How to Birth: Parenting Choice? - Page 2

[Lousli]

Funshine,
I don't agree that saying this is a mommy war issue is dismissive. Similar to the SAHM's who argue that daycare is "letting someone else raise your child" and the WOHM's who tell others that they are "wasting their education/talents by SAH" I think this is a very real issue that directly affects how women relate to one another.

First of all, I completely disagree that the decision of whether or not to have an epidural is part of someone's parenting philospohy and will affect their future parenting choices. It has a great deal to do with pain, exhaustion, differeing expectations about birth, and a whole host of other things. While you may make up your mind very definitely that you are a proponent of natural childbirth and that your intention and preference is to not have an epidural, it doesn't always work out that way. Many women who planned for and hoped for a natural birth are shattered when they do not achieve it. While part of the choice is philosophy, a whole lot more plays into when the time actually comes to make the choice.

About the future parenting choices...I don't know how to address that except to say that since coming to MDC I have learned to cloth diaper, co-sleep, gentle discipline, and extended breastfeed my children. I had an epidural before MDC and another one after. My future parenting choices were not affected by my epidurals but by my careful thought, research and interactions with other parents and my own children.

I also think it is a little bit unneccesary to include the father's opinion about the epidural because ultimately it is the woman who must sign the consent form and make the decsion.

I do agree that discussing philosophies can be incredibly important for people, especially parents, to help them make more informed choices. But again, just because you don't agree with a choice doesn't make it a poorly informed one. I had read a great deal about epidurals, hospital birth, etc. here on MDC, but when the time came to have my baby, my experience was such that I knew I would have no coping skills if I didn't have pain medication. I knew I would be in a panic and in uncontrolable fear and pain.

And also, if people here were always respectfully encouraging research about epidurals and their risks, or trying to help others make choices, I might be inclined to agree it isn't a mommy war issue. But when I start to just see a differing perspective totally dismissed as a "bad parenting choice" and I just see people posting eye-rolling smilies and "That's why I would never birth in a hospital" or "All SOB's are surgeons, and you don't go see a surgeon unless you want to be cut open" that's when I feel it has become disrespectful. It is incredibly unkind to those who have had traumatic births, or even those who made a choice that they later regret, as it simply opens up old wounds. In understand that this is a natural parenting board, and that is the perspecitive that is supported here. But I don't think to be in favor of natural childbirth you have to be disrespectful of people that didn't have one. I'm in favor of natural childbirth, and I do think that if a woman feels she is capable of it, she should do it. But if she doesn't feel capable, or if something goes wrong, it isn't my place to say that she didn't really need pain mangement.

I started a traumatic birth thread here, support only, and I had a lot of people come to read and post that they were glad to be able to tell their story without the judgement and invasive questioning they often get. You know, many of us get awfully tired of hearing, "well if only you had done this, you would have had the birth experience you wanted." : Wow. Thanks. That was really a really helpful and supportive discussion about parenting philosophies.

[Lousli]

Originally Posted by funshine

*I* find it offensive when people say things like "I made the choice that was right for me and my family" - when they didn't actually gather information and make an informed choice. Their only choice was perceived convenience over education. How any parent can justify that is beyond me. :

And again, here is an example of the type of comment that really bothers me. This is making a huge assumption about why people make the choices that they do. It assumes that people who are well educated will never choose an epidural. Maybe they did gather information and it was different from yours. Maybe it was the same exact information and they made a different decision. Before responding to a woman here who has made a "bad parenting choice" by having an epidural, are you checking to see what information she gathered, if any? How do you know the choice was not a good one for her and for her family? I know of one woman, for example, that had suffered sexual abuse and when in pain, she lost a lot of control and dignity. Sure the epidural has risks, but severe emotional trauma has risks as well.

But again, although I disagree with some of the wording, I do agree with some aspects of this posts. I too find it sad when people are given misinformation, biased information, or none at all. I think it is sad that many women don't have the faintest idea how their body works or what pregnancy and birth will be like. But i also try to remember that this isn't information that most of us are taught by our parents or in school. Many people haven't had a lot of contact with the medical community and feel no need to trust the research or information presented to them by their doctors. Can we put all of this on the women in question? Don't we need to discuss why doctors are telling people lies and why our education system doesn't even teach young people how their bodies work?

[elanorh]

I can see (and on many levels agree with) the argument that the decision to get an epidural *can* be seen as a "parenting choice." But, I don't think it's that black and white.

