3 yo still in diapers, help me undestand - Page 3

[wifty]

Originally Posted by witchbaby

my daughter is 33 months old and doesn't really show any sign giving up her diapers. she has clear potty readiness signs, but is rather unwilling to "do the deed" as it were. it bothers me (mainly because she has FOUL poos), but i don't want her to fear her bodily functions.
what appears to be happening with k: she is stubborn. since she was in the WOMB, everything has had to be her way, HER idea before it's worth doing. i imagine, one day, after we all give up asking her about the potty and talking about it, she'll do it, no fuss, no muss, because, only then, will it be entirely her idea.

This could have been written by me, down to the age of my DD!

DD actually started using the potty to pee one week in her 20th month. I made a big deal over it and was encouraging the way I was meant to be.....and she stopped.

Now she is 33 months and just yesterday pooped for the first time. She will only do things when she wants to and although I think we might be approaching this differently if we were in a society without diapers, I am not sure she would go in the toilet until she decides to.

I think this is an interesting conversation and I don't feel judged at all even though I have an almost 3 year old in diapers. It doesn't help that she is almost the size of a 5 year old!

Its simply hard to say how things would be different in a different society or time and its hard to say what is ultimately best for our children - pushing them because there is no choice or letting them decide and having the convenience of diapers.

with smiles

[~member~]

Originally Posted by Ellien C

You don't think? This hasn't been my experience. In my experience children do wake up one day and decide to: use the potty, walk, learn to eat with utensils, wean, etc.

If a child has never seen someone use utensils, do you honestly believe they would all of a sudden make a fork and use it?

What about those families who never had toilets? Think a child is gonna build one and use it? I think not.

Those are learned behaviors.

[RubyWild]

I don't understand it, either. I know it's not PC to say, but the vast majority of children all over the world are potty trained before the age of 2 and it's no big deal. No one is mean to them or rewards them with candy, they just potty train.

Sometimes I think it's our lifestyle. Sometimes I think it's the food we eat, but I don't know because it wasn't like this 20 years ago, and it wasn't like this 100 years ago. It's really perplexing to me why the average age for day potty trained is so much older these days.

[joesmom]

Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies

If a child has never seen someone use utensils, do you honestly believe they would all of a sudden make a fork and use it?

What about those families who never had toilets? Think a child is gonna build one and use it? I think not.

Those are learned behaviors.

Well, I can't say for sure that a child who had never seen someone use utensils would wake up one day & make a fork, but who knows? SOMEONE woke up one day & made a fork, right? They weren't here since the dawn of time. :

I don't understand your point about families who never had toilets- that almost certainly does not apply to anyone here. I did not lock Joe in a windowless room & expect he would one day break out looking for a porcelain container filled with water, into which he could evacuate his bowels & then flush it neatly away. He had a little potty, a seat to put on the big potty, a stepstool. He was (ALWAYS!! ) in the bathroom with me when I used the toilet. He knew what to do, & when to do it; he just was NOT comfortable with taking the next step. Just like he was not comfortable falling asleep without nursing until he was almost four years old. I can't see any of you, Mothering mamas, for Heaven's sake, being critical of me nursing my son until he weaned himself- so I guess it always confuses me when these threads pop up. I trust my son to know what he needs & when he needs it, in regard to nursing, sleep, food, education... why would I raise him like that but then force him to sit on the potty when he is genuinely NOT ready? : : Makes NO sense to me.

Originally Posted by RubyWild

...it wasn't like this 20 years ago, and it wasn't like this 100 years ago. It's really perplexing to me why the average age for day potty trained is so much older these days.

Not to me. Read the old parenting books. Kids were FORCED to sit on the potty, for loooong stretches of time. Ridiculed & beaten if they soiled their underwear. Mothers put their children on the potty at regular intervals. IMO most of those kids weren't trained at all- their mothers were. I am not saying that there aren't kids who can learn to use the potty at a young age- I do believe that some two year olds are ready & willing... I do believe that if you are committed to EC, it can be a good thing... but every child is different. The range for learning to walk, to talk, to read, varies sooo much- so why should every kid learn to use the potty at a certain age? I am genuinely confused.

[savithny]

Not to me. Read the old parenting books. Kids were FORCED to sit on the potty, for loooong stretches of time. Ridiculed & beaten if they soiled their underwear. Mothers put their children on the potty at regular intervals. IMO most of those kids weren't trained at all- their mothers were. I am not saying that there aren't kids who can learn to use the potty at a young age- I do believe that some two year olds are ready & willing... I do believe that if you are committed to EC, it can be a good thing... but every child is different. The range for learning to walk, to talk, to read, varies sooo much- so why should every kid learn to use the potty at a certain age? I am genuinely confused.

