what about the argument...

[phishers3]

that the only reason that the incidents (sp?) of disease x, y ,z is low is because of the last few generations receiving vax? And if we cease vaxing then they (disease x, y ,z ) will return???

I had this thought pop into my head on day, and planned on looking into it, but then had someone else pose this to me when I was discussing this issue (which by the way I will not do again until I am sure on it yikes!)

KWIM?

If this issue has been discussed somewhere already, I do apologize for a repeat - I just haven't seen it yet in my days of lurking around

TIA for any input...

[Dar]

Moved to Vaccinations...

Dar

[Spy]

Originally Posted by phishers3

that the only reason that the incidents (sp?) of disease x, y ,z is low is because of the last few generations receiving vax? And if we cease vaxing then they (disease x, y ,z ) will return???

What about the other diseases a, b, c that have declined to nearly zero without any vaccination? Why did this happen?
And why even the x, y, z were declining rapidly long before the vaccination started and/or in the populations where the relevant vaccines were not used - at the same rate as wherever they were used?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

If you use search using disease AND decline you might pick up threads where this has been discussed in the past.

You also might want to check out these. They are accurate.

http://www.healthsentinel.com/graphs.php

[FrederickMama]

Yes....when you question peoples assumptions and present them with real facts ..... they really have a hard time defending their point of view. Which usually makes them come up with something else.

[Fyrestorm]

Here's some data I've collected with references. This might help:

Polio (in the case of Polio, alot of the reduction was due to redefining the disease the same year that the Sabin vax was introduced.
July 1955 (Before the defintion change)
Polio Cases - 273
Aseptic Meningitis Cases - 50
July 1961 (after Change) Polio Cases - 65
Aseptic Meningitis Cases - 161

Tetanus 1800's - 205 cases per 100, 000 wounds
Early 1900's 16 cases per 100, 000 wounds
Vaccine available in 1933 not widely used until 1955
1945 - .44 cases per 100, 00 wounds

Measles (only hospital presented cases were available since this was a non reportable disease)
1900 - 13.3 deaths per 100, 000 cases
1955 - .03 deaths per 100, 000 cases
1963 - vax introduced

Mumps No noteable increase or decrease in cases since vaccine introduction to mandated schedual in 1971 HOWEVER...major age shift to the dangerous teen years: from 1967 - 1971 92% of cases occured in persons under the age of 14, just 8% occured in persons over the age of 14. By 1987, 38% of cases were occuring in in the older age group.

Diptheria 1911 - 7.2 deaths per 10, 000
1935 - .9 deaths per 10, 000
Vaccine mandated in 1940
For Diptheria there was also a definition change - Prior to the change, "cutaneus" and "inhalation" cases of the disease were counted. After the change, only "inhalation cases were counted. As a result, official statistics showed and immediate 95% decline in cases the following year. The number of cases has remained low ever since.

Pertussis Between 1900 and 1935 there was a 79% reduction in disease deaths in the US. The first vax was introduced in the late 1940's

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/VIS/default.htm Other info from Vaccines are they really safe and effective by Neil Z. Miller

[phishers3]

great! I am just checking in before I hit the hay and will read all the posts tomorrow- but I appreciate all the input!

[greeniegreen]

: Just wanting to subscribe. I've been wondering about this a lot lately as well and though I knew that many of the diseases were on a decline before the vaccinations were introduced, I know that I need to bulk up on my knowledge around this.

I've also been concerned about a lot of things I've been reading lately about the responsibility to the herd type of mentality for the vaccines to work and that unvaccinated children will throw everything out of whack.

[cristina63303]

Educate me

How about the incidences of areas where these diseases "in decline" have shown their ugly heads again after an increase in the number of people who refuse to vax? I know it has happened here in Germany AND it has lead to people jumping right back on the vax bandwagon... dunno...

[Spy]

Originally Posted by cristina63303

How about the incidences of areas where these diseases "in decline" have shown their ugly heads again after an increase in the number of people who refuse to vax? I know it has happened here in Germany AND it has lead to people jumping right back on the vax bandwagon... dunno...