Yes, it's true, in a perfect world, women would do more research about how birth happens (just as they'd do more research about breastfeeding, child development, etc.) -- but in reality, much like nutrition and other pretty significant issues that affect women and their children, most women aren't educated in the area and we are told socially that it's not necessary anyway. There are lots of pseudo-experts who will tell the mother how to do things, whether in books or at the IL's house, and women follow along. Frankly, it's not that different from most other areas where people make decisions in our culture -whether it's how to vote, or what car to drive, or whatever. So, yes, a lot of moms make the decision without doing a lot of research on it because they just assume that what they've "seen"/heard about birth is true.

I think that there is a HUGE social vision of what childbirth (natural) is like, and it scares the you-know-what out of women. In movies, TV, from their friends, they all hear about how scary and awful it is. It's hard to be relaxed or even consider NCB when everyone/everywhere you're hearing that it will be roughly akin to Medieval torture KWIM? And, even if you intend NCB and have researched it, that socialization still may come back to haunt the birth experience for the mother .... I was fortunate, my grandma, mom, aunt, sisters, etc. have all done NCB so I grew up expecting it to be natural, normal, not scary like on TV .... At the same time, I also didn't do any research on NCB other than talking with my female relatives and an (in retrospect) quite good birthing class through the local hospital ( ) -- so went into it quite ill-informed. I had a wonderful natural child birth in the hospital with a great OB and we're looking forward to another sometime in the next few weeks.

But, I've got two good friends who both went into their birth experiences with midwives and one ended up with a csection for failure to progress -- and the other ended up transferred to a hospital and given an epidural after laboring for over 30 hours -- neither wanted interventions but they happened anyway and they are both good mothers. In the moment, given their circumstances and the support they had, they made the best decision they could. Now, another friend who had one NCB (of 5) got railroaded into induction/epi etc. with her most recent baby again due to HCP lack of support -- I don't know that it's a sign of her parenting skills, but rather of the way that we are socialized to put our trust into authorities and assume that they have our best interests in mind, when in reality, that's not always the case. Sometimes they're just interested in their own conveniences and biases. Afterwards she could quite clearly identify where things started cascading, but in the moment, she did what she was told to do.

[AllisonR]

Originally Posted by funshine

... it's about recognizing that the way we live our lives, the way we make choices, the philosophy behind it all, IS IMPORTANT. That does not mean that all people will have the same philosophy or make the same decisions. It's possible to make decisions that we later regret, or to change our philosophy after accumulating more experience, or to simply not put as much effort into one decision as we do into another. But still, who we are, the way we approach life, is very much a part of how we choose our birth experiences - or how we react to birth experiences that are thrust upon us. What's wrong with acknowledging that?

To go back to the OP, she stated that "if you chose to have an epidural and don't need one and know the dangers, that it's a poor parenting choice."

Epidurals have risks and benefits. Those affect children. Is it crazy to say that a parent has a responsibility to consider their child when making the decision to get an epidural? I am NOT saying that getting an epidural is a bad choice, just that it *is* a parenting choice, because one parent is having a medical procedure done, and that procedure will affect the mother and the baby. ...

Funshine - Your description is so clear and well put. Thanks.

I have one comment though - about how and WHEN the decison is made to chose/not chose epidural. Right now we are taling calmly and rationally about making a decison. But the original decision is not necessarily made when you are on an intellectual, thinking level. Are you actually considering the ramifications to yourself and to your baby? I can only speak for myself, but at the time: What baby? I did not know I was having a baby. I mean that. What baby? I was in SEVERE shock. I was floating above, watching my dead body, repeatedly begging to die. I was in a place so deep I was not signing any papers. I was not aware of other humans. I could not see. I had no idea a man was putting a needle in my spine, even though afterwards I found out I was told several times.

We all make the best decisions we can, at the time, with the info and knowledge (and in labor the instincts) we have. At the time it can be at such a primitive level that it doesn't even qualify as a decision. To those who say "chosing" an epidural is a parenting choice I think is offensive.

But I wouldn't wish my "birth" on my worst enemy. I don't want people to experience my "birth" to understand the offense. I would rather they say it is a parenting choice or it was uninformed or I didn't consider my baby. I am grateful they had a better, more positive experience and will just have to agree to disagree.

[Turkish Kate]

Chiming in with my 2 cents' worth here, although I don't really feel that I have a lot to add.

