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please explain - Page 2

post #21 of 40

This bothers me...

Israel,

What you must first and foremost realize is that we did not choose to be lesbians. We are who we are because that is what we were born to be. Children are not in anyway associated with only heterosexuality. That need to be a parent and to raise a child is inherent in some of our blood.

If you are trying to understand your sister, LISTEN to her. No one is saying that you have to agree, but you need to try and understand. What you will lose in the end is your sister and your niece or nephew. And that would be a tragedy. My family is also very conservative and close-minded. With them it has come down to they will NEVER meet my daughter, they will only get to see her in pictures.

Although, there are some families that had medical help in creating a family. There are those of us who have adopted and other who have had no medical intervention. In no way are any of these children "unnaturally" created. The children of Lesbian and Gay are some of the MOST WANTED children.


Being conservative does not mean that you need to have blinders on to the world. It doesn't mean that you need to be insensitive to the humans around you. Be open to the world, learn, and make informed choices on what you believe.

Also, a piece of advice. When you are looking for answers on a board for a specific group, you would do well not to insult them. You would get a better response.

Just some food for thought....
post #22 of 40
Thanks to the mamas here who have reached deep to respond thoughtfully and respectfully on this thread...
post #23 of 40
Hmmm...there are so many things that I want to say.

I am bi - but in a committed relationship with a man - that was just how it turned out. I want children. I am also in the process of trying to conceive my first - for the last year. I am starting the long an arduous process of trying to figure out why I am not conceiving. This has been completely heartbreaking as every month af shows up. If I had ended up with a woman, I would still want a child. I would still be going through this process. Nothing would have changed except the gender of my partner.

I guess the idea that just because you can't conceive naturally that there is something anti-healthy about how you proceed really irks me. Or that to subscribe to a natural parenting philosophy you must be heterosexual, and conceive only through having intercourse. Fact is, natural parenting is really on the fringes of what society considers normal. And most of the folks who practice it are also on the fringes of what society considers normal. Not saying all, we have a whole lot of fairly conservative, mainstream folks here. But the point is that everyone on this board loves their children, or children to be, and that really is the most important ingredient ot having them. I guarantee when I finally get pregnant and have a baby - the fact that the Clomid made me a little nuts is going to be the last thing on my mind.

It isn't about how you conceive, or who you choose to raise a family with, or IF you choose to raise a family with anyone at all. It is about wanting a child and wanting to love a child.
post #24 of 40
Thank you, Cynthia, for setting some ground rules.

That being said, I will go ahead and post my thoughts.

I am a single mother by choice, and a lesbian, due in July with my much anticipated first child, conceived via donor insemination. I could not be more excited and utterly delighted!

I can see you are operating from some assumptions that I would say, based on my personal experience, are false assumptions. I know many people who operate from your world view (as I perceive it) and get these questions occassionally, so I'd be honored if you'd listen to my side of the story.

The first false assumption in your post, based on my experience and that of my friends/acquaintences, is that everyone is heterosexual by biology and choice. That is not true. There is a wide variety of orientations that fall along a continuum, both in human nature and the animal kingdom. Same sex orientation and affectual connection are a natural part of the continuum, though an admittedly small percentage. The percentages range between 1 and 10% of the population, depending on which study you look at. But almost all studies/scientists/psychologists (and queer people, lol) etc agree that there DOES exist a natural population of same sex oriented people, both male and female. This is my belief.

The second false assumption in your post, is that there is a "gay lifestyle", as if we all lived and acted the same both sexually and just in life in general. Unlike religious groups, or races, or tribes or socio-economic groups etc, which share either a racial make up or common belief system or social status, the ONLY thing gay & lesbian folks have in common is their orientation (the fact that we fall in love with people of the same gender). That's IT. We have no common religion, no common race, no common socio-economic group, no common cultural shared group beliefs. There is such a huge variety! By saying "your gay lifestyle" - it's just limiting and assumes we all party and screw around and are only interrested in having sex with whomever we can as often as we can. That's incredibly insulting and, well, just plain ignorant of the complexities of real life, and reduces me to a characture. There is no gay lifestyle. I have a real life. I am a real person. I am not reducible to a stereotype. I know why there IS a stereotype - ie gay men are party boys and lesbians are macho dykes who wear lots of plaid shirts - is because 1) some gay men ARE party boys and some lesbians do wear plaid, lol and 2) reducing real people to stereotypes makes others feel safe.

