"Vaccine Fearmongering Scrutinized" - Page 2

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Some parents never "get" it. On any level at all. It's the way they are conditions.

One vaccine damage case I did pro bono, and won, the parents had all the explanations as to what damaged their child, and seemingly understood everything both explained to them and provided in writing. They saw the process from start to finish and had copies of everything in chronological order.

The case took me four years to win.

They went on to vaccinate their next child, despite knowing the facts.

When that child had the identical reaction, they came to me and asked me to take on that case as well, pro bono.

I refused. Told them it should be a synch for them to do it themselves, by following the paper work of the previous case I had done.

They didn't apply for compensation. They told me it would take up too much of their time.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by dymanic

Let me ask this:

Can any parent be reasonably expected to meet the "obligation to research and fully understand that benefits, risks, and possible implications of every medical procedure reccomended for their child"

if

"there is so much misinformation and on both sides of the issue it's hard for anyone to pick it apart and decipher truth from fiction"

?

Some of them are computer illiterate. Some are illiterate illiterate. Some of them have to work. Is parenthood a privilege that comes only with having plenty of spare time and a library card (or an internet connection)?

Come Dymanic, that last sentence is strange. Parenthood is a privilege that follows on from becoming pregnant and giving birth. I didn't know that I could have kids just by having a library card or internet connection

Any parent who wishes to make an informed choice about vaccinations can, and many of us here have done just that. But having done our own research doesn't mean we will convince conditioned "others".

An informed decision is best made by the work of one's own shoe leather. If a person choses to "trust" an expert, they also have to be prepared to take the consequences of making a conformed choice. It might work out, but it might not. If you let someone else make your choices, its not right to complain about the results if they turn eggs into an unwanted omelette... metaphorically speaking...

You sometimes ask us questions, dymanic, but the reality is that like a true skeptic you don't believe most of what we say. And that's the way it should be. Because convictions are something that should come from within, and from your own research, not listening to someone else. I'm not interested in "convincing" you or anyone else, because a person should be able to say "I know what I'm doing, because I've researched it as fully as I know how, know what my priorities are, and what I believe is best for my family." It's no-one else's business at that point, least of all those who said yes without giving it more thought than waking up in the morning.

Let me ask you two questions.

Why is it that many/most parents will fully research a house, getting Lien reports etc, and going over it thoroughly... or a car, or shoes, or strollers, or a whole number of other issues, and yet, hardly ever research much the medical profession has to offer?

What is so different about the medical profession, that they deserve unquestioned "belief"?

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by dymanic

Let me ask this:

Can any parent be reasonably expected to meet the "obligation to research and fully understand that benefits, risks, and possible implications of every medical procedure reccomended for their child"

if

"there is so much misinformation and on both sides of the issue it's hard for anyone to pick it apart and decipher truth from fiction"

Yes...your a parent, it's your responsibility. (at least until the medical community stops lying)

[DreamsInDigital]

What is so different about the medical profession, that they deserve unquestioned "belief"?

You rule, MT.

[Tracy]

I just read this thread.

yuck.



btw MT..... it is all so logical isn't it? enough for a randiphile to get.

[dymanic]

Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara

Why is it that many/most parents will fully research a house, getting Lien reports etc, and going over it thoroughly... or a car, or shoes, or strollers, or a whole number of other issues, and yet, hardly ever research much the medical profession has to offer?

Excellent answer. I guess I'm hung on the word "obligated".

What is so different about the medical profession, that they deserve unquestioned "belief"?

Whether they deserve that or not, anyone providing professional advice (or presenting himself as an authoritative source of information) clearly incurs an "obligation" to put forth a certain effort.

I can see it being considered the responsibility of a parent to make the best effort possible, but does that include an obligation to be successful in sorting out the conflicting minutae? I guess I'm just currently getting all into this idea of learning how to give people a break for being wrong. The trick seems to be something about being able to challenge wrong ideas without going right for the throats of those who hold them.

[mykdsmomy]

Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara

Why is it that many/most parents will fully research a house, getting Lien reports etc, and going over it thoroughly... or a car, or shoes, or strollers, or a whole number of other issues, and yet, hardly ever research much the medical profession has to offer?

What is so different about the medical profession, that they deserve unquestioned "belief"?

