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forced bra wearing?-updates pg. 5 and 7 - Page 4

post #61 of 168
I am truly speechless at this attitude at ALL, but here? Wow. Just wow. I don't want my daughters to EVER feel that they need to dress in any sort of way because of what may or may not excite some guys. Good god. What century is this? Maybe we shouldn't let them wear shorts or skirts above the ankle either. Oh and some boys are turned on by ankles or wrists so socks and long sleeves. Come ON people. This is about personal rights.

Do you want a cop to pull you over and say you're not appropriately dressed because you don't have a bra on?

If I had DARED to write a letter like that while teaching in public schools I would have been on every news station and would not have had a job by the end of the week.

-Angela
post #62 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamaofthree

And as someone who knows some 11 year old boys, not many (if any at all) are interested in boobs or girls.

H
interesting, as i taught about 45 11-12 year old boys last year and most were into girls and boobs, and yes, some of them were having sex.
post #63 of 168
I totally agree, I just don't think that wearing a bra or t-shirt equals being ashamed at all. It is all in the presentation

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamaofthree
RIGHT ON!

Making young girls ashamed of their bodies, I think only encourages the gropping and bra snapping. They look like targets. Being all bent over and slumped, hiding within themselves. Putting on fabic body armor to prevent boys from looking and maybe even thinking about them later, is just plain silly. And as someone who knows some 11 year old boys, not many (if any at all) are interested in boobs or girls.
I had a dear friend who was "huge" in 5th grade, but she was proud and stood tall, and had few if any comments made to her, even at 10-11 years old.
If we teach our dd's to be proud of their bodies (no matter how much or how little breast they have), teach them that they are not objects to be groped (but not to teach them to hide themselves), and on top of all of that teach boys to be respectful of female bodies (and their own bodies for that matter) then maybe this wouldn't even be a topic.

H
post #64 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommyto3girls
I totally agree, I just don't think that wearing a bra or t-shirt equals being ashamed at all. It is all in the presentation
Oh I agree. Wearing a bra doesn't amount to being ashamed of one's body. Wearing a bra because one fears that some boy might see the outline of a nipple certainly smacks of shame.
post #65 of 168
Is this going to be some sort of pissing contest on who knows how many messed up 11 year old boys? I am sorry you know 45 11 year old boys who are not only into girls, and boobs but also having sex. That just shows me a really messed up environment.
And forcing gilrs to dress to prevent these messed up boys from groping them isn't the answer. Getting those kids help is. Teaching them right touch from wrong touch. And getting our girls to know what is right touch and wrong touch is also a #1 factor. Not slapping a bra on every developing girl to shame her, and "protect" her. Because if you have 11 year old kids having sex, no bra in the world will help that. EDUCATION WILL. If it isn't happening at home then it should be happening in the school... someone has to help those kids, or you just a a circle of violence against women. That isn't only condoned in the home, but in the school... when nothing is done.

H
post #66 of 168
MsHelena: Exactly. It isn't the bra, it is the REASON behind the bra. Not because the girl wants to wear one, is more comfortable with one, but to "protect" her from rouge male eyes, to shame her into wearing one, to put the blame on the girl because uneducated men/boys oogle and grope... like she some how "asked for it" because she chose not to wear a bra. How is that even OK with anyone?

H
post #67 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamaofthree
Is this going to be some sort of pissing contest on who knows how many messed up 11 year old boys? I am sorry you know 45 11 year old boys who are not only into girls, and boobs but also having sex. That just shows me a really messed up environment.
And forcing gilrs to dress to prevent these messed up boys from groping them isn't the answer. Getting those kids help is. Teaching them right touch from wrong touch. And getting our girls to know what is right touch and wrong touch is also a #1 factor. Not slapping a bra on every developing girl to shame her, and "protect" her. Because if you have 11 year old kids having sex, no bra in the world will help that. EDUCATION WILL. If it isn't happening at home then it should be happening in the school... someone has to help those kids, or you just a a circle of violence against women. That isn't only condoned in the home, but in the school... when nothing is done.

