So sad, need to vent...

[SomedayMom]

I am a dentist and I work 1.5 days a week along with my husband. I only see kids, so when I'm there we have a lot of families with small children around. Today was my full work day.

Towards the end of the day I was working with a little boy in our room next to our waiting area. I could hear a little boy giggling. Then I hear the mom tell him to sit down and I hear him cry. Then I hear her yell at him to sit down again and that she's so sick of him and then I hear a slap and another cry and the mom says "well now maybe you'll behave".

My stomach was churning until I finished with my patient and I went to talk to our office manager. She had offered to take the little boy for a walk around the office. I saw him and the little guy was only 2. He couldn't even talk. Not a single word. He could barely look at you, but our office manager is just the sweetest woman, 4 children of her own. She is our only babysitter for DS other than grandparents and he adores her. She had this little boy so happy and he would just cuddle up to her. She listed out all the things this mom had been doing, pushing him around etc. She had another baby and a 5 year old girl that was in a room getting a cleaning. She had rudely told her little girl that she would not go back with her because of her little brothers.

So, my next patient is the 5 year old sister and this poor child is scared to death, won't look me in the eye, never cracks a smile. Just a sad, lost looking little girl. The mother finally does come to see her when it's time for me to do her two fillings and says "she's going to cry and be a baby no matter what you do". I freaking wonder why : Well, she actually did just fine, I make a point of being extra gentle all the time, but even more so with kids that are as scared as she was.

The 2 year old comes back in with a picture and I told him it was gorgeous, smiled, tried to make a comment about how great this age is and how wonderful it is that they can draw such imaginative pictures and this woman actually says "well, he just thinks everything he does is so great" and rolls her eyes.



We sat down to talk about them after all of this and we all had tears in our eyes. Totally torn about what to do. I checked as well as I could for any obvious physical signs of abuse as did the office manager while she was playing with the 2 year old. I see some bad parenting, but this was just awful. I almost wish the 5 year old had more work to do so I could have a chance to find out if this is the standard or if mom just handles stress exceptionally poorly. I mean, I know we all have meltdowns and get a little out of our normal MO, but...if she treats her kids like this in public...

Ughhhhhh. I feel like I need to put up a sign that you may not yell or spank your children in our office.

[bri276]

I hope this doesn't come out wrong- but aren't you a mandated reporter as a dentist? if she hit a chid in your office, I believe you are required by law to report that.

[veggiekicks]

How sad for those poor kiddos!

[SomedayMom]

Originally Posted by bri276

I hope this doesn't come out wrong- but aren't you a mandated reporter as a dentist? if she hit a chid in your office, I believe you are required by law to report that.

I am, which is why I looked for any obvious physical signs. Our office manager saw everything she did, and is doing some research into anything we should report This is the Bible Belt part of the country and corporal punishment is quite acceptable to the general public unfortunately. What we saw may not be enough, but what probably happens in private makes me want to do it.

[peacelovingmama]

That is so sad. I wish hitting kids were illegal so that mandated reporters DID have to report it.

But the sad reality is that hitting is legal and even embraced in our society. What you saw is legal, plain and simple. I think you are a really compassionate person SomeDay Mom. I wish there were some way to put up a spank-free zone sign that wouldn't lose you business....

[ejmom777]

Don't you wish you could just take them & hide them from their parents.
It's so sad that so many babies/kids would be better raised by a jungle of animals rather than their own parents.
I cry everytime I think about it. I have to see my neighbor treat her 2 girls ( 2 & 3) like they are the worst thing that ever happened to her when its the other way around. She's ruining their lives. But what can you do? If a foster family took them in ... who's to say they wouldnt be treated the same way & be even more screwed up for having been torn from their parents to some strangers. I wish I could just be there & hold them & tell them everything will be okay when I see them being treated so badly.

I would Most Definately have a sign saying something about how children should & shouldn't be treated. I would probably have one on every wall.

I'm glad that they had ya'll to be nice to them.

[JustJamie]

Can you report suspected emotional abuse?

[meemee]

and the saddest part is even if you report it, it does not assure a better result

[Joannarachel]

I think putting a sign up in the office is a good idea.

"This is a kid friendly place. We do not permit spanking or slapping on our property."

And depending on how much you want this lady's business again, I might send a letter to her noting that her physical abuse of the baby was observed and not appreciated.

