-arm us into behaving. I can't think of a better argument for simply trying to model the best behavior possible, remaining gentle and respectful, not violating chidren's inborn dignity. Love, not control.

[Shirelle]

Does she have the internet?

Actually, she does not. But, I will try to print off some relevant information for her. They don't have TV or computers, so her PsOV are almost always formed by what her family and friends think.