H
And no, of course it isn't a pissing contest, you said you didn't know any 11 year old boys that were into boobs, I am just pointing out different environments to you. NOt everyone lives in a place where 11 year old boys are still just boys unfortunately,

Of course it needs to be taught in school and we try, but education at school does no good when there is not reinforcement in the home and in the neighborhood. I am not talking about your girls here I am talking about other kids and the lives they lead
post #68 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by BelgianSheepDog
It's all about choosing the right tool:

1. Bras are the right tool for shaping breasts, lifting them, and making them seem symmetrical.

2. Kicks to the groin and jabs to the eyeballs are the appropriate tools for dealing with boys or men who sexually assault girls or women.

Wearing a bra won't help ward off sexual assault any more than kicking a dude in the groin will give you perky, symmetrical boobs.
: You rock, Mama!
post #69 of 168
Oh, and those of you who have seen me on the lactavism boards know that I have nothing against boobs and boobs in public. But exposing boobs, yes even the defined outline on the areola, in school just isn't the place for it.
post #70 of 168
I'm a large girl with large breasts, so I always wear a bra when I leave the house. I also used to work for a large hotel chain that has stated in the employee handbook that proper undergarments must be worn at all times. I actually saw women sent home for lack of proper foundation.

Is it possible that the teacher wrote this note on the basis that she needed a bra for gym class? My sister, who always jokes that she is so flat that she is concave, never goes running/jogging without a bra. To her it is just more comfortable that way. (Just an idea....)
post #71 of 168
Burn that sucker! Yeeeeee-haw!
post #72 of 168
I must admit, I'm never admiring of the perverse just to be perverse, cut my own nose off to spite my face school of parenting.

How hard is it, rather than be offended, to call the teacher and inquire as to the basis for the note? If its ridiculous, you can dismiss it -- however, if your daughter is becoming the subject of unwanted attention or the fact that she appears less modest/older than most 11 yos because of the lack of a bra is impacting her in a negative way, why not listen to the teacher's (who sees her for some 8 hours a day during the week and sees how she interacts with her peers) concerns, and then lay out what is going on to your daughter so she can make an informed choice. I wouldn't sit on my child and forcibily apply deoderant if they don't want to wear it, but for damn sure I'd make clear to them the consequences if they don't (they stink and no one wants to be around them).
post #73 of 168
Nankey-

What are you going to do?
post #74 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by bczmama
I must admit, I'm never admiring of the perverse just to be perverse, cut my own nose off to spite my face school of parenting.

How hard is it, rather than be offended, to call the teacher and inquire as to the basis for the note? If its ridiculous, you can dismiss it -- however, if your daughter is becoming the subject of unwanted attention or the fact that she appears less modest/older than most 11 yos because of the lack of a bra is impacting her in a negative way, why not listen to the teacher's (who sees her for some 8 hours a day during the week and sees how she interacts with her peers) concerns, and then lay out what is going on to your daughter so she can make an informed choice. I wouldn't sit on my child and forcibily apply deoderant if they don't want to wear it, but for damn sure I'd make clear to them the consequences if they don't (they stink and no one wants to be around them).
Excuse me?
Teaching our girls to be proud of their bodies and to dress how they choose is "perverse just to be perverse" ?????

My mom still talks about how my G'ma used to pretend to hug her, just to rub her back and check for bra straps (late 60s). She hated it. And it only encouraged her to change later.

AS far as what boys notice, if they're at a point to notice breasts, you can be damn sure they notice bras. I remember LOTS of talk from middle school boys about whose bra was showing, bra strap snapping, etc. And if they couldn't tell? THen they made comments about the tightness or bagginess of jeans, or stared at all the girls' crotches to check for the elusive "camel-toe."

