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3 yo still in diapers, help me undestand - Page 8

post #141 of 201
Quote:

I also tend to lean on the side that 3 is a bit old to still be in diapers, and I do blame the manufacturers of the products for older kids in having a vested interest in keeping kids in diapers longer. But I don't know enough about PL or ages kids PL to really say one way or the other.
This reminds me of comments from people who have never nursed a toddler, but say if they are old enough to walk up to you and ask for it they are too old to nurse.
post #142 of 201
I was once involved in a very similar discussion to this on another board and I posted thoughts similar to this:

When your child takes his first real test in school - will one of the questions ask when he potty trained?

When your child is graduating from high school and applying for college - will she have to disclose when she potty trained on her applications?

And when your child is looking for his first real job - will potty training be on his resume?

How about when she runs for public office - will her opponent bring up the fact that she potty trained early or late?

In the grand scheme of things - when your child potty trains will mean next to nothing in his/her life!
post #143 of 201
I can't believe how judgemental so many people are about this issue. My 7 year old niece recently had a sleep over and wet the bed. she woke me up at 3am. It happens. I didn't make her feel terrible or think her parents were lazy because she was already embarrassed enough and these things happen.

My son is a later PL'er. He is bright, intelligent, we've been trying but not obessing. Like another poster said, pick your battles. From my experience girls do typically learn much quicker than boys on this issue. However, I've known girls who were just PLing during the third year so I hate to gender stereotype.

Just because a 3 year old isn't using the potty regularly with all incidents it doesn't mean the child is stupid, the parents or lazy, etc. Children learn different milestones at different times. Also, allow if there any big changes going on in the house such as divorce/seperation, moving, introduction of a new sib, etc. as all of these can slow down PLing.

For the people who are so grossed out by it, I feel sorry for you. What are you going to do if your child happens to go through a bed wetting stage later on or something? Have you ever had to care for an elderly adult who had incontence issues? Have you ever lost bladder control while you were pregnant? Come on, being 3 and still in diapers is really not "gross" or that big of a deal. I've known people who have started forcing potty training on thier kids and spent 6 months battling the issue--I'd rather just have a slightly delayed learner.
post #144 of 201
OK, I just read through this thread and feel the need to give my 2 cents.

I am surprised on this board that more support is not being given for "child-led potty training". Most of us would be horrified if you substituted "breastfeeding" for "potty training".

I am a lazy potty trainer. I give some encouragement, etc. but when they are ready, they will be ready. My children have all been trained after 3, my son later than the girls.

My 7 yo has never been dry at night. I have resisted pressure to put her on meds, it doesn't bother her, why should it bother me.

I see many, many kids not potty trained at 3. If you were my babysitter, I would let you know they are still in diapers, but I wouldn't want to be called to come back to change them. If it bothers you that much, you probably aren't the person for the job.

My opinion, and it's only that, is that we parents are much more concerned about this issue than the kids and their friends.
post #145 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylith View Post


As the mother of an almost-4yo who still wears diapers about half the time, I can tell you I certainly feel judged and defensive when reading threads like this.
You're right about that

All my boys trained very late. Let's just say they were all wearing diapers at your son's age but now theyr'e not. None wore diapers in Kindergarten.

I had no idea it bothered people so much.
post #146 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pynki View Post
I've known plenty of three year olds have 3 boys age 3 and older now, and as long as you are changing the child there isn't any wallowing in fecal matter. Most of the time, the other kids don't even notice. The MOMS notice before the kids do.
Yeah, in my daughter's class of three year olds I've never seen a child be clued in to that, either.
post #147 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by savithny View Post
Let me go on the record as saying that *most* moms with a child who is 3+ and not using the potty do NOT need ANY more suggestions.

The majority of moms I know with later trainers (myself included) HAVE TRIED WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO SUGGEST.

Yes, we tried it.
Yes, we were consistent.
Yes, we stuck with it for more than a day.

What is is about the sight of the edge of a diaper above the pants of any child over three that makes it open season on comments? Heck, both my kids are *very* tall for their ages, so we started getting comments earlier than that. Random strangers on the street would first try to *shame* my child ("you're a pretty big boy to still wear diapers? Do you think you're a baby still?") and then would offer me helpful "hints" like "have you tried naked time?" (Um, yeah. But maybe if you describe it to me for the hundredth time it'll suddenly work!)

