Help me with my 4 year old

[Qerratsmom]

I need some alternative ways to gently discipline my 4 year old. He gets in these moods where he will purposely do exactly what he knows he is not allowed to (like climbing on the furniture, sneaking more snacks, waking up his sister). He laughs at my attempts to stop him or give consequences or other choices. He will continue to practice the unacceptable behavior over and over. I realize that he is probably exploring ways to get my attention but I need the blatant ignoring of rules to stop. I need help with a way to gently but firmly let him know that this behavior won't be accepted. ANy suggestions. Time outs don't work well with him.

[meemee]

*sigh* mama that is the exact place where i am at now with my newly turned 4 year old. so i will be watching this thread for guidance.

nothing works for my dd anymore who is hneeds, emotionally v. v. sensitive so i am just trying to figure out what is the worst she is doing that i cant stand. the part that gets me is she is no longer safe with unsupervised playing. i cant have her in the bathroom playing on her own. in the name of science experiment she has used up all my toothpaste, mouth wash (and these are the gigantic sized ones), my body spray and now my liquid makeup which i need as i go for interviews to find a new job.

i still dont know what to do. she is too sensitive for time outs. the warning counting does not work...

seh is like a little lawyer.... always answers with a but... but...

me - no you cant have any more candy. u could have one piece before bfast but no more.

dd - but.. but.. but .. mama i have never tried that kind before. can i have just one more.

... i have given into these and she starts off the same again.

one thing i have learnt i need to stand more firmer to my rules. aaargh this is soo hard for me. i respect her wishes but she cant get away with it. kwim? how do i keep the balance of being fair - of letting her get her way sometimes and me getting my way sometimes too when it is important.

i have never had this problem before. we would sit and she would always get it. i didnt have to supervise her play. now its like i have a 14 year on my hands.

[Jaimep]

Hi mommas. Well my DD is only 3 but we are seeing that she can't be unsupervised very much either as she plays in the water, gets into things, took the scoop and flung kitty litter and kitty poop all over the basement floor. YUCK!

Anyhow, I am reading How to talk so kids will listen and Listen so kids will talk. I love it.

Here is the guidelines they give for alternatives to punishment.

1. express your feelings strongly -without attacking character.
Example: Josh it makes me very upset when you wake up your baby sister.

2. State your expectations.
example: Josh, when baby sister is asleep, we have to play quiet things. Like paint, books or legos.

3. Show the child how to make amends.
Ex: Baby is crying now, you need to help play with her to make her happy.

4. Give the child a choice.
Example: The couch is not for jumping on, would you like to jump on the floor or outside?

5. Take action.
ex.- Pick the child up, take him outside and start jumping.

6. Problem -solve.
Ex. Mom: We have a real problem with you waking baby sister up. Lets write down some ideas of ways to keep you busy so that doesn't happen.

Then listen to the kids ideas. Mom does almost no talking. Let the child talk. Write it all down, so they know you are listening. Then go through them and pick out the ones you want to do. Be positive in your responses. like "sorry, listening to loud music would wake the baby up. So that is out. But I like your idea of painting at the table while she sleeps." Let child tell you the ones he likes best as well.

I gotta go, but these ideas have been working really well for my 3 year old lately. Just thought I would throw them out there for you.

[gaialice]

Qerratsmom, what is it that starts his bad moods? How frequent are they? How long do they last? I have had some success trying to keep a journal for a few days with my 5,5 yo. I have seen that there is often a pattern, and I am working on identifying triggers. In our case: not enough drinks, been too long since last snack, no set activity for dd to engage in, abrupt change from a situation in which she was highly stimulated to one in which she has to rely on herself for distraction. I am trying, although it is not easy, to be more attentive, to phase transitions better (like saying I cannot play with you any more but you can help me do this or you can do XWZ... ) and on days when I am able to do this, it's better. I also think, when he is in a bad mood already, can you try and stop what you are doing for 5 minutes to give him a hug, offer a snack, read a story.... reconnecting... even while telling him you only have 5 minutes on the timer.... I understand there is a younger sib (a baby?) and I know it is hard to find time...

[Qerratsmom]

thanks jaime i will be trying these suggestions!

[Qerratsmom]

and gaialice, I've thought of doing this (looking for triggers). Youve given me more motivation. I wonder about giving in to his disruptions by playing with him or reading a story. Will that only reinforce that bad behavior equals more attention from mom?
Kyra

[greencurry]

Kyra - I had this same concern at one point. I think you are doing the right thing. I can't remember where I read this idea (maybe Sears?), but it made sense to me: when they get to the point of "strongly expressing their need for attention" , give it to them.