[Ruthla]

How sad for that family. I somehow don't think this is just "a bad day" for her, considering how the 5yo was so meek and frightened, as opposed to being frightened of the situation but expecting her mother to be there for her. It sounds like she's given up on expecting comfort from her mother.

Unfortunately, I don't think she did anything illegal. She was definitely disrespectful of her children but that's not against the law.

[daniedb]

That is so very sad.

[ejmom777]

Joannarachel
And depending on how much you want this lady's business again, I might send a letter to her noting that her physical abuse of the baby was observed and not appreciated.[/QUOTE]

:

And also the emotional abuse. Which can be more damaging than physical.

And maybe an article that will WAKE her up and give her a new perspective of her child/ren (?) & how the way she treats them really affect them.
Because alot of people think they are supposed to be that hard on kids either because its the only way they know or they've been told or shown in some way to view their kids not so perfect actions as malicious or defiant. So their mindset needs to be changed. They just need someone to show them a diiferent way.
If there is the slightest possibility that I can help a child just by giving the parents a little information.. than thats what I'll do. Even if I have to step outside the lines to do it. Just maybe it will make a difference.
I too had this perception of kids before getting to know my neighbors & realized there had to be another way. So I researched & found the education I was looking for on these great forums. It's sad I know. Not many people look beyond what they've been taught to view as right.

[vermont mom]

now just hold on

I do not advocate hitting children. I also do not think the law should go so far as to criminalize a spanking, which some of you appear to support.

I am probably about to receive rotten tomato smilies, and I know this is the GD forum, but

in general:

I think the current climate of nosiness and judgementalism of how other people raise their children leads not to better parenting, but to more stress, especially for those at the lower end of the economic spectrum. More stress does not make for better parenting! Child-taking agencies almost never go after any family that has economic resources to fight back, and I hope you know that there are many instances of unjust interference in families. This is devastating. Be careful what kind of laws you wish for! Just do a little research into how this power is used as a weapon by the state. And even if the state was always good-intentioned, the courts are poorly tuned to really take care of the needs of any one.

I will try to provide a few links below, but i am nak/holding sleeping baby, so not sure how far I can go here.

There is a decent discussion here: The Telegraph

or see fightcps.com

[peacelovingmama]

Originally Posted by vermont mom

I do not advocate hitting children. I also do not think the law should go so far as to criminalize a spanking, which some of you appear to support.

I am probably about to receive rotten tomato smilies, and I know this is the GD forum, but

in general:

I think the current climate of nosiness and judgementalism of how other people raise their children leads not to better parenting, but to more stress, especially for those at the lower end of the economic spectrum. More stress does not make for better parenting! Child-taking agencies almost never go after any family that has economic resources to fight back, and I hope you know that there are many instances of unjust interference in families. This is devastating. Be careful what kind of laws you wish for! Just do a little research into how this power is used as a weapon by the state. And even if the state was always good-intentioned, the courts are poorly tuned to really take care of the needs of any one.

I will try to provide a few links below, but i am nak/holding sleeping baby, so not sure how far I can go here.

There is a decent discussion here: The Telegraph

or see fightcps.com

Just so you know, many of us who support anti-hitting laws do NOT support removing children from the home willy-nilly or even for a violation of those laws. I, for one, support a law such as many European countries have. In Sweden, for instance, hitting does not result in removal of a child. It results in mandatory counseling and parenting classes. I 100% support that. Parents need education, support and options. Not judgment and penal consequences.

I realize that research suggests that hitting kids is more prevalent among lower-income groups and those with certain cultural backgrounds. This is why I would want the law to be supported by lots of education, a public health campaign, and NOT harsh penalties like mandatory removal of children. I know that, in Sweden, when the law first came about in the 70's, it was not warmly embraced. Now, many years later, the vast majority of Swedes are opposed to hitting children. It truly has been absorbed into their culture. I hope and dream that will happen here one day.

Also, I think there is a good analogy to be made to domestic violence against adults. It used to be legal for men to hit/spank/discipline their wives. The law that protected women certainly invaded some family privacy and provoked opposition. But when it comes to human rights -- the right to be free of physical violence -- I (and many people) are ok with legislation. The legislation should be limited to violence and no one is suggesting that the gov't should become involved in decisions like organic vs. non-organic, co-sleep vs. crib, bf vs. formula, etc. Violence is an appropriate place to draw the line.