That's on them, NOT on the girls.
post #75 of 168
Maybe I'm spoiled because I went to an all-girls school, but I was a very late bra-wearer, not from a lack of need, but because I was just uncomfortable.

I experimented once of twice when I was eleven and starting to really need one, felt like the straps showed too much, didn't like the way it felt like a harness all over my body, and felt too 'grown-up.'

I always got a really uncomfortable feeling in the back of my throat when I wore a bra or thought about it, like a little bit nauseated. Maybe I was just a seriously messed up kid, but it was a very anxious experience for me.

I eventually adjusted sloooowwwwly to sports bras, choosing at first ones more like short tops and eventually more bra-like ones over a period of several years.

Now I wear a night-time nursing bra all the time bc I still can't stand the super-supportive strappy harness like feel of a regualr nursing bra.

I just don't understand why something so intensely personal is up for scrutiny. Like I say, maybe I was just a really messed up kid, but for this to be a matter of public debate would've beyond freaked me out. Totally innappropriate for it to be about anyone but the young lady herself.

As for getting grabbed in the hallway, that just sickens me. Sounds like a great argument for single-sex education or homeschooling.
post #76 of 168
Did I step into a time warp? Is it the 1950's? What is with all the posts about women needing to change and hide to "protect" themslves? I would be LIVID if that was my daughters teacher. I don't care what size your breasts are, men and boys are responsible for their own actions, bra or no bra. WOW!

I don't force my daighter to wear a bra, and I don't even suggest it. Nor would I ever submit her to some "inspection" for fear a nipple might show. I don't even know what to say to this. The concept is so draconian to me.
post #77 of 168
Quote:
I just don't understand why something so intensely personal is up for scrutiny. Like I say, maybe I was just a really messed up kid, but for this to be a matter of public debate would've beyond freaked me out. Totally innappropriate for it to be about anyone but the young lady herself.
ITA
post #78 of 168
Is there something wrong with the boys looking or noticing her changing body?

If she doesn't have a problem with it, then she should be free to wear whatever she wants within the dress code.

Besides, i know when i was in school, it was far more disruptive to wear a bra than not, because when the boys found out you wore a bra they'd have to go out of their way to snap it constantly!
post #79 of 168
How the hell do we teach girls at the age of eleven that their new breasts must be hidden, at all costs, from the roving eyes of uncontrollably masturbating sexstarved boys, and then expect them to proudly and confidently expose those breasts to feed their children five or ten or fifteen years later?

Isn't this whole irrational terror of the exposed nipple half the problem with getting women to breastfeed more than a minute in this country?

If the kiddo doesn't wanna wear a bra, it's nobody's business to make her. I don't care what shape or size they are, or whether her nipples are sticking out, or who may or may not be getting a hardon.

Holy crap.
post #80 of 168
"Teaching our girls to be proud of their bodies and to dress how they choose is "perverse just to be perverse"

No -- the OP's first reaction to the note, to do the opposite just BECAUSE its the opposite is being perverse just to be perverse. I am disturbed that that was her first reaction, rather than trying to figure out what is actually taking place at the school that created the reason for the note. Maybe its nothing, maybe the teacher is a 60 year old spinster who hates sex, but maybe the OP's daughter is actually having some kind of issue or trouble at school, and wouldn't it be nice to find out whether that is the case, rather than getting all offended (as some posters did) that the teacher wrote a note rather than called. I don't feel the immediate correct response here is anger -- rather it should be a request for more information from the teacher followed by anger if appropriate.

There are hippie or hippie wannabes on this site who think they're questioning authority -- but a lot of time what I see is dismissing authority just to show everyone how (supposedly) cool, unconventional or otherwise free-spirited they are or for hippie group cred, without thinking through the rationale for the request or rule and making a logical decision whether it makes good sense to abide by it.
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Mothering › Mothering Forums › Childhood and Beyond › Preteens and Teens › forced bra wearing?-updates pg. 5 and 7