.
I have so BTDT. Fun, isn't it?
post #148 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Venice Mamacita View Post
: Our son is 3y4m, and peed in his potty for the very first time on Saturday (hasn't done it since, either).

snip
Yes, we've tried it all. Yes, I've read the books and scoured the MDC threads and the internet at large. Yes, he's fully capable of using the potty . . . and he just doesn't feel like it. I have full confidence that he will PL at some point before he goes to college. This doesn't make me a bad, ignorant or lazy mother . . . just like the fact that he still nurses doesn't make me a bad mother . . . and the fact that he still co-sleeps . . . and the fact that he's not circumcized or vaccinated . . .

. . . but MY mom sure thinks it does.
We have the same mother Hang in there it will happen
post #149 of 201
Quote:
try to *shame* my child ("you're a pretty big boy to still wear diapers? Do you think you're a baby still?")
^ grrrrr!

The whole ""you're a big boy now" drove me nutso - and I think contributed to DS not being super-interested in using the toilet "full time" until he was about 4. He'd just started to wean, and was really sensitive about the whole growing up thing. One of the reasons we left our first attempt at preschool was they wanted him to be out of pull-ups (at 3 and a half) and were really snarky with us about it when we said we didn't want to force him.

I made the toilet available and fun (lots of books to read, i'd stay in there with him if he wanted.) I tried to make the idea more of a "being part of the tribe" thing - it's something we all do, just like eating and sleeping. As he's a boy, the discovery that he could pee outside on a tree was hugely exciting.

And, fact is, when he did "get it" he got it all at once - he had maybe 2 pee accidents, tops, in the first couple of days wearing regular pants, then, never again.
post #150 of 201
Wow, I am shocked at the judgment and hatred being heaped apon those who have chosen to do something against our Western cultural norms by introducing the potty to their infants.

I read this entire thread, and not once did I see an ECer judge a diapering or late-PLing momma. HOWEVER, I have seen about 5 pages of hatred and ridicule being thrown apon mommas who have only stated that they are uncomfortable with older children in diapers. NOT one of those comments was a personal attack, and most cited historical/anthropological data to explain their discomfort. Natashacat stated several times that it was UNFAMILLIAR to her and that she wanted to approach the situation with full knowlege of what was common in this society.

Why is it that when an ECer, especially one who has NEVER known what it is to potty train a child (that right, I have 2 children who use the potty and they have never been "potty trained"), says that they EC and don't understand older children in diapers, they accused of judgement on these boards merely by stating that they don't understand something??

the fact is that an ECed child does not need to be potty trained in the way that so many of you understand that phrase. There are almost NO incidents of withholding, no incidents of requesting a diaper to urinate or defecate because children who are ECed do not consider clothing the place to do these things (and yes, there are results from a scientific study on Western EC pending). ECers are NOT doing early Potty Learning, we are doing something that is completely different.

Please stop judging us for making that choice. Please stop assumming that our choice, and our feelings about older children in diapers, have ANYTHING to do with your choices to do otherwise.

I didn't hear of EC until my son was 2 months old. He was in disposable diapers for the entirety of that time and, had we not learned about EC, we would have followed his cues for potty learning. But, we did learn of EC and we learned that he WAS already cuing us to use the potty, so we followed those cues.

I KNOW that most American families do not know that their babies are cueing them to use the potty, and that many of them don't even believe that an infant has any idea that they have to use the potty. Because a baby who has used a diaper from birth does not have the same sensations or muscle control as a baby who has NOT used a diaper from birth. Potty Learning is about teaching a child to feel the sensations of needing to go and then going in the appropriate place. An ECed child experiences those sensations from the beginning so they never have to re-learn them. An ECed baby is NOT the same as an early potty learning toddler. That is why there are support groups for Late-Starting ECers, because they are NOT the same thing.

Those facts are not judgement about the baby who has been diapered from birth, nor is it judgement about the parents of that baby. They are just facts about how EC works and how diapering works.

As foreign as it is for all of you who have diapered your children to understand how ECed babies could possibly know when they have to go pee/poo or feel it coming, or would prefer the potty, that is how hard it is for ECers to understand how a child could NOT know, could NOT feel it, or could prefer the diaper.