I can see both sides of this fence. With my first baby, I was an uninformed, young mother and was set on that epidural. Eighteen starving, thirsty hours of the worst Pitocin induction imaginable, I had a nearly 8# baby girl to show for it, but no epidural. I was angry for a couple of days about that, but over time I've come to realize that I am quite thankful that the anesthesiologist took a 4 hour coffee break. Knowing that I survived that birth has given me the courage to go ahead with this baby, at home and unmedicated.

Is pain medication in labor a parenting choice? Of course it is. Everything that you do from the moment of conception is a parenting choice. From what you eat, to what you drink, smoking, what you do to educate yourself--these are all parenting choices, just as feeding and diapering issues are parenting choices after baby is born. Is the mother who chooses an unmedicated birth a "better" mother than the one who chooses an epidural? Hard to say. Is the mother who breastfeeds a "better" mother than the mother who opts for artificial milk? Who can say?

We all have our own biases as to what we think are "perfect" parenting choices. My bias is very simple--anything you do that puts your wants ahead of your baby's needs is not your best choice. Does that mean that I haven't done exactly that at points in my daughter's life? Of course not. I can admit that I have selfishly put myself first at times, although I hope I can look back and honestly say that it wasn't often.

I believe that the lack of education is the biggest stumbling block for making truly informed decisions. But then why do we have this lack of education? There are books by the dozens about the risks/benefits of interventions in childbirth and countless websites and forums devoted to the same information. For those who are economically challenged, the public library offers the information for free--all you need is a library card. So why are women so uninformed? The information is out there, there is really no excuse for "not knowing."

Kate

[ccohenou]

Agree that the real issue with your comment is the "need" issue. I doubt many women have had epidurals who didn't believe they needed them. I wouldn't presume to tell someone what level of pain they have to endure before seeking relief to avoid "making a poor parenting choice". I've not had an epidural...my birth circumstances have been different to where it never came up, but I'm certainly a believer in natural birth and plan one for the coming baby God willing. Might well have been easier on my baby at least the last time if I had had one...we wouldn't have had to undergo the general anesthetic.

Anyway, if you are hearing the comment that you don't know what a woman's labor was like, you weren't there, and you don't have an accurate way to judge what was and wasn't needed - and you are hearing this so often that you are tired of it - it might be time to think about why that is. I don't believe anyone has ever said that to me, for instance.

[lolalola]

Originally Posted by anothermama

Anyways.....the point of contention came up in that I said that believe that in women who have the options and education availible to them, that the choice to have an epidural is a parenting choice and that if you chose to have an epidural and don't need one and know the dangers, that it's a poor parenting choice.

I am hesitant to say that having an epidural is a "parenting choice", mostly because I feel that our culture does enough already to blame mothers for everything related to our our children. Mother-blame runs rampant in North America, and so I try not to align myself with ideas that serve (intentionally or not) to perpetuate this. That said, I think women do themselves a disservice when they "choose" an epidural based on the anticipated pain of childbirth. For both of my children I was offered an epi without being asked about my pain level. I didn't accept the epi, but only because I felt like I could manage the pain, and I didn't want anything slowing down my labour. However, I wouldn't have felt like I was making a poor parenting choice for having an epidural.

[hubris]

Originally Posted by Lousli

First of all, I completely disagree that the decision of whether or not to have an epidural is part of someone's parenting philospohy and will affect their future parenting choices. It has a great deal to do with pain, exhaustion, differeing expectations about birth, and a whole host of other things.

I don't think you understood my point at all.

I did NOT say that having an epidural is a bad parenting choice. What I said is that the *way* a person makes a choice reflects their decision-making pattern in general. Nor did I say that choosing an epidural (for whatever reason) *affects* future decisions. What I *did* say is that it is important for parents to consider their own health and their child's health when making a decision. Sometimes benefits outweigh risks. The parent must decide what is truly best for their child and the various ways of achieving what is best for their child. In some cases, that might mean having an epidural.

Please note that I also mentioned that many parents change their philosophy as their children grow up. I also mentioned that parents may have different philosophies from each other and may arrive at different decisions.

If you re-read my post, you might come to realize that I was supporting you, not attacking you.

I'm sorry you object to my including the father. Every couple must decide how to make family-related decisions. While the mother is the one who will receive the epidural, I thought I would include the father because some couples find it useful to discuss these things together. Some do not. I'm not placing a value on either way of making a decision.