The third false assumption in your post is that I CHOOSE not to be in a heterosexual relationship with a man. Even if I DID get together with a man, it still would never be a hetero relationship, because my nature is not hetero! I am biologically female and biologically lesbian. That is the way my brain is wired. I am not interrested in men. I find nothing attractive about them, though I love many of them as friends and family members. I AM attracted to women, the same way you are attracted to the opposite sex. I find my emotional fulfillment in women who are wired biologically just like me (and not all of them, to be sure, lol, I'm picky). I do not choose not to be hetero. I AM not. I choose to be who I really am. I choose to live an honest life, not living a lie pretending to be something I'm not.

As to the "fruit of a heterosexual relationship" - hmmm. What an odd way to put it. I believe your assumption here is that only a man and woman, married and committed to one another, are capable and elected to raise biological children, and that families should be limited to only those families that "qualify" under your very limited definition of a nuclear family. In my point of view, a family is a much broader term. It encompasses extended family, "chosen" family , god-parents, guardians, step-families, multi-generational families, adoptive families, etc. My term for family encompasses much more than ONLY the nuclear family. Some children are lucky that they have nice nuclear families with a mom, dad and kids. That does not mean children who are being raised in other family systems are losing out! Just because your biological "private parts" fit together easily does not mean you are a good parent or potential parent.

Parenting means much more than the ability to have sex and produce a biological offspring! In gay & lesbian families, there are no "oops" babies (except in gay-straight couples where one "comes out" after being married & a parent). Every child is a much wanted and planned for child. No one "accidently" becomes a parent. For lesbians, the path to parenthood is biologically easier, since it usually only involves a source of sperm. For gay men, the path is more difficult and always involves outside sources - like an adoption agency, social workers, surrogate agencies & counselors, foster-care social workers etc. With all the "hoops" gay men have to jump through to have kids, you can bet that 1) only the serious dads will follow through and 2) those kids are very, very wanted & planned for and well taken care of. Just because a man & woman have the capability to have sex and produce children does not mean in any way that those people are going to be good parents. Likewise, just because two men or two women do not have "complimentary" private parts does not disqualify them from being good parents. A good parent is full of love, compassion and knowledge, regardless of gender or sexual orientation.

Regarding "parenting being an unnatural act" for a gay or lesbian person. Why does who you fall in love with matter in parenting? A parent is a parent, not a partner or spouse. The roles are completely different. Why would nurturing and caring for a child be affected by your orientation at all? I can see the concern/assumption is that queer people, usually implied to be gay men, are pedophiles. Sorry, but most pedophiles are straight married men who molest their own children. Statistically, the most dangerous person to a child is his/her own biological father. Parenting is a very natural act for those with the temperment, regardless of orientation or gender. I know wonderful gay & lesbian parents and absolutely crappy straight parents. A more useful way of determining if a parent is a good one is HOW they are with kids, rather than WHO they are and who they fall in love with. A natural act is to nurture if you are a nurturing person, regardless of orientation. A natural parent (noun), one with the personality to undertake such a mission, will naturally want to parent (verb), regardless of their orientation.

Also, regarding "natural" parenting - I'm assuming YOU assume "natural" conception to be defined as intercourse only, and all other variations (donor insemination, IVF etc) are "unnatural" because they are not intercourse. Well, it all basically comes down to an egg and a sperm in the end, doesn't it? Regardless of HOW what get's where. Doesn't get much more natural than that. I am personally exceedingly grateful to my donor for helping me to conceive my child!

I hope this helps you understand a different world veiw, a different paradigm.
post #25 of 40
Beautifully said.
post #26 of 40
Ah, I didn't see that Israel has a lesbian sister who wants kids.

Now the questions make a bit more sense and have a context!


Israel, your sister is (I'm assuming) just a person with a loving heart who wants to nurture and parent a child, same as any person who desires that path in life.

My advice would be to focus on her heart, not her orientation.