That is not judgement, it is sharing different points of view. The OP and those like her who posted to this thread were trying to get some understanding of your POV and were trying to share some knowlege about our POV. For us it is very similar to how militant breastfeeders feel, that if mothers only knew all the benefits and knew that their babies were designed for breastmilk, that they would nurse their babies.

The day I learned about EC a lightbulb switched on and it made perfect sense to me. I felt dumb for not thinking of it sooner, but I grew up in a culture that had NO experience with such a thing. I have spent 6 years being ridiculed, derided, told I was judging someone for choosing to have my children be diaper-free. I keep thinking thatin 2006 on a board such as this one, with mommas who support alternative lifestyles and natural, gentle parenting techniques, that I could finally start to share that I am an ECer without fear of flaming and it makes me sad and furious that it is still not so.

We were not attacking your point of view at all (please show me the lines that attacked child-led PLing), yet many of you attacked our POV when we merely stated it.

Now we'll all slink back to the EC forum where we can share our thoughts without 8 pages of flaming.
post #151 of 201
The argument here is a lot more simple than that.
I think most people here realize what EC is and how it works.
They didn't do it from birth for whatever reason.
Their 3.5 year old isn't potty learned and they are feeling embarrassed.
ECers come onto the thread and talk about how "weird" that is and "uncomfortable" that 'makes' them and spout off all the benefits of ECing. Well that's really great and all, but how does that help these mothers?...
post #152 of 201
Quote:
Their 3.5 year old isn't potty learned and they are feeling embarrassed
No embarrassment here! As I said in my post above, in the grand scheme of life, potty-learning is such a small thing!
post #153 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmace View Post
No embarrassment here! As I said in my post above, in the grand scheme of life, potty-learning is such a small thing!

I didn't mean to imply everyone was embarrassed. I just frequently see threads of distressed moms asking for help and support, only to hear a constant stream of, "It's unnatural and weird, if you'd EC'd..." - it kind of brings them down, kwim?
My DD is potty learned now, but wasn't a month ago and while I wasn't embarrassed it certainly didn't help my demeanor any to hear people come onto support threads in order to boast.
post #154 of 201
Well as the Mother of 3 year old who shows ZERO intereset in PL, those responses shamed and embarrassed me. I never thought I would see those flaming responses on a Natural Parenting website. In the instance of PL, you would think the AP philosphy would be child-led...why is PL an exception???

You can't pick and choose what's AP and what's Not when it's not your child at stake.
post #155 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by littleteapot View Post
I didn't mean to imply everyone was embarrassed. I just frequently see threads of distressed moms asking for help and support, only to hear a constant stream of, "It's unnatural and weird, if you'd EC'd..." - it kind of brings them down, kwim?
My DD is potty learned now, but wasn't a month ago and while I wasn't embarrassed it certainly didn't help my demeanor any to hear people come onto support threads in order to boast.
exactly, babs. i'm definately not embarassed k isn't pl'd, i'm maybe a bit frustrated over it (because, really, i don't enjoy toddler poo), and i would love someone to come in with a magic wand and make it so she'll pee and poo on the potty but that's just not going to happen. k is very bright and verbal and mature in a lot of ways, she just hasn't gotten around to pl'ing yet and i don't feel comfortable shoving her into it any more than i have (yo, the GUILT over the uti? i don't think i'll ever get over it). she'll learn when she learns. i don't need people who have NOT gone through what we have and are going through coming in and telling me how "uncomfortable" and "weird" it is that she wears a diaper. who here is changing MY kid's diaper besides me and my family?
post #156 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubelin View Post
Wow, I am shocked at the judgment and hatred being heaped apon those who have chosen to do something against our Western cultural norms by introducing the potty to their infants.

I read this entire thread, and not once did I see an ECer judge a diapering or late-PLing momma. HOWEVER, I have seen about 5 pages of hatred and ridicule being thrown apon mommas who have only stated that they are uncomfortable with older children in diapers. NOT one of those comments was a personal attack, and most cited historical/anthropological data to explain their discomfort. Natashacat stated several times that it was UNFAMILLIAR to her and that she wanted to approach the situation with full knowlege of what was common in this society.