Regarding my comment that I feel offended by statements like "I made the choice that was right for me and my family" - I am NOT talking about making an assumption about somebody's decision-making process. I'm talking about people who tell me all about their decision-making process and admit to doing things that they know to be harmful for their children, in the absense of benefits that outweigh the risks. I actually know people who purposefully do not look for information. Seriously. I know people who will actually say that they know something is unhealthy for their child but that they just don't want to do anything else. I do not think that anybody should support that type of parenting. I just don't. I'm not talking about epidurals here, I'm talking about parents who openly claim to make decisions that are dangerous for their children but then say that it was "right" for their family.

The "don't judge" attitude is out of hand. Humans are social creatures. One purpose of society is to help each other to make decisions that benefit ourselves and our children. In order to do that, some amount of observing and assessing others has to be done, for the purpose of *gently* suggesting and supporting other ways that might be more beneficial to the parents and child.

I do agree with you that not all parents have access to the resources that might help to shape their decision-making process. If you don't even know that information exists, how are you to use that information? This is why I try to share information with people, and why I hang out at MDC, where I'm constantly learning about things that never even occurred to me.

Don't we need to discuss why doctors are telling people lies and why our education system doesn't even teach young people how their bodies work?

Absolutely. Of course, the doctors themselves often don't know that they're giving misinformation. They think they're helping women. Our society has a very negative attitude about birth right now, and that shapes how women approach birth, how doctors handle the women's fears, etc.



Back to parenting choices. I guess I don't have a problem with mother blame, as far as it applies to me. Sometimes I don't have information that would have affected my choices. I'm still responsible for that choice and if/when I gain more information, I have to decide what to do with it. Whether I pursue information or not, whether I make decisions that benefit or harm myself or my children...the ultimate responsibility for my children is mine. So I'm willing to accept the blame and the praise.


Ugh, I'm getting too rambly. Not enough sleep last night.

At any rate, my short version:

IMO, anything that affects a family is a parenting decision.

BUT that doesn't mean that a particular decision was "bad" or that the parent is a bad parent.

[lolalola]

At any rate, my short version:

IMO, anything that affects a family is a parenting decision.

BUT that doesn't mean that a particular decision was "bad" or that the parent is a bad parent.

While I think you are being very diplomatic here, the op'er was making a clear connection between women who choose to have an epidural when they don't "need" it, and poor parenting choices. I think this is what has some women feeling defensive and/or annoyed.

If the *way* a person makes a choice reflects their decision pattern in general (as you say), than you have to understand *how* a person came to make that choice, and during the labour process, some women may be too tired, scared, and in a great deal of pain to consider risks/benefits.(especially considering the "normalcy" of epidurals at birth, and the rate at which they are given) It is unfair to imply that a choice made under these unique circumstances reflects a woman's lack of consideration in her decision making in general.

[sparkprincess]

I guess I'm getting a different vibe from the op...

(I personally had a epi after 36 hours of not progressing, having my water broken, pit, etc. I was beyond exhausted and felt I couldn't handle the (increasing) pain any longer. I was totally bummed not to get my ncb, but we did the best we could at the time.)

I don't feel judged by the op at all. We were educated, we did try to avoid the epi (although I now know there is even more we could have done, but live and learn) we did the best we could with the knowledge and experience we had at the time. That, imo, is much different that the (many) friends I've had who brush off my talk of natural and say, "well just to let ya know, I'm getting the epidural ASAP". And refuse to research or discuss it further. The second attitude is the one I'm guessing the op is really commenting on. Am I correct?

And while I do understand that there are a lot of factors (fear of pain, worship of drs, etc) in how and why women choose to do certain things I do believe that the bottome line rests with the parents.

I circed my son. I Babywised him for a short time. Yes, societal influenced effected me A LOT. But am I going to brush off any responsibility? No. Am I going to get offended and upset when people (correctly) talk about the dangers of Babywise, circing, epidurals? HECK NO!! I accept the responsibility for making those descisions. And I don't lose sleep over them either. What's done is done - time to move forward and hopefully help educate others so they don't make the same mistakes.

In fact, parental responsibility is something I stress when I talk or blog about any topic. I try to drill in the fact that we as parents are completely and totally responsible for our children. Not our friends, our family, or even our doctors! WE ARE. I think that shift in thinking is important if we ever want to change things (the way we birth, routine vaxes, etc).

The last thing I wanted to comment on: while I think these discussions are good, and I overall agree with the op's assesment that everything we do that effects our children is a parenting choice, I guess I don't see the value of that line of thinking when it comes to educating people. It turns people off right quick! I have always found it more beneficial to give people hard stats and to remind them of their responsibility as parents and then leave it at that. More flies with honey type of thing.

