herd immunity and civic responsibility

[wonderwahine]

gimmie some links debunking herd immunity, I've seen the chart in MTs book with the declining occurances even before the vax was introduced, but I want more.

.........and well....we all know how I feel on the second part

[lyttlewon]

Originally Posted by romans_mum

gimmie some links debunking herd immunity, I've seen the chart in MTs book with the declining occurances even before the vax was introduced, but I want more.

.........and well....we all know how I feel on the second part

I don't have any links per se but I always just do basic math. In 2003 WA state was reported to 86% immunization rate. Of those 86% the purported effiacy could be between 70%-90% depending on the vax. In 2005 my state had 6.2 million residents. That is hundreds of thousands of people not vaccinated. Multiply that across the states and you are in the millions.

[wonderwahine]

Originally Posted by lyttlewon

I don't have any links per se but I always just do basic math. In 2003 WA state was reported to 86% immunization rate. Of those 86% the purported effiacy could be between 70%-90% depending on the vax. In 2005 my state had 6.2 million residents. That is hundreds of thousands of people not vaccinated. Multiply that across the states and you are in the millions.

and those are the people that pro vaxers argue are spreading the diseases.

[mrsfatty]

Seriously, show me something that proves herd immunity. I'd love to see it.

Also, if you want charts--the CDC has a lot of those...plus you can check out the MMWR (on CDC website) to see the reported incidents of disease...and make your own chart--to see for yourself the "relationship" there is between disease and vaccinations...

[wonderwahine]

Seriously, show me something that proves herd immunity. I'd love to see it.

I agree, i've never seen anything that proves it, but people love to argue the point anyway.

[Deborah]

Herd immunity means two different things, and we need to be clear on the difference.

In the old days, it meant that the majority of the population had had the disease and was, therefore, immune and wouldn't get it again. Mothers passed temporary immunity to their babes, limiting the incidence of some illnesses in very early life, children caught most everything during childhood and by the time they grew up were immune to most diseases. Mortality to these diseases was a result, not of the inherent viciousness of the disease, but the challenges of the human social and ecological environment, which consigned a large portion of the population to horrendous living conditions.

The other herd immunity is the belief that by vaccinating, the circulation of particular illnesses can be stopped, thereby increasing the sum of human health and happiness. This overlooks the substitution factor (block one illness, another will fill the niche), the increasing age factor (children don't get the diseases, teenagers and adults do), the loss of protection of infants and so forth. Plus the fact that some vaxes seem to spread the disease, others seem to undermine the immune system, and they all contain toxic substances, lessening the overall health of the population. Some herd immunity!

Whoops, forgot to mention the "booster" effect from circulating disease. One reason adult immunity held up was regular exposure from children with the illness. Reminded the body of the illness, thereby reinforcing the immune response (or something like that).
Deborah

[wonderwahine]

thanks deborah

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by Deborah

Herd immunity means two different things, and we need to be clear on the difference.

In the old days, it meant that the majority of the population had had the disease and was, therefore, immune and wouldn't get it again. Mothers passed temporary immunity to their babes, limiting the incidence of some illnesses in very early life, children caught most everything during childhood and by the time they grew up were immune to most diseases. Mortality to these diseases was a result, not of the inherent viciousness of the disease, but the challenges of the human social and ecological environment, which consigned a large portion of the population to horrendous living conditions.

The other herd immunity is the belief that by vaccinating, the circulation of particular illnesses can be stopped, thereby increasing the sum of human health and happiness. This overlooks the substitution factor (block one illness, another will fill the niche), the increasing age factor (children don't get the diseases, teenagers and adults do), the loss of protection of infants and so forth. Plus the fact that some vaxes seem to spread the disease, others seem to undermine the immune system, and they all contain toxic substances, lessening the overall health of the population. Some herd immunity!

Whoops, forgot to mention the "booster" effect from circulating disease. One reason adult immunity held up was regular exposure from children with the illness. Reminded the body of the illness, thereby reinforcing the immune response (or something like that).
Deborah

Yep.
But now they've got an answer for the "booster effect" problem, too. Everybody get vaxed for everything every few years from birth till death!
HaHA!
How serendipitous for the manufacturers, huh?

[wonderwahine]

and if they still dont work, theres always that myth that the vax makes you get a milder version

[Spy]

Originally Posted by romans_mum

and if they still dont work, theres always that myth that the vax makes you get a milder version

And if not, it' all our fault - we're the dangerous crazy anti-vaccine mob spreading the diseases!
:nana: :

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by Spy

And if not, it' all our fault - we're the dangerous crazy anti-vaccine mob spreading the diseases!
:nana: :

I still say the most interesting and creative use of that explanation was when the US Mumps epidemic was blamed on nonvaxers in the UK.

[trmpetplaya]

Originally Posted by romans_mum

and if they still dont work, theres always that myth that the vax makes you get a milder version

It's so cool how the researchers, you know, got into that alternate universe so they were able to compare the same child both vaxed and not so they were able to find out that the unvaccinated child had the worse case of VPD :

love and peace.

[InfoisPower]

Herd Immunity by definition is a THEORY.

1) a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explantaion for a class of phenomena. ie. Einstein's theory of Relativity.
2) a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural , in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
3) Mathmatics. A body of principles, theorems, or the like belonging to one subject. ie. number theory.
4) the branch of scient or art that deals with its principles of methods, as distinguished from its practice. ie. Music theory
5) a particular conception or view of somthing to be done, or of the method of doing it; a system of rules of principles.
6) contemplation or speculation
7) guess or conjecture.

I've bolded the ones that fit the theory of herd immunity in my opinion.

[Plummeting]

Originally Posted by mamakay

I still say the most interesting and creative use of that explanation was when the US Mumps epidemic was blamed on nonvaxers in the UK.

Yeah, that one was, uh, unusual.

[LydiaJW]

Don't know much about this one...just wanted to say the civic responsibility really gets my goat. Does any parent in the world REALLY think they should put the rest of the world before their own family?: thats pretty disturbing to me.