Why is it that when an ECer, especially one who has NEVER known what it is to potty train a child (that right, I have 2 children who use the potty and they have never been "potty trained"), says that they EC and don't understand older children in diapers, they accused of judgement on these boards merely by stating that they don't understand something??

the fact is that an ECed child does not need to be potty trained in the way that so many of you understand that phrase. There are almost NO incidents of withholding, no incidents of requesting a diaper to urinate or defecate because children who are ECed do not consider clothing the place to do these things (and yes, there are results from a scientific study on Western EC pending). ECers are NOT doing early Potty Learning, we are doing something that is completely different.

Please stop judging us for making that choice. Please stop assumming that our choice, and our feelings about older children in diapers, have ANYTHING to do with your choices to do otherwise.

I didn't hear of EC until my son was 2 months old. He was in disposable diapers for the entirety of that time and, had we not learned about EC, we would have followed his cues for potty learning. But, we did learn of EC and we learned that he WAS already cuing us to use the potty, so we followed those cues.

I KNOW that most American families do not know that their babies are cueing them to use the potty, and that many of them don't even believe that an infant has any idea that they have to use the potty. Because a baby who has used a diaper from birth does not have the same sensations or muscle control as a baby who has NOT used a diaper from birth. Potty Learning is about teaching a child to feel the sensations of needing to go and then going in the appropriate place. An ECed child experiences those sensations from the beginning so they never have to re-learn them. An ECed baby is NOT the same as an early potty learning toddler. That is why there are support groups for Late-Starting ECers, because they are NOT the same thing.

Those facts are not judgement about the baby who has been diapered from birth, nor is it judgement about the parents of that baby. They are just facts about how EC works and how diapering works.

As foreign as it is for all of you who have diapered your children to understand how ECed babies could possibly know when they have to go pee/poo or feel it coming, or would prefer the potty, that is how hard it is for ECers to understand how a child could NOT know, could NOT feel it, or could prefer the diaper.

That is not judgement, it is sharing different points of view. The OP and those like her who posted to this thread were trying to get some understanding of your POV and were trying to share some knowlege about our POV. For us it is very similar to how militant breastfeeders feel, that if mothers only knew all the benefits and knew that their babies were designed for breastmilk, that they would nurse their babies.

The day I learned about EC a lightbulb switched on and it made perfect sense to me. I felt dumb for not thinking of it sooner, but I grew up in a culture that had NO experience with such a thing. I have spent 6 years being ridiculed, derided, told I was judging someone for choosing to have my children be diaper-free. I keep thinking thatin 2006 on a board such as this one, with mommas who support alternative lifestyles and natural, gentle parenting techniques, that I could finally start to share that I am an ECer without fear of flaming and it makes me sad and furious that it is still not so.

We were not attacking your point of view at all (please show me the lines that attacked child-led PLing), yet many of you attacked our POV when we merely stated it.

Now we'll all slink back to the EC forum where we can share our thoughts without 8 pages of flaming.
I don't see anyone flaming EC-ers here. I see a whole lot of mothers who have children who PL after 3 being told they are lazy, or neglectful for getting their children out of their own waste before they are 3 years old. Hell before they are 2. You need examples of what is setting diapering moms off? Ok. How about these?


Bolding mine

Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies View Post
I understand your discomfort. All six of my kids knew how to use the toilet by the tim ethey were able to get up on it. No child is going to wake up one day and decide to use the toilet. I really don't understand why parents would put that kind of responsibility on a child, anyways.
The toilet is the most sanitary and hygenic place to urinate and defecate, when living inside a city/house.

Since you are watching this child, can you help him learn to use the toilet?
It does become difficult when they have spent their entire life using diapers, but most children would rather not defecate/urinate on themselves.