Anyway, I could say a lot more, but I think I would just start to ramble.

Great discussion!

[anothermama]

Originally Posted by sparkprincess

I guess I'm getting a different vibe from the op...



That, imo, is much different that the (many) friends I've had who brush off my talk of natural and say, "well just to let ya know, I'm getting the epidural ASAP". And refuse to research or discuss it further. The second attitude is the one I'm guessing the op is really commenting on. Am I correct?

And while I do understand that there are a lot of factors (fear of pain, worship of drs, etc) in how and why women choose to do certain things I do believe that the bottome line rests with the parents.





Great discussion!

Yes.............it so hard to talk about, too, because people get REALLY defensive, so it almost seems fatalistic..........you almost just have to give up talking about it at all.

[lolalola]

Originally Posted by anothermama

Yes.............it so hard to talk about, too, because people get REALLY defensive, so it almost seems fatalistic..........you almost just have to give up talking about it at all.

Personally,I think it is VERY important to discuss these kinds of issues, and I'm grateful that there is a safe place like MDC to do so

And I admire you for putting your thoughts/perspective out there. Many people are so afraid of offending others that they end up not having an opinion at all....which is much worse than disagreeing with someone, because it closes all possibility of discussion and learning!

I just think that in the case of childbirth,( which is a very personal affair)women get sooooo tired of being scrutinized (or feel they are being scrutinized) for the choices they make, that a certain level of defensivness is inevitable.

[Awaken]

Originally Posted by funshine

Unfortunately, many women put more thought into what crib bedding to buy than into educating themselves about pregnancy, birth, parenting, etc. That's sad. My hope for them is that at some time down the road, their well-being and their babies' well-being starts to weigh more heavily in their decision-making process.

*I* find it offensive when people say things like "I made the choice that was right for me and my family" - when they didn't actually gather information and make an informed choice. Their only choice was perceived convenience over education. How any parent can justify that is beyond me. :

[ccohenou]

Thinking about this some more...
I certainly do believe that birth choices are parenting choices, in that they obviously directly affect my child. I feel a great weight of responsibility to make the most prudent birth decisions I can make, for the sake of my child. I have done things in bringing my children into the world that I *really* did not want to do, things that devastated me and ripped my body apart, because I believed that they were the best way to ensure the life and health of my children. And those are parenting decisions I am proud of, and my pride in those decisions is one of the few good and growing things that I have taken from my two otherwise traumatic and horrendous births.

And in part because of these experiences, I have a deep sense of not-knowing, especially when it comes to birth, and a real awareness that things do not always go according to plan. And so, although I do believe in making sound judgments and prudent parenting decisions based on the best available information, I *also* do believe that unless I was there and living it, there is no earthly way for me to know what was or was not needed, whether the pain was really unbearable, whether the baby was really in trouble, whether things would have gone well if not for x... There are true and factual things one can say: having an epidural increases the likelihood of a cesearean. Having an epidural may cause difficulties with blood pressure, fever, or fetal distress. Having an epidural may lead to breastfeeding difficulties. But there is no way for an outsider to decide whether the benefits outweighed the risks for any particular mother or labor. Really, who but the person who was there and living it could say?

[elanorh]

In re: not informing/educating re: childbirth

I've been thinking about this - I mentioned it a bit in my earlier post, and several others have commented on it too (this tendency of women, but actually of people in general, not to research things adequately (or at all)).....

I think it's easy for those of us who for whatever reason learned to be critical thinkers, and to think outside the box and question the System -- those who were raised to be strong individuals -- to think that everyone else ought to think similarly to us (in terms of questioning things, analyzing information, not making assumptions).

But if you look at our educational system we've got a tremendous dichotomy in the way we raise our kids. Most kids are raised to be "independent" from birth ( : ) (and really, not as independent as parents think) --- but then by the time they are starting pre-K/school, they are quickly socialized about groupthink and doing things "as expected" by their teachers, classmates, etc. Conformity is emphasized (and conformity is something we naturally veer towards as a species anyway, since we are herd animals (note: conformity *could* be to question things, but that's not the conformity we're teaching our kids, by and large - and by "we" I'm talking about the general culture, not necessarily MDC)).

So most people in our society are raised to:
1. Not question authority
2. Assume that what they're told/hear is correct
3. Lacking the intellectual tools/training to actually research/question/inform themselves.

Add into that mixture the assumption that some things (like parenting) are so basic and obvious that people don't need any education on them, and you've got a potent admixture for disaster (and lots of people who won't realize that's what even hit them, since it's what happens to most people they know anyway).