It's great having nephews and neices Best wishes to you and to your sister as you travel this journey.

post #27 of 40
Well said Madison.
post #28 of 40
http://www.pflag.org/education/parenting.html
PFLAG (Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays.) This is the section on Gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender parenting.

http://www.pflag.org/support/family.html
Support for family members of people who are gay. Includes books and links to local resources. Many, many people struggle with a number of issues like yours.

http://www.pflag.org/education/publications.html
Their publication, particularly look at Faith in Our Families: Parents, Families & Friends Talk About Religion & Homosexuality.


All I can add is that I never thought about the desire to parent being linked to someone's sexuality...there are very sexual straight people with no desire or ability to parent, celibate people who parent -- I just don't see that they are related. Any trip to Walmart or daytime television talk show shows me that ability to reproduce, and ability to parent, are not linked.
post #29 of 40
I am not entirely sure i like Israels tone in the OP.

I am not gay, and am happily married to a great guy, and have no gay siblings or cousins. my mom does have two dear friends who are lesbians, and have recently adopted a precious boy. the gay couples that i have known love each other and are committed to each other in the same way my husband and i are. and i am a very conservative person, but i never doubt their feelings for a minute! of course, like all couples in love, it makes sense to me that they would want to have a baby! and the gay couple my mom is friends with.....they are the best "mommies" a child could ever want. they so love their child, and adore him, just like i do my own.
post #30 of 40
I don't understand why Israel connects an individual's role as a parent with that person's sexual/social preferences... :

Aren't they 2 virtually unrelated things? Like asking why 2 people with blond hair would want children while we all know that most people have black hair...

Of course, interventionless child-producing intercourse is heterosexual, but I don't see what that has to do with it... By implying that only a child borne from such interventionless heterosexual intercourse is "valid," you basically suggests that adoption is wrong, too. Or stepparenthood...

I understand that it can be hard to be "confronted" with a sister who just came out. But Israel, remember that it's probably much harder for her than for you, esp if you were raised with the same biases. She probably wants a child for the same reason most parents do: because she has a tremendous amount of love to give. I hope you'll be able to open up to her.
post #31 of 40
Sweetbaby3, I don't think that anyone liked the tone of Israel's posts. He is a man dealing with his prejudice, and he is upset. But if he is willing to listen, and open his mind, many of us are willing to educate him. I am waiting for him to come back.
post #32 of 40
So many great responses here! Madison!
post #33 of 40
sweetbaby3-i vote you for Conservative Person of the Year!!!!! Thanks for the support, mama!
post #34 of 40
oh maddy, you are my shero!!
what a wise and beautifully written post.
post #35 of 40
Madison,
Beautiful,beautiful post...........
Granolamom
post #36 of 40
Hmm, Israel seems to have left the conversation. Perhaps he and his sister have reconciled.

to you all for your well-reasoned and helpful responses.

I tell dc daily how happy her amma and I are that she came to live with us. That overflowing joy is, of course, the reason so many of us decided to answer the call to be parents.
post #37 of 40
Happened upon this post a bit late, but just wanted to add my brother-in-law and his partner to the list of devoted parents. They adopted a baby boy last winter - a 'crack baby', bio father unknown, and developmentally delayed. Under the care of these two incredibly loving and patient men, baby Jacob has made great strides and will undoubtedly continue to thrive and even surpass his potential. Where would Jacob be today without them? There are so many children who aren't so fortunate. What a perfect opportunity to create families: childless gay couples adopting children in need of loving parents. As a mother myself, I urge everyone to support to gay parents and welcome them into your community.
post #38 of 40
So many things could be send in response to this post, be let me clarify for you that queer parenting does not require "extreme technological interventions". Many queer parents, like 'parents' in general, had no interventions - they adopt, they have heterosex, they become step-parents, etc.

You are assuming a great deal, and doing so in a very offensive way. :
post #39 of 40
Oh my this post is soooooo old! I didnt realize it till I thought to myself that I'd read it somewhere before.

Why ressurect?
post #40 of 40
OPPS!! I didn't realize how old it was and I only saw the first few posts - not all of the thoughtful responses that I am seeing now! OPPS again!

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