Yep, much of pottying is cultural, EVEN in cultures that practice EC. Some of them use techniques that are not workable for many people in the US -- the Chinese practice of holding small children over the street gutters, for example. Other cultures with very early potty learning *have* no potties to learn in - learning where your wastes go is actually a matter of learning where they *don't* go -- ie, not on Mom, not in the sling, not in the bed.

Other systems sound to be more of a behavioral conditioning - when I hear about potty training that consists of training all the children to squat and pee when an adult snaps their fingers, that's what I think.

In the US and many other Western societies, as we moved away from the kind of environment in which these practices worked, we seem to have adopted the punishing, guilting, shaming, beating methods to try to force children to do what they no longer lived in an environment to accomplish easily.

The outcome of this was that the majority of kids trained young -- but a significant minority carried issues and problems around potty stuff into adulthood.

It's possible, within this society, to use EC methods; but not everyone can arrange their lives in this way -- and given the history behind early training in this country, some parents are philosophically opposed to doing so. This isn't abuse, this isn't wierd -- and unlike formula feeding or CIO -- I'm unaware that there is any research that shows that gentle later potty learning is in some way harmful in the long term?

[artgoddess]

Originally Posted by mother culture

I seem to have a different View of this subject. I have 3 boys and all were introduced to the potty from birth and I used cloth diapers. All of them were PL'ed at 23 mos but still wetting at night occasionaly. I think parents in our scociety teach their babies and toddlers to use their diapers as a potty and then wait for readyness and then begin changing behaivior by talking about potty and visiting the potty. I think this is the problem. I personally am uneasy when I see a 3 year old in a diaper. They should at least be able to pee in the potty or outside by this age and out of diapers. Underwear are not much harder to change if poop happens adn it sends the child a clear lesson. I would talk to the parents and say can you please bring a stack of underwear with the little boy because he may surprise them.

What lesson is it that you think a parent needs to send to a three year old?



I agree with the idea of asking the mother for underwear. Because then if it were my son in the care of a person who was not comfortable with my son being normal 3 year old I would want to know about it. Asking for the underwear will give the mother a heads up she should look for childcare elsewhere that is a better fit to her parenting ideals.

[mummy marja]

my daughter is 33 months old and doesn't really show any sign giving up her diapers. she has clear potty readiness signs, but is rather unwilling to "do the deed" as it were. it bothers me (mainly because she has FOUL poos), but i don't want her to fear her bodily functions.
what appears to be happening with k: she is stubborn. since she was in the WOMB, everything has had to be her way, HER idea before it's worth doing. i imagine, one day, after we all give up asking her about the potty and talking about it, she'll do it, no fuss, no muss, because, only then, will it be entirely her idea.

This was us too! My Dd (whose name is also Fiona, Wifty!) just turned 4 and potty learned about 3 weeks after her birthday. It was fast, and it was all about what she wanted to do, nothing I did. We had her diaper free during the day for 4 weeks straight, and even that didn't convince her to do it. She just did it when she was ready.

I know some have wondered if she is "behind" in some way--I think it's the opposite. She is such a bright and complicated creature, and because of that PLing was much more complex. I know I'll have a much easier time with my easy-going DS.

And to all of you judging ladies--I was just like you until I had my dd. 5 years ago there's no way I would have been ok with a 4 yr old in diapers. Experience changes everything.

[joesmom]

Originally Posted by artgoddess

I agree with the idea of asking the mother for underwear. Because then if it were my son in the care of a person who was not comfortable with my son being normal 3 year old I would want to know about it. Asking for the underwear will give the mother a heads up she should look for childcare elsewhere that is a better fit to her parenting ideals.

Glad I read this closely- I was thinking, you AGREE with asking the mom for underwear? I know I would not have been at all ok with someone else trying to potty train my son- he was adamant enough about it when I brought it up. To have had a caregiver try to override MY parenting would have been waaay over the line.

[RubyWild]

Originally Posted by joesmom

Read the old parenting books. Kids were FORCED to sit on the potty, for loooong stretches of time. Ridiculed & beaten if they soiled their underwear. Mothers put their children on the potty at regular intervals. IMO most of those kids weren't trained at all- their mothers were. I am not saying that there aren't kids who can learn to use the potty at a young age- I do believe that some two year olds are ready & willing... I do believe that if you are committed to EC, it can be a good thing... but every child is different. The range for learning to walk, to talk, to read, varies sooo much- so why should every kid learn to use the potty at a certain age? I am genuinely confused.