I think an example would be Home Economics/Nutrition -- many high schools and junior highs have completely phased out such courses. Cooperative Extension in some states doesn't offer anything about food safety/nutrition anymore. And yet, we have skyrocketing obesity and Type 2 Diabetes going on in our nation and research shows that over half of all meals consumed are prepared in restaurants/fast food chains. The justification for ditching all the nutrition etc. training is that "people learn that at home, it's easy and instinctual." But obviously, it's not, or we wouldn't have the mess we've got going on today. Despite that, you don't see many people making that connection between lack of knowledge and the results -- or clamoring to change it.

I know I rambled -- hopefully what I typed makes sense. I think in some ways when we say that mothers (and their partners) should have informed themselves better, it's almost a "blame the victim" approach. Sure, they should have researched it more adequately. But they've been raised to do as they're told and conform, and that it's not necessary to research things (that causes problems after all). So like many other issues -- it boils down to needing to figure out a way to help people learn (from childhood) how to be critical thinkers.

[sparkprincess]

Agh! So many good points that I want to comment on/agree with etc.

I think it's really good to discuss these topics and use discernment and, yes, even judgement. I think it's very worthwhile to dig into these difficult, sticky topics and examine them so we can hopefully make changes for the better.

I guess though, for me, the question(s) isn't so much "Is how we choose to birth a parenting choice", (because I believe that it is) but "How do we make these choices? What are our influences? How does that impact us? How do we change it?". And how do we present our knowledge to others without being accusing and harsh or weak and wishy-washy??

I guess what I'm getting down to is: for myself I believe that I can honestly feel that how we birth is indeed a parenting choice and yet I can hold that belief and try and educate others without being cruel, critical, pushy, and overbearing. I can believe that parents are responsible for the descisions they make and yet at the same time be fully aware of the pressures of the society and culture around us. I can educate with facts, figures, and logic while extending courtesy, respect, and empathy. So the bottom line for me is that I can, in a way, see both sides of the issue, but I don't feel that I have to go to one extreme or the other.

[Lkg4dmcrc]

Originally Posted by Turkish Kate

We all have our own biases as to what we think are "perfect" parenting choices. My bias is very simple--anything you do that puts your wants ahead of your baby's needs is not your best choice.

Putting your want of natural childbirth ahead of your baby's health counts, too, right? I know that I endured days of back labor, contractions 2 minutes apart, and absolutely refused any interventions and certainly an epidural because I did not want to be seen as a wimp. Consequently, days later, I end up with a very unwanted traumatic cesarean which is clearly not good for the baby. But my desire for a natural birth was so strong that I thought about risking death to my baby rather than be seen as a failure in birth and motherhood. Many other mothers in my position after just one day of labor went with the epidural and pushed their babies out. Perhaps the epidural in some cases is the better parenting choice?

[lolalola]

But my desire for a natural birth was so strong that I thought about risking death to my baby rather than be seen as a failure in birth and motherhood.

The flip side!! Clearly an example of how powerful the societal/cultural pressures are to conform to ideologies about what makes a "good mother". Sorry mama.

[ccohenou]

Originally Posted by Lkg4dmcrc

Putting your want of natural childbirth ahead of your baby's health counts, too, right?

For me, absolutely. I have given up my dreams, my hearts desire for a beautiful gentle birth, and gotten to be knocked out with GA and the baby cut out of me instead, as a parenting choice. And I think I was on the verge of making some very poor birth choices because of my own desire for a good birth. I probably delayed and fought longer than I should have, and it could have been catastrophic.

And on the flip side of judgment, I have (privately, silently) judged as unwise parenting some people's choices to have homebirths or UCs in the face of serious risks. Sometimes it has worked out for them in the end and sometimes it hasn't. Just goes to show...in the end I really don't know what will be best for anyone (including myself, when it comes to birth, I just make the best choice I can with the hand I am dealt).

[sparkprincess]

See though, I don't think that's what the op was meaning. I don't think anyone here is saying "Every single woman in the world needs to have her baby, unassisted, in the middle of the woods somewhere and if she doesn't she's a bad parent". (although I don't doubt for a minuted there are people out there that DO believe that!)

Again, we aren't talking about women who *in the process of childbirth* end up with a epi or c/s because of complications, etc. We are talking about women, like friends of mine, who outright say "I know there are risks, but I don't care! I don't want to feel any pain".

Does that make sense??