This is so true and once again you convict me, MT (and i mean that in a good way)
I guess when you buy a house or a car, you are forewarned against the shady business practices of car salesmen and some realtors or mortgage brokers out to make a fast buck.....it's really impersonal...

When you take yourself or a member of your family to a "dr" (insert angelic/godly music here), you are putting all your faith in the one person who took an oath.....the one person who went to school for a bazillion years to earn his/her degree, the one person who will FIRST DO NO HARM....the one person that for centuries people have depended on for comfort/healing. Why would you even begin to question such a highly honored professional? Why would you, a layperson, begin to question the complexities of the medical world?
I think this is how most of us have been raised.....you dont question authority MOST ESPECIALLY a dr. who's only goal/purpose in life is to heal you of your ailment......after all, at the end of the visit, you dont hand your co pay directly to the dr., you hand it to the front office.....the dr is the guy in the norman rockwell picture who is handing the child a sucker.....yk?
Anyway...i'm rambling...but the bottom line is, people dont think to question dr.'s or their practices.....it didnt cross my mind til my son was born 3 months early and dh and I were forced to diagnose him with a stricture in his colon because after watching the dr's and nurses run countless tests on him half arsed, we saw first hand that there were many flaws/mistakes in the trail from the lab tech back to the dr.....we KNEW what was wrong ....but no one would listen to us......countless ER visits.......ds was vomiting bile and the ER nurse looked at him and said "wow, i've never seen green puke before" ....i couldnt believe that an er nurse had never seen bile before.....i lost all faith in dr's....but if it wasnt for that wake up call, I dont know when or if I'd ever question dr's practices.....it's just not how I was raised.... just my musings.....

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by dymanic

I can see it being considered the responsibility of a parent to make the best effort possible, but does that include an obligation to be successful in sorting out the conflicting minutae? I guess I'm just currently getting all into this idea of learning how to give people a break for being wrong. The trick seems to be something about being able to challenge wrong ideas without going right for the throats of those who hold them.

But whose ideas are the ones that are wrong?

Theirs, or yours?

You are assuming that the ideas you are challenging are wrong, which it may be that what is wrong is your assumption.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Well.... I cannot get over how many people also trust politicians. However, I digress.

Dymanic, what do you mean by obligation? The contracts of most medical people "obligates" them to achieve a very high vaccination rate. They aren't going to achieve that by telling people what they need to know to make an informed choice. Besides which, how much do they actually know? Or do they just parrot what is told to them from people they also blindly trust?

Furthermore, they don't always know the deal about a lot of things.... Here's an example

A friend of mine was being persuaded to take Rifampicin, and I stepped in and asked the specialist if he wanted to kill my friend or something. He started to bristle and said "What do you mean by that?". I pointed out that my friend had a liver disorder. He said "So?". I said "Rifampicin is contraindicated for my friend because it could kill him." He started to rant and rave and siad I was lying, and I said..."Look, just go and get the Red book and READ it for goodness sake!!!"

He did and came back all huffy and said... "Well, I suppose you can do without it..."

He wouldn't admit that he didn't KNOW that Rifampicin was contraindicated for liver disorders until the man pushed him on the issue. And he's supposed to be an expert. He could have killed my friend and didn't know it, and if my friend had died, what's the bet he would have blamed the supposed condition for which he was recommending a mallet of a drug?

In the end, my friend used nothing and got better... but.... had I not been there, what then?

Sometimes they think they know it by osmosis or something.

I've long since learned that its not a good idea to trust someone who trusts solely the letters after their name. Another problem being that you don't know whether the doc in front of you knows it or not.

And the only way you get to know what they don't know, is if you know it first. How many parents know enough to know that doctors can be so ignorant its not funny? Not many.

[dymanic]

Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara

You are assuming that the ideas you are challenging are wrong

Is there anyone here who claims to do otherwise? When you find out you're wrong about something, how long do you stay there?

Dymanic, what do you mean by obligation?

It was angelpie who introduced the term:

I think that it is every parent's obligation to research and fully understand that benefits, risks, and possible implications of every medical procedure reccomended for their child, including vaccination.

In this context, I'd say we're talking about a moral obligation.

And the only way you get to know what they don't know, is if you know it first. How many parents know enough to know that doctors can be so ignorant its not funny? Not many.