Children all over the world are potty trained long before the age of 2, and they are NOT beaten, coerced, ridiculed into doing it. The vast majority of children in other countries --now, and in the past--are NOT treated in the way you refer and are potty trained. So, yes, I am perplexed as to why this is happening now in our culture.

You can find parenting books that are abusive, but that's not how my mother was potty trained. That's not how my grandmother was potty trained. My great grandmother helped her little brother learn to potty train when he was 14 months old. These are all anecdotes, but the real story comes from all the children from all the other cultures now and in the past who most definitely do not abuse their children into it. I would imagine, in fact, that abused children could have even more potty issues than others, but I don't know that other than a guess.

[stayinghome]

My girls were all well into their threes- two of them pushing four, by the time they were using the toilet. What's the big deal? They'll do it when they are ready.

[Finch]

Originally Posted by artgoddess

What lesson is it that you think a parent needs to send to a three year old?

I agree with the idea of asking the mother for underwear. Because then if it were my son in the care of a person who was not comfortable with my son being normal 3 year old I would want to know about it. Asking for the underwear will give the mother a heads up she should look for childcare elsewhere that is a better fit to her parenting ideals.

: : :

Yanno, my kid is going to be 3 in January. He isn't potty trained. We bought a potty tonight. He may or may not go for it. If he doesn't, he'll be one of "those" children in diapers at age 3. Good thing for me that I'M at peace with it, but I gotta say it really torks me off how many here think it's such horrible parenting to have a 3 year old in diapers.

Please. Come to my house and potty train my autistic, nonverbal son. I double dog dare you.



And before I get a slew of "oh your ds is special needs that's different" posts, I want to point out that in a lot of ways, it's NOT different. My ds will potty train when HE is ready. Forcing a child before they're ready, typically developing OR special needs, just sets them up for all kinds of problems, both physiological and psychological.

There's a line from a song I like that says, "and sammy will do what sammy will do when sammy is ready to do it...and trevor will do what trevor will do when trevor is ready to do it....and lucy will do what lucy will do when lucy is ready to do it...and they'll do it...in their own time"

My thoughts exactly.

[Ellien C]

Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies

If a child has never seen someone use utensils, do you honestly believe they would all of a sudden make a fork and use it?

What about those families who never had toilets? Think a child is gonna build one and use it? I think not.

Those are learned behaviors.

OK - I'm confused about what's going on. What I thought I heard you "saying" was that child had to be deliberately taught to potty-train because they simply won't learn it on their own, without being specifically taught, possibly by a certain age. I thought that's what you meant when you said they won't wake up one day and start using the toilet.

And what I was trying to say was that I don't think you need to "teach" a child to use the toilet anymore than you need to teach them to walk, talk or yes, use utensils. In my experience children, little sponges that they are, pick up on these things spontaneously when they are ready. Sure you can help by providing underwear, things to pull-up on and giving them utensils. But ultimately they do learn them on their own.

But now I'm not sure what you meant by "No child is going to wake up one day and decide to use the toilet." Perhaps we are misunderstanding you.

[Cardinal]

I have a friend who has two sons that aren't potty trained. One is 4 and the other is 6. They are mildly autistic. She said that because they are that old (and not potty trained) nobody will EVER sit for them. She said she is willing to pay $100 for one night out with her husband. But nobody will do it because the kids are older and nobody wants to change the diapers.


PS -- Yes, I offered to watch her kids.

[joesmom]

Originally Posted by Cardinal

I have a friend who has two sons that aren't potty trained. One is 4 and the other is 6. They are mildly autistic. She said that because they are that old (and not potty trained) nobody will EVER sit for them. She said she is willing to pay $100 for one night out with her husband. But nobody will do it because the kids are older and nobody wants to change the diapers.


PS -- Yes, I offered to watch her kids.

Wait till those kids are nine, if they still aren't potty trained. I have a friend in the same boat, with an autistic daughter who is also developmentally delayed- she is nine & only now starting to make any tiny miniscule steps that she MAY one day far in the future learn to use the potty. Her mom has severe asthma & right now a broken spine (don't ask!) My point is, she has had to change her daughter, in severe asthmatic distress, extreme pain from the broken spine, with a house full of people there to "help" her. I KNOW that not everyone would think it fun to change a nine year old, but when her mom is in such pain... it just makes me mad.