Hope something gets resolved for you.
That would be what most othe moms are railing against.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuller2 View Post
...
At the risk of inviting much displeasure (and knowing that my experience is unusual in our culture) I have to say that it seems that kids potty-learn much later these days then they used to. A day care provider I know who's been doing for 20 years says that kids start using the potty a year or two later than they did even 10 years ago--she blames disposable diapers and especially pull-ups, because they are so absorbent the kid can't really feel the 'outcome' of what they just did. Another problem is the day care environment--providers just aren't, in most cases, going to work on potty training because diapers are a lot easier that dealing with 'accidents'--and then when mom and dad come home from work, they are ALSO too tired to deal with accidents--so the diapers stay on.
...
That's really judgemental. Lazy DCP or lazy parents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mother culture View Post
I seem to have a different View of this subject. I have 3 boys and all were introduced to the potty from birth and I used cloth diapers. All of them were PL'ed at 23 mos but still wetting at night occasionaly. I think parents in our scociety teach their babies and toddlers to use their diapers as a potty and then wait for readyness and then begin changing behaivior by talking about potty and visiting the potty. I think this is the problem. I personally am uneasy when I see a 3 year old in a diaper. They should at least be able to pee in the potty or outside by this age and out of diapers. Underwear are not much harder to change if poop happens adn it sends the child a clear lesson. I would talk to the parents and say can you please bring a stack of underwear with the little boy because he may surprise them.
Because again. A friend of the family who occassionally watches the boy knows him better than his parents is the under riding thought with that. Just wow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katallen View Post
If it makes you uncomfortable (and it would me too) then consider talking to the mother about working on encouraging potty learning at home. It may be that she is assuming that he will get up one day and decide to go in the toilet without any encouragment or instruction and he may, but I think it is unlikely that he will learn to use a toilet without knowing what to do and getting encouragement and the reassurance that accidents are okay and everyone makes mistakes and he can try again next time. He will probably just get used to having pee and poop against his skin and by the time his parents get tired of changing him they will have to go through a lot of effort to teach him and you will be stuck changing huge very disgusting diapers.

If they won't teach him at home maybe you could teach him what to do at your house by letting him watch while the other children use the toilet, encouraging trying about every two hours and reading him a story while he is on the toilet. On top of this, try to make diaper changing time as quick and as boring as possible. There is a lot of attention given during a diaper change and if he learns to expect that while he is on the toilet he may decide that it is more fun to use a toilet.
Again... You can't see why posts like this would upset mothers on this board who are VERY MUCH about making thier own decisions in their children's lives?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies View Post
...

Yes, a child will be harmed if you ridicule them, hit them, demean them. But not if you treat them as a human being. Human beings have spent a millenium not defecating where they eat, live and play, and especially not on themselves.
STEEPED in judgemental language.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stayathomemommy View Post
I agree with MamaInTheBoonies maybe he just needs some encouragement to start PL. I am not saying he should be completely potty trained yet but he should be started by now.
Again... MITB knows more than the child's parents?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies View Post
Human beings have never sat in their own feces until recently. Don't even bother with extremes like the Inuit or other People's who live in areas where they cannot be naked.
EC is the most natural and GD way to teach our children. It is also the healthiest and most sanitary.

I would be more worried about teh other 3 yr olds who are gonna make fun of the child who reeks. I have done daycare and hae seen how the other kids are much more likely to tell the other kid to "get away from me! You stink!"
again the whole thing uses inflamatory language. Perhaps not purposefully, but that's the way it comes across.

Now. Show me where any of the mom's on here are saying EC-ers are being abusive or lazy?
post #157 of 201
Quote:
ECers come onto the thread and talk about how "weird" that is and "uncomfortable" that 'makes' them and spout off all the benefits of ECing. Well that's really great and all, but how does that help these mothers?...
but the point is that THIS thread was not about the mother of an older PLer asking for help, it was a thread by an ECer asking for help to understand an older PLing child. This thread was NOT to help mothers of older PLers, it was to help an ECer. And I don't believe anyone spouted a single benefit of ECing, they just said what ECing is and that those who practice it generally do not "get" older children still being in diapers.

And Newmommy, you said
Quote:
Well as the Mother of 3 year old who shows ZERO intereset in PL, those responses shamed and embarrassed me. I never thought I would see those flaming responses on a Natural Parenting website. In the instance of PL, you would think the AP philosphy would be child-led...why is PL an exception???
What flaming responses are you talking about?? Because I saw no flaming of child-led PLing in this thread. I saw mothers explaining what EC was and the mommas who did PLing getting upset and flaming the ECers for posting their beliefs.

I am NOT being snarky, I really did not see a single pro-ec post that was judgmental or flaming of non ECers and I saw a ton of posts by mommas being defensive of their choices and calling the ECers judgemental. I don't get it.

I stay far away from PLing threads because I have nothing to offer. Yes, if you do EC, you don't need to PL, and I think that information is pointless to say to a mom who's doing PLing with an older child. Perhaps there have been a lot of ECers posting that sort of thing on those threads and all of you are just reacting to those posts and taking out your feelings about it in this thread, but that is not what this thread is.