If you look carefully on those incidence/mortality graphs, you will see that decline doesn't happen in a straight line - never has, never will. Outbreaks of various scale occur in fully vaccinated populations every so often, the cycles depend on disease. Every single outbreak is used to market more vaccines - it's just the way the industry works . If an outbreak happens after a few years of exceptionally high coverage, it will either be silent or another booster will be suggested at some point. If it happens around the time when coverage could have been better, then, of course, it will be noted - even though the people who came down with the disease are NOT the same people who missed their shots.
Sometimes even the outbreaks are not necessary, with current mass media possibilities exactly the same incidence as in the past few years suddenly could be presented as a horrible disaster situation - conveniently just before another jab hits the recommended schedule .

[phishers3]

are there any resources that discuss, in areas where there were outbreaks, the number of sufferers that were vax'd and those that were unvax'd??????????????

[dooldad]

Some of the recent "outbreaks" have other conditions that led to a rise in disease, low vaccination can go along with these conditions, such as war and extreme poverty, obviously vaccination percentage is going to be low, but not necessarily the cause of the outbreak.

I believe MT wrote about it a little in JALP.

[phishers3]

okay please forgive my ignorance but what is:

MT

and

JALP?

thanks

[Mommy To Baby Roni]

Originally posted by greeniegreen
I've also been concerned about a lot of things I've been reading lately about the responsibility to the herd type of mentality for the vaccines to work and that unvaccinated children will throw everything out of whack.

Well, if the vaccine worked and you have antibodies to the disease, then those antibodies will fight of the disease, if you are exposed to it. The vax status of others doesn't matter. What's going on in their body has nothing to do with what's going on in yours. Either your vaccine "workes" or it doesn't.

The idea of herd immunity is really that there will be less people spreading the disease, the more are vaccinated. But think about it - that's based on the premise that the non-vaxed are disease-ridden and that if there are too many of them, they will "spread" that disease to the vaccinated. How can that happen if your vaccine works? How will that screw up your antibodies from functioning? It doesn't. Imo, you have no responsibility for anyone's health, but you and your own. It's one thing to have proper health "etiquette", by staying home when you are sick or covering your mouth when you cough, but it's another to be expected to endanger yourself or your child for the perceived well-being of others.

[dooldad]

MT=Momtezuma Tuatara, hard to miss her
JALP=Just a Little Prick, a great book she wrote

[phishers3]

Originally Posted by dooldad

MT=Momtezuma Tuatara, hard to miss her
JALP=Just a Little Prick, a great book she wrote

thanks!!!!!

[phishers3]

okay I'll add another... I see this all over the place and know what its referring to but cant figure out the actual words for the acronym... help!

vpd means what???

[Mommy To Baby Roni]

vpd = vaccine preventable disease

[phishers3]

ha - thats funny--

thanks for the reply

[insider]

Originally Posted by phishers3

What about the argument that the only reason that the incidents (sp?) of disease x, y ,z is low is because of the last few generations receiving vax? And if we cease vaxing then they (disease x, y ,z ) will return???

But who's making that argument? Pediatricians? Governmental agencies and pharmaceutical representatives? Because scientists are not making that argument at all. It's been a part of mainstream science since the early 1970s that the epidemiological transition away from infectious disease occurs sans vaccination. It can be found in numerous research but it's summed up nicely in the following:

1994 American Academy of Arts and Sciences
Daedalus 61, Vol. 123, No. 4, ISSN: 0011-5266

The "epidemiological transition" is the shift in the main causes of death – from infectious diseases to degenerative cardiovascular diseases and cancers. It marks a fundamental change in the main determinants of health and seems to indicate the point in economic development at which the vast majority of the population gained reliable access to the basic material necessities of life.

The impact of medical science is not reflected in the epidemiological transition. In fact, the transition would have happened (and largely did happen) without it. The great infectious diseases of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries dwindled to a fraction of what they had been long before immunization or effective medical treatment became available. Strongly associated with poverty, in the past as in the Third World today, the decline of the great infections reflected improved living standards and conditions.