Precisely my point.

[djinneyah]

poor baby...

hope mom rethinks her decision for any future children...

(responding to the OP, not entering into the debate, thank you very much )

[Cynthia Mosher]

Your friendly neighborhood moderator, gilnikche, is out sick today.

I am returning this thread for discussion with a very clear warning - keep it respectful and stop the personal jabs. Any further such posting will get you removed from this forum.

That is all. Thread opened for further discussion.

[dallaschildren]

As a parent, you are 100% obligated to take care of your child in all aspects. I agree wholeheartedly with MT's assessment. She is dead on. Why is the medical profession trusted so implicitly? Many many reasons. And what still perplexes me is why so many leave their health and their very lives in their hands without question or research.
While rather simplistic, I believe some of the problems generated by the medical community as a whole begin in medical school. Medical students find that their education is put before patient care, they are asked to do things beyond their capabilities, and that they are involved in substandard care spurred on by the money hungry health insurance giants and their pharma friends. By the time they graduate, they are up to their necks in debt from loans and feel the pressure to succeed at all costs; most often at the expense of the patients. Trust that without question or research? Never again.

DC

[dymanic]

Originally Posted by dallaschildren

And what still perplexes me is why so many leave their health and their very lives in their hands without question or research.

Bought any fresh bagged spinach lately? Flown in an airplane? Driven over a bridge? Is it safe to drink the tapwater where you live? Have you ever taken your car to be serviced for steering, tires, or brakes? Have you researched all those things?

Every day, do you not place your life in the hands of people whom you will never meet, whose motives you can only guess at, and whose expertise was evaluated by other people you will never meet, and whose motives you can only guess at, etc?

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara

And the only way you get to know what they don't know, is if you know it first. How many parents know enough to know that doctors can be so ignorant its not funny? Not many.

This seems like an appropriate place to drop in this story:

Originally Posted by MsHelena
This is moderately off topic, but I figured no one would mind too much hearing another stupid doctor story.

About a year ago I had a hard lump in my breast about an inch in diameter. It worried me so much that I couldn't sleep, so I had it removed. It turned out that it was just a benign tumor.

A few weeks after the surgery, I went to the follow up visit with the surgeon. I told him that the nipple on the right breast (surgery breast) was very sore and downright painful to the touch. He looked at me like I had two heads, told me it had nothing to do with the surgery and instructed me to go see my gynecologist.

The nurse practitioner that I usually see was busy (and I was leaving the country), so I saw another doctor. He told me that it was stupid to have the tumor removed because women in their 20s never get breast cancer. (I know the chance was small, and in the same situation, I wouldn't do it again. Regardless . . . women in their 20s do get breast cancer.)

He then addressed my concern: "Your breasts aren't getting enough support, which is causing the pain. Go buy a Wonderbra."

Needless to say, I was unsatisfied. I researched the hell out of the issue and found an explanation that seemed likely. Then, I went to a specialist just to be sure everything was fine (the trip I was going on was a long one). She explained about the inflammation and the purpose of white blood cells and the lymph system (which is what I had discovered in my research), and said to avoid taking pain medication to allow the lymphocytes to do their job. I was satisfied.

Buy a Wonderbra, indeed . . .

[mykdsmomy]

Originally Posted by dymanic

Bought any fresh bagged spinach lately? Flown in an airplane? Driven over a bridge? Is it safe to drink the tapwater where you live? Have you ever taken your car to be serviced for steering, tires, or brakes? Have you researched all those things?

Every day, do you not place your life in the hands of people whom you will never meet, whose motives you can only guess at, and whose expertise was evaluated by other people you will never meet, and whose motives you can only guess at, etc?

These points you make really got me thinking.....I can appreciate what you're saying but I think there's things in life that you kind of *have* to just trust in or else you'd be living in a cave somewhere.....
Vaccinations are not one of those things that I will choose to blindly accept without really researching it and coming to a decision/conclusion on my own. I dont question the bridge I need to cross over because quite frankly the chance of it collapsing based on past experience and knowing others that have died in bridge collapses are so small that it's not worth my time to research and worry over it....however, there are children having vaccine reactions all the time....and people falling ill shortly after having their vaccine....so to me, that's something worth researching more for myself...