Yes, I think EC is the best way, and I think it's easier than child-led potty learning. Late PLing looks a lot harder and seems very backwards to me but I don't judge those doing it. I do all I can in my life to educate people about EC so that they can have some options to avoid having to ever potty train their kids, becuase I think it's a more effective way to deal with these bodily functions. But just because you didn't learn of it or thought it was a load of crap (no pun intended ) or just didn't think it was right for you, that makes no difference to me and I'm not going to change your mind or TRY to make you feel bad about it. If you do feel bad about it when you hear that there might have been another way, that is NOT my fault.

I thing this bears repeating (all over these forums, actually) Nobody can make us feel guilt or shame for those things that we are not already feeling guilty or shameful about. If you made the right choice for you, then you will be proud of that and you will not feel ashamed when someone mentions an alternative. The person making the other choice and talking about how great that choice is for them is NOT making you feel guilt over not making the same choice, that is YOUR guilt and shame.

I can tell you wholeheartedly that I have not met a single ECer who would purposefully try to shame someone for not choosing to EC (and I have been in the ECing community for over 6 years and know THOUSANDS of ECers). We might be perplexed or not understand why you would not choose something that we think is simply amazing, but we would never try to make you feel bad about a choice you made. I can assure you that the ECing community is one of the most inclusive you will find. We try very hard to help ALL parents with Potty Learning, even those who did not EC, even though it is usually completely outside of our range of experience.

To be told constantly that we are judgemental and attacking when we are only trying to educate and defend ourselves from the constant attacks of those who think we are trying to push our children to grow up too early, rob our children of their babyhoods, force our children to use muscles that do not exist, etc, is insulting and hurtful especially on a board that is about supporting fellow mothers.
post #158 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubelin View Post
Wow, I am shocked at the judgment and hatred being heaped apon those who have chosen to do something against our Western cultural norms by introducing the potty to their infants.

I read this entire thread, and not once did I see an ECer judge a diapering or late-PLing momma. HOWEVER, I have seen about 5 pages of hatred and ridicule being thrown apon mommas who have only stated that they are uncomfortable with older children in diapers. NOT one of those comments was a personal attack, and most cited historical/anthropological data to explain their discomfort. Natashacat stated several times that it was UNFAMILLIAR to her and that she wanted to approach the situation with full knowlege of what was common in this society.

Why is it that when an ECer, especially one who has NEVER known what it is to potty train a child (that right, I have 2 children who use the potty and they have never been "potty trained"), says that they EC and don't understand older children in diapers, they accused of judgement on these boards merely by stating that they don't understand something??

the fact is that an ECed child does not need to be potty trained in the way that so many of you understand that phrase. There are almost NO incidents of withholding, no incidents of requesting a diaper to urinate or defecate because children who are ECed do not consider clothing the place to do these things (and yes, there are results from a scientific study on Western EC pending). ECers are NOT doing early Potty Learning, we are doing something that is completely different.

Please stop judging us for making that choice. Please stop assumming that our choice, and our feelings about older children in diapers, have ANYTHING to do with your choices to do otherwise.

I didn't hear of EC until my son was 2 months old. He was in disposable diapers for the entirety of that time and, had we not learned about EC, we would have followed his cues for potty learning. But, we did learn of EC and we learned that he WAS already cuing us to use the potty, so we followed those cues.

I KNOW that most American families do not know that their babies are cueing them to use the potty, and that many of them don't even believe that an infant has any idea that they have to use the potty. Because a baby who has used a diaper from birth does not have the same sensations or muscle control as a baby who has NOT used a diaper from birth. Potty Learning is about teaching a child to feel the sensations of needing to go and then going in the appropriate place. An ECed child experiences those sensations from the beginning so they never have to re-learn them. An ECed baby is NOT the same as an early potty learning toddler. That is why there are support groups for Late-Starting ECers, because they are NOT the same thing.

Those facts are not judgement about the baby who has been diapered from birth, nor is it judgement about the parents of that baby. They are just facts about how EC works and how diapering works.

As foreign as it is for all of you who have diapered your children to understand how ECed babies could possibly know when they have to go pee/poo or feel it coming, or would prefer the potty, that is how hard it is for ECers to understand how a child could NOT know, could NOT feel it, or could prefer the diaper.