That is waaay off topic. Tell your friend, if we were nearby, I would definitely watch her kids- for far less than $100 a night!!

[Cardinal]

Originally Posted by joesmom

Wait till those kids are nine, if they still aren't potty trained. I have a friend in the same boat, with an autistic daughter who is also developmentally delayed- she is nine & only now starting to make any tiny miniscule steps that she MAY one day far in the future learn to use the potty. Her mom has severe asthma & right now a broken spine (don't ask!) My point is, she has had to change her daughter, in severe asthmatic distress, extreme pain from the broken spine, with a house full of people there to "help" her. I KNOW that not everyone would think it fun to change a nine year old, but when her mom is in such pain... it just makes me mad.

That is waaay off topic. Tell your friend, if we were nearby, I would definitely watch her kids- for far less than $100 a night!!

I know I strayed off topic. I guess I just read all the posts on this thread and got sad to see the judgment that has taken place so far. Why should anyone feel uncomfortable simply because a child cannot use a toilet? My DS is 16 months so we're not in toilet training land just yet. However, already people ask if we're using the Big Boy Potty yet and if we tee tee in the potty. It makes me : . I am so sorry that this poor little girl is having a tough time and that her mom is also experiencing angst and pain. I wish I could help them.

[joesmom]

Thanks Cardinal! She is awesome, actually. Her HUGS are so worth a little bit (ok, a lot!) of poop!

I was the one who went off topic, not you.

[Ellien C]

Originally Posted by joesmom

Wait till those kids are nine, if they still aren't potty trained. I have a friend in the same boat, with an autistic daughter who is also developmentally delayed- she is nine & only now starting to make any tiny miniscule steps that she MAY one day far in the future learn to use the potty. Her mom has severe asthma & right now a broken spine (don't ask!) My point is, she has had to change her daughter, in severe asthmatic distress, extreme pain from the broken spine, with a house full of people there to "help" her. I KNOW that not everyone would think it fun to change a nine year old, but when her mom is in such pain... it just makes me mad.

That is waaay off topic. Tell your friend, if we were nearby, I would definitely watch her kids- for far less than $100 a night!!

Can she get some kind of hospice care? Maybe she could contact an LPN agency - who would likely charge less than $100 a night for skilled LPN care.
I'm thinking she could get a nurse to come out to her house for an evening. The nurse would totally enjoy babysitting a 9 yo (as opposed to what they ususally do) and the idea of dipes wouldn't freak her out. I would start checking with some agencies.

A friend of mine has a special needs kid (who had 12 hours of skilled nursing care in their house a day) and they were "allowed" a free Saturday once a month from medicaid or something. I was pleased to see that they were able to get out once in a while.

[pigpokey]

Originally Posted by artgoddess

What lesson is it that you think a parent needs to send to a three year old?

I think the lesson she was suggesting is the lesson that pooping yourself is inappropriate. Not a lesson we all teach. I do.

All of you who are critical of having expectations of one's children that they will start using the potty when they are able, examine if you don't have similar etiquette expectations for your child. E.g., you don't eat yogurt with your hands when you're old enough to use a spoon, you take off your muddy shoes before you track through the house. I'm not sure how different it is to decide that you want to channel your child to eliminate in potties or toilets.

We all pick our battles. I don't, for example, worry about water tracked out of the bathtub. Saves me energy not worrying about that. I did PL early. Not nighttime ... I wait for that to come on its own. Not naptime ... I wait for that to come on its own. But my kids PL'd earlier than any of their friends I can think of. Why? Took away the diapers, that's why. Bare bottom'd 'em. They weren't punished or ridiculed. They did have to help wipe up accidents. It's their eliminations, not mine. Pottying is a dignifying activity, not a degrading one. They were enabled.

So my son's diapers went away in June. He's now 19 months, and he probably has one accident a month in the house, and it's a little slower than I'd expect out of the house because his other significant people are less committed and let him use a pullup as a diaper out of the house. With me? He's good out of the house. He trusts I will get him to a potty when he asks for one.

I was in diapers as a three year old. My mom picked other battles. She just didn't want that one. To each her own.

I found that by doing it young, we had no battles. Diapers gone. If they're young enough, they don't look back so much.

[Cardinal]

Originally Posted by joesmom

Thanks Cardinal! She is awesome, actually. Her HUGS are so worth a little bit (ok, a lot!) of poop!

I was the one who went off topic, not you.

I PM'd you

[Finch]

self delete. just not worth it.