Flu vaccination?? - Page 3

[LongIsland]

Originally Posted by BrklynMama

OK, well, let's post the numbers so that people can decide for themselves if it's fair to call the thim-free supply "large." There are 8-9 million completely thimerosal-free Fluzone doses, which is enough to cover all 6-23 month old babies.

Actually, that number is now just six (6) million.

Originally Posted by BrklynMama

For ages four and up, there's Fluvirin, which is supposedly "thimerosal-free" but unlike Fluzone, does have trace amounts left over from the manufacturing process.

According to the very latest from the CDC (10/10/06), Fluvirin doses will distributed in multi-dose formulations: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaxprioritygroups.htm

Therefore, the influenza vaccine Chiron distributes this season will contain full strength thimerosal, not trace amounts. Last year, Chiron wasn't able to crank out TF formulations either because of their plant safety compliance issues.

Getting back to Fluzone - either way, there's only six (6) million thimerosal free doses of inactivated influenza vaccine for children ages 6 months to 5 years of age. Hardly what I would consider adequate . . . or ethical for that matter.

Of course, those children over the age of five could get FluMist, but based on the fact that FluMist has not yet been approved as a cold adapted vaccine (as opposed to frozen), most doctors will stock shots, which will of course contain thimerosal in it's full strength.

And let's not forget the millions of pregnant women who will be vaccinated this season.

[shmoo]

Originally Posted by LongIsland

Actually, that number is now just six (6) million.



According to the very latest from the CDC (10/10/06), Fluvirin doses will distributed in multi-dose formulations: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaxprioritygroups.htm

Therefore, the influenza vaccine Chiron distributes this season will contain full strength thimerosal, not trace amounts. Last year, Chiron wasn't able to crank out TF formulations either because of their plant safety compliance issues.

Getting back to Fluzone - either way, there's only six (6) million thimerosal free doses of inactivated influenza vaccine for children ages 6 months to 5 years of age. Hardly what I would consider adequate . . . or ethical for that matter.

Of course, those children over the age of five could get FluMist, but based on the fact that FluMist has not yet been approved as a cold adapted vaccine (as opposed to frozen), most doctors will stock shots, which will of course contain thimerosal in it's full strength.

And let's not forget the millions of pregnant women who will be vaccinated this season.

Well, LI if enough folks hear your call, perhaps 6 mil will be plenty! ;-)

I wish there was moe vaccine available for all children. My 2 year old will receive the flu vaccine even if it has thimerosal.

[mamakay]

shmoo, what do you make of:

Despite increased vaccine distribution and financial resources towards promotion, the incidence of influenza in Ontario has not decreased following the introduction of the UIIC.

[mamakay]

Or this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_DocSum

Due to the high incidence of influenza in children, general vaccination has been discussed. There are, however, reasons to believe that general vaccination of children will not solve the influenza problem because influenza vaccines induce type-specific immunity of short duration. Conclusion: Vaccination of several cohorts of children will be a tremendous commitment, probably with little hope of success in decreasing the morbidity and spread of influenza.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=16437500

RCTs, live vaccines showed an efficacy of 79% (95% confidence interval (CI) 48% to 92%) and an effectiveness of 33% (95% CI 28% to 38%) in children older than two years compared with placebo or no intervention. Inactivated vaccines had a lower efficacy of 59% (95% CI 41% to 71%) than live vaccines but similar effectiveness: 36% (95% CI 24% to 46%). In children under two, the efficacy of inactivated vaccine was similar to placebo

[illinoismommy]

We never get the flu shot. The flu shot doesn't even protect against gastrointestinal types of flu (vomiting, diarhea....) ... I called the nurse last year to ask about the flu shot and that's what she told me. All it protects against is a few strains of the fever and chills type flu that may or may not come to your area. So then what really is really the point?

[amnesiac]

That's because what people call "stomach flu" isn't actually the flu at all. Kids might have some GI symptoms but influenza is a respiratory infection.

What is influenza (flu)?
Influenza, commonly called "the flu," is caused by the influenza virus, which infects the respiratory tract (nose, throat, lungs). Unlike many other viral respiratory infections, such as the common cold, the flu causes severe illness and life-threatening complications in many people.

What are the symptoms of the flu?
Influenza is a respiratory illness. Symptoms of flu include fever, headache, extreme tiredness, dry cough, sore throat, runny or stuffy nose, and muscle aches. Children can have additional gastrointestinal symptoms, such as nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea, but these symptoms are uncommon in adults. Although the term "stomach flu" is sometimes used to describe vomiting, nausea, or diarrhea, these illnesses are caused by certain other viruses, bacteria, or possibly parasites, and are rarely related to influenza.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/disease.htm

What is viral gastroenteritis?

Gastroenteritis means inflammation of the stomach and small and large intestines. Viral gastroenteritis is an infection caused by a variety of viruses that results in vomiting or diarrhea. It is often called the "stomach flu," although it is not caused by the influenza viruses.

What causes viral gastroenteritis?