In the future, avoid getting into that situation again by giving them attention when they're asking calmly, or even before they ask. But don't withhold it just because you missed their earlier (quieter) cues. The biggest thing you are reinforcing is that you will always take care of their needs, even when they express them in ways you don't like. Then when they are calm you can talk about ways that you'd prefer they ask.

Also, I really like the book Positive Discipline for Preschoolers, which recommends practicing tough situations when you're playing together. Like pretend to argue about whether it's okay to wake up a sleeping baby, what happens if you do, how else you can meet the need you're trying to fulfill by waking her up... in the context of a fun silly game.

I think writing down strategies to remind yourself when you're stressed is a good idea too. Good luck!

[greencurry]

Meemee - I also have a four-year-old who needs much more close supervision than most of her agemates. She has dashed away at parks, climbed fences to get away from me when I pick her up from friends houses, colored on furniture and rugs... At least your dd asks for more candy; mine would just find a couple chairs to stack up and climb them to get it herself :.

We've realized there's just no point in saying no to this girl. If something is dangerous and she wants it, we've got to make it physically impossible to happen. (It's weird though, on some things, she really believes us, like she doesn't go in streets alone and she asks before coming into the kitchen to make sure there's no hot stove or knives to worry about.

We try to give her lots of opportunities to explore and be messy and "break rules" in ways that are okay with us. Like tonight I told her I'd let her choose between three tapes to listen to before bed (rather than listing her entire collection for her). After I read them, she asked for a different one, and I let her have it.

I think this was the challenge you were talking about - if we give in sometimes, how does she know when we're going to give in? It seems to me like she does understand that sometimes I say "no this is not negotiable" and some issues are flexible. In the case of the tape, the "spirit" of the rule was me not wanting to read off twenty titles, and by coming up with one on her own, she was able to get what she wanted and I got what I wanted too.

When it's really important, I just tell her right away I'm not going to budge because it's a health or safety issue. And when I'm not completely attached to the outcome, I let her make her argument and see if she can convince me.

When I feel really frustrated because she's bouncing off the walls (okay, really just the beds, but still it freaks me out), I remind myself that learning safety and social skills is no different from learning fractions. What might seem obvious common sense to me just hasn't sunk in for her yet.

And when I'm feeling really patient I actually value her boisterous personality. Compliance isn't always the best quality to cultivate in people. Sometimes questioning authority can be a good thing. Just not when it's me.

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by Qerratsmom

and gaialice, I've thought of doing this (looking for triggers). Youve given me more motivation. I wonder about giving in to his disruptions by playing with him or reading a story. Will that only reinforce that bad behavior equals more attention from mom?
Kyra

Kyra, do not worry about that for a second. If you're dc are sick you will not stop giving them medicine because they misbehaved. The same goes for love and attention. Really. Children whose emotional needs have been fulfilled and whose love cups are full are joyful and playful. As a mom, I strive everyday to keep my dd's love cups full, although many times I am not able to, because there is soo much to do, because it seems that a child's love cup is never full for long, and sometimes because since I work fulltime I feel I sometimes become disconnected from the kids and I feel I do not know how to reach out to them. But I never stopped giving attention and love because the kids misbehaved. Not intentionally, if you see what I mean.
I could point you to a lot of books but there is an article by Naomi Aldort that sums it all up.
http://www.naomialdort.com/articles4.html
click on "Helping children resolve emotional hurts"
Sending hugs your way and hoping today will be a beautiful day for you.

[Qerratsmom]

Thanks everyone. I'm getting things back in perspective (I think I just lost it the last couple weeks, some of it having to do with pressure from "others" who don't always think we are "strict" enough with our kids. You mamas have reminded me to follow my instincts. My son needs more mama time. I feel like he is getting enough but then I"M NOT HIM!!! i guess he is in a needy time or can just tell that I am unconsiously (bad speller, sorry) pushing him away to get a little more time for chores, dd, dh, etc. Sometimes I feel like he should be more "understanding" and "independent" because that's what others expect me to want from him, but you know what? He's only 4 and that's fine with me. Thanks again mamas for the support

[MPJJJ]

Kyra, I know what you're going through... Joey was a strongwilled child at 3, 4, and now at 5! It doesnt seem like he's going to grow out of this anytime soon, so I think I'm gonna have to change the way I'm dealing with him, because being the authority figure doesnt seem to be working. He'll bring up things that we said weeks ago just to get upset about it. Michael was not and is not like this, so even though he's been this way for 5 years (literally since he was an infant) I still feel as though I am in unchartered territory.