That is not judgement, it is sharing different points of view. The OP and those like her who posted to this thread were trying to get some understanding of your POV and were trying to share some knowlege about our POV. For us it is very similar to how militant breastfeeders feel, that if mothers only knew all the benefits and knew that their babies were designed for breastmilk, that they would nurse their babies.

The day I learned about EC a lightbulb switched on and it made perfect sense to me. I felt dumb for not thinking of it sooner, but I grew up in a culture that had NO experience with such a thing. I have spent 6 years being ridiculed, derided, told I was judging someone for choosing to have my children be diaper-free. I keep thinking thatin 2006 on a board such as this one, with mommas who support alternative lifestyles and natural, gentle parenting techniques, that I could finally start to share that I am an ECer without fear of flaming and it makes me sad and furious that it is still not so.

We were not attacking your point of view at all (please show me the lines that attacked child-led PLing), yet many of you attacked our POV when we merely stated it.

Now we'll all slink back to the EC forum where we can share our thoughts without 8 pages of flaming.
I have a splittting headache or I would answer your post in more detail... suffice it to say that I have seen MANY people in this thread, myself included, say that when we were posting about moms who force potty learning, we were specifically NOT talking about EC'ers. Having said that, though, it is kind of hard to take, when people are looking for support for late potty learners, for a bunch of posts saying, my child has not used a diaper since he was 4 months old... interesting, yes, & a valid way of raising a child, but not helpful in the context of the thread. I am not even talking about this thread, but many others. So the hatred & ridicule you have perceived goes both ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by littleteapot View Post
I didn't mean to imply everyone was embarrassed. I just frequently see threads of distressed moms asking for help and support, only to hear a constant stream of, "It's unnatural and weird, if you'd EC'd..." - it kind of brings them down, kwim?
My DD is potty learned now, but wasn't a month ago and while I wasn't embarrassed it certainly didn't help my demeanor any to hear people come onto support threads in order to boast.
Exactly what I was trying to say!

Quote:
Originally Posted by newmommy View Post
Well as the Mother of 3 year old who shows ZERO intereset in PL, those responses shamed and embarrassed me. I never thought I would see those flaming responses on a Natural Parenting website. In the instance of PL, you would think the AP philosphy would be child-led...why is PL an exception???

You can't pick and choose what's AP and what's Not when it's not your child at stake.
Yep. I am sorry you felt shamed & embarrassed.
post #159 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pynki View Post
I don't see anyone flaming EC-ers here. I see a whole lot of mothers who have children who PL after 3 being told they are lazy, or neglectful for getting their children out of their own waste before they are 3 years old. Hell before they are 2...
Loved your whole post; thanks. That is what I wanted to do but my head hurts so bad today : I could not figure out where to begin.
post #160 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pynki View Post
I don't see anyone flaming EC-ers here. I see a whole lot of mothers who have children who PL after 3 being told they are lazy, or neglectful for getting their children out of their own waste before they are 3 years old. Hell before they are 2. You need examples of what is setting diapering moms off? Ok. How about these?
Sorry, I didn't see you post before posting my above.

I'm sorry, but I didn't see all of those in the same light that you did. Yes, I cna see that some of them were attacking and I am sorry. And, at the same time I am sure that the comments that I considered to be attacking of ECers are probably things that a non ECer wouldn't see unless it was pointed out.

I should say that I don't consider MITB to be an ECer and never felt she was speaking for the ECing community, which is probably why I just ignored her comments for the most part. But she did make some valid points, whether it was said in a tacky way or not, it is a FACT that human beings, and all animals, are genetically programed to not wish to soil themselves. I am sorry if that fact is insulting to late PLers, but it is still the fact that, until very recent history, human beings did not use diapers.

Joesmom, in the context of THIS thread it was entirely appropriate for ECers to say what EC was in order to explain their mindset about older children in diapers. I still do not understand why feelings about posters in other PLing threads came into this discussion. Those should be addressed in those threads. I treat every thread on these forums to be a conversation unto itself and I didn't realize that not everyone does that. It did not make sense to me to see all this other stuff that did not seem to talk about the OP at all.

As I mentioned, I stay far away from PLing threads because it would be totally non-sequitor to mention my experience in a potty learning thread and because I have nothing to offer. But I also think it's not neccessary to attack someone who does do that, just let them know that their comment is not appropriate or helpful in that thread and move on with helping the OP.
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