Also, since hitting kids is so firmly entrenched in our culture, I would vote for an advisory law to begin with (like the one in CA that was defeated by one ONE vote or the one in MA that I believe is pending). That way, the message that violence against kids is unacceptable is sent but no one gets punished for it. Then, after this has sunk in for a generation or so, I would want to see mandatory education and/or counseling added. Not taking children away or jailtime for parents. I would reserve that for the (unfortunately) all-too-common instances where the hitting has escalated to serious injury or death.

One final point I must make. I am a lawyer and am very familiar with the huge number of children who die/are permanently injured from what started as a "spanking." All you have to do is search LEXIS, a legal database, type in "spanking" and what your search yields will have you in tears. Manyvictims of "spankings" gone awry are babies and toddlers. And we don't even have a law like some countries that forbids hitting children under a certain age. Most laws simply provide that the hitting must be "reasonable." Many children could be saved if only we would step forward as a society and condemn violence against them.

In case after case after case, witnesses testify that they were aware of the hitting but never reported it because "it was just a spanking" which, of course, is perfectly legal now. A child died a few years ago in a neighboring community and many people had witnessed years of spanking with belts, branches, sticks, etc. and one witness commented after the boy died: "I thought it was just a spanking, like any child would get." So there is a HUGE upside to protecting children. Sure, many abusers will do so no matter what, but what if we sent a clear message to people that violence against kids is not ok? What would our society look like? Now? In a generation?

Edited to add: I don't purport to speak for all GD'ers or everyone here. I know I have especially strong feelings about violence against children. Although I am proud of America in many ways, there are 3 things about our culture that absolutely embarrass me: 1) that it still is legal to hit young people; 2) that NIP is even an issue; 3) that we haven't yet had, and don't seem all that close yet, to having a female leader. I have lots of passion around all 3 of these issues and truly won't be content until each of them changes.

[hipumpkins]

My ped has some wonderful posters in their iffuce about being kind to children..I'm sure you could get some of those. Of course now I can't remember what they say but it is like: children who live with patience learn to be somehting or other...I'm sure someone here kows it. Anyway there are a whole bunch of them.

[emma_goldman]

Originally Posted by Joannarachel

I think putting a sign up in the office is a good idea.

"This is a kid friendly place. We do not permit spanking or slapping on our property."

Our pediatrician has a sign like this: "This office is a spank-free zone." With maybe a little font explanation or website beneath it.

[WuWei]

The NoSpank.net site has stickers and a PDf file that has a Spank Free Zone sign that can be printed off and posted in your office. http://www.nospank.net/main.htm

Sorry you had to observe that. NoSpank.net also has an informative, well researched free booklet that can also be printed off, or they'll send it for free. It is called "Plain Talk About Spanking". It discusses the psychological damage caused by parents hitting children. http://www.nospank.net/pt2006.pdf

Here is an article about 'What should I do if I see someone hitting their kids?' http://www.nospank.net/stang.htm


Pat

[aywilkes]

Originally Posted by JustJamie

Can you report suspected emotional abuse?

Unfortunately in the grand scheme of things for CPS thiss would not be an issue warranting action.

[aywilkes]

Originally Posted by peacelovingmama

I realize that research suggests that hitting kids is more prevalent among lower-income groups and those with certain cultural backgrounds.

Also, since hitting kids is so firmly entrenched in our culture, I would vote for an advisory law to begin with (like the one in CA that was defeated by one ONE vote or the one in MA that I believe is pending). That way, the message that violence against kids is unacceptable is sent but no one gets punished for it. Then, after this has sunk in for a generation or so, I would want to see mandatory education and/or counseling added. Not taking children away or jailtime for parents.

The media and Researchers would have us believe that spanking occurs most in certain cultures and low economic levels, but the sad reality is that many wrongs that happen in affluent or middle class families that constitute neglect and/or borderline abuse don't get reported because those people are nto monitored - no need to go to welfare office, etc. Therefore, this education should maybe be more widespread for everybody - not just reported persons.

[rmzbm]

Can I just say that I am now, officially, going to start cyber-stalking peacelovingmama? I always get so flustered & bent out of shape, not knowing what to say when it comes to stuff like this. Then she says it, eloquently, peacefuly, and always respectfuly. She's my GD hero! *swoon*