Many different viruses can cause gastroenteritis, including rotaviruses, noroviruses, adenoviruses,type 40 or 41, sapoviruses, and astroviruses. Viral gastroenteritis is not caused by bacteria (such as Salmonella or Escherichia coli) or parasites (such as Giardia), or by medications or other medical conditions, although the symptoms may be similar.

What are the symptoms of viral gastroenteritis?

The main symptoms of viral gastroenteritis are watery diarrhea and vomiting. The affected person may also have headache, fever, and abdominal cramps ("stomach ache"). In general, the symptoms begin 1 to 2 days following infection with a virus that causes gastroenteritis and may last for 1 to 10 days, depending on which virus causes the illness.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/revb/gastro/faq.htm

[Dar]

Just stepping in to remind everyone to be gentle and kind to each other. This is not the place to argue about which vaccines anyone should give or not give, but to provide support and information to people who have decided to vaccinate on a selective or delayed schedule.

Also, please remember that per the copyright guidelines, quotes from other articles or webpages are limited to 100 words or fewer. You can always paraphrase and provide a citation to the original page, if you want to include more information that 100 words permits.

Thanks,

Dar, moderator

[LongIsland]

Originally Posted by shmoo

Well, LI if enough folks hear your call, perhaps 6 mil will be plenty! ;-)

Not only may it be plenty, there will likely be a surplus of unused thimerosal free influenza vaccine. This is a statement from a Sanofi rep just a few months ago:

“While we have on several occasions sold out all of our preservative-containing (mercury) vaccine in the last several years, we have never sold out all of our preservative-free vaccine.”

[shmoo]

MK--

I don't recall seeing one of those studies, but it is interesting. Doesn't change my mind though.

At the end of the day, I can certainly appreciate someone looking at the risks/safety and the efficacy of the flu vaccine and saying "no thanks."

Having suffered from the flu (the real flu -- the doc did the nasal swab culture), I don't want any part of it, nor do I want it for my son. So we vaccinate, we wash our hands a lot, we eat healthy and we exercise.

If the flu were nothing more than a runny nose and a cough for a week, I might think differently.


I've probably read a dozen or so articles about the vaccines effectiveness. The first step is matching the strains and that involves a great deal of judgment and luck. When they get it right, it is a pretty darn good vaccine. When they get it wrong, not so much. But I tend to file that under no harm, no foul because neither my so nor I have ever had a vaccine reaction.

[mamakay]

What years have they guessed right in?
Was it more than 5 years ago the last time they guessed right?

[CrunchyKat]

I wouldn't do it.

[Dido]

Originally Posted by LongIsland

Actually, that number is now just six (6) million.

According to the very latest from the CDC (10/10/06), Fluvirin doses will distributed in multi-dose formulations: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaxprioritygroups.htm

Therefore, the influenza vaccine Chiron distributes this season will contain full strength thimerosal, not trace amounts. Last year, Chiron wasn't able to crank out TF formulations either because of their plant safety compliance issues.

Getting back to Fluzone - either way, there's only six (6) million thimerosal free doses of inactivated influenza vaccine for children ages 6 months to 5 years of age. Hardly what I would consider adequate . . . or ethical for that matter.

Of course, those children over the age of five could get FluMist, but based on the fact that FluMist has not yet been approved as a cold adapted vaccine (as opposed to frozen), most doctors will stock shots, which will of course contain thimerosal in it's full strength.

And let's not forget the millions of pregnant women who will be vaccinated this season.

LI, I went to your link. As of October 10, 2006, the CDC still states there will be 8-9 million doses of the thim-free Sanofi vax (Fluzone). Are you saying there's been a change that the CDC hasn't posted yet? Even if so, 6 million is still what I would consider a "large supply," so I stand by my OP. Your link also reaffirms that Novartis/Chiron's Fluvirin is available in a no-preservative dose (really meaning trace amounts in this case), which is also clear from the Fluvirin package insert. (http://www.fda.gov/cber/label/inflchi091405LB2.pdf) However, I do also see the chart at the bottom of your link stating that Fluvirin is being distributed multi-dose, so either the CDC is contradicting itself, or there's a way I wasn't aware of to distribute in the multi-dose form without full-strength preservative. Here's the excerpt from your link:

Updated Oct 10, 2006
How many doses of thimerosal-free influenza vaccine are expected to be available for the 2006-07 season?
At the current time, sanofi pasteur is projecting that 8 million to 9 million doses of thimerosal-free vaccine in pre-filled syringes or vials will be produced for the 2006-07 influenza season. The majority of this vaccine will be in 0.25 mL syringes (indicated for ages 6-35 months) with the remainder in 0.5 mL vials or syringes (indicated for ages 36 months and older). In addition, GSK’s influenza vaccine for adults 18 years of age and older is preservative-free vaccine and Novartis (formerly Chiron) has a preservative-free preparation for persons 4 years of age and older. The nasal influenza vaccine, FluMist, also is thimerosal-free.

Why am I being so anal about this? Because I've seen post after post on MDC dismissing the flu vax because "it all has mercury." First of all, it's good for folks to be aware that there are mercury-free doses out there, so that they can be requested. I understand you would prefer no one get vaxed, but especially as this is the selective forum, it's good to know that there is a way for parents to get the safest vax possible. Demand does drive supply to some extent, so the more parents demanding mercury-free vaxes, the better. Second, if we dismiss the flu vax solely due to mercury content, it damages our credibility, since there ARE mercury-free formulations available. When I was mulling whether to give my baby the flu vax, I said to myself that it would be easy to dismiss the vax entirely because of mercury, but since I knew my ped stocked Fluzone, I would make up my mind based on other concerns. Frankly, the limited safety data for babies, the effectiveness rates, and the mortality & hospitalization stats for flu were enough to convince me WITHOUT depending on the easy and flawed flu vax=mercury reasoning.

[LongIsland]

Originally Posted by BrklynMama

LI, I went to your link. As of October 10, 2006, the CDC still states there will be 8-9 million doses of the thim-free Sanofi vax (Fluzone).

Are you saying there's been a change that the CDC hasn't posted yet?

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=479702

[LongIsland]

Originally Posted by BrklynMama

Your link also reaffirms that Novartis/Chiron's Fluvirin is available in a no-preservative dose (really meaning trace amounts in this case), which is also clear from the Fluvirin package insert.

According to the CDC chart, Chiron will not be distributing a single dose, thimerosal free influenza vaccine. Unless they've miracously found a way to preserve multi doses without thimerosal.

[LongIsland]

Originally Posted by BrklynMama

Your link also reaffirms that Novartis/Chiron's Fluvirin is available in a no-preservative dose (really meaning trace amounts in this case), which is also clear from the Fluvirin package insert. (http://www.fda.gov/cber/label/inflchi091405LB2.pdf)

By the way, that link is the product insert from the 2005/06 influenza season.

Regardless of whether TF Fluvarin has been approved for use for the 2006/07 season (it has), the CDC chart does not indicate distribution of this formulation.

[LongIsland]

Originally Posted by BrklynMama

Second, if we dismiss the flu vax solely due to mercury content, it damages our credibility, since there ARE mercury-free formulations available.

If you visit the main forum, you will find that the influenza vaccine is not dismissed based solely on the use of thimerosal.

[Dido]

Originally Posted by LongIsland

By the way, that link is the product insert from the 2005/06 influenza season.

Regardless of whether TF Fluvarin has been approved for use for the 2006/07 season (it has), the CDC chart does not indicate distribution of this formulation.

Oops, you're right about the package insert! Here's the 2006-7 link:

http://www.novartis-vaccines.com/pro...luvirin_pi.pdf

So, as I already posted, there seems to be a contradiction in the CDC information. Any thoughts on why the discrepancy? In your link, they say in one place that Novartis is distributing a TF vax for ages 4 and above, but they say in the chart that it's multi-dose. Now, on the Novartis web page, they do list other TF flu vaxes, but they don't link to package inserts so I'm guessing they're not yet licensed for distribution:

http://www.novartis-vaccines.com/pro...nfluenza.shtml

[mamakay]

I'm still dismissing it because it just seems like a scam.
Regardless of whatever rationalization the CDC is using to justify recommending it to under two's, it was evaluated as being "as effective as placebo" in that age group in a comprehensive analysis of all the recent studies, and tops out at 33% effective in older groups.
The "cultured on chicken eggs that aren't screened for viruses" thing makes me nervous (weirdly, more so in the mercury free ones, since thimerosal would probably kill any lingering contamination from that process).
And finally, I would never dream of holding my son down for something painful like that without a really good reason...and I'm not seeing anything about the flu shot that even comes close to qualifying as a good reason.

Oh, and then there's the CDC's "seven step recipe for creating demand for flu vaccines" which includes stuff like manipulating the media, "framing the flu in terms like 'worst flu season recorded in recent years expected", and confusing people with talk of pandemic influenza and seasonal flu at the same time to encourage a "demand for the influenza vaccine".

I find all that incredibly offensive.

Oh, and the master plan of "Well since the flu vaccine hasn't worked at all in the elderly, let's make all the little kids get vaxed and then maybe it'll work in old people."
That's really terrible logic right there. Or just more evidence that the flu shot is a scam.

[Dido]

Thanks for the link to the other thread, LI. I'm not seeing the supposed reduction to 6 million doses reflected anywhere other than the Safe Minds press release, since everywhere else it still says 8-9 million. But, assuming Safe Minds has access to advance info, 6 million still seems like a large supply to me, which was my original point - that the thimerosal-free doses are out there. Since this is the first year the AAP has recommended flu vaxes for the 3-4 year old age group, it's unsurprising that the TF vax supply hasn't quite caught up.

Honestly, I'm really not sure what we're doing except arguing about what's a large supply or not. Obviously, there shouldn't be any thimerosal in any vaxes, and until that's recognized by the CDC, we have a problem. However, it seems to me that we're making progress, whether or not that progress is fast enough.

[LongIsland]

Originally Posted by BrklynMama

Thanks for the link to the other thread, LI. I'm not seeing the supposed reduction to 6 million doses reflected anywhere other than the Safe Minds press release, since everywhere else it still says 8-9 million.

The reduction to 6 million was made in a statement from a Sanofi representative.