Why do non-Jews feel entitled to pass judgment on Jewish circ? - Page 8

[~Kira~]

Originally Posted by thismama

Well, but the problem with this is that it places your framing of the issue (as a human rights issue), as above the child's culture's framing of the issue (as being a sacred rite, and about connection to G-d).

And I think that is arrogant.

While a child may grow up to not practice or even respect his parent's traditions, religions, and so on - that child will always be a human being and always deserving of the fundamental rights that every human being is entitled to.

I'm not going to respond to your 'arrogant' comment - my response would just get deleted.



- Kira

[umsami]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

I'm sorry, but the comparisons between female and male circumcision are offensive to me. The argument that "it's all the same thing" doesn't really hold water, as far as I'm concerned, and the differences are quite obvious.

Then again, I might be offended by that even if I wasn't Jewish.

I do as well. Referring to circumcision as male genital mutilation, putting it on the same level as FGM, as offensive as well.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by ~Kira~

While a child may grow up to not practice or even respect his parent's traditions, religions, and so on - that child will always be a human being and always deserving of the fundamental rights that every human being is entitled to.

nak you are assuming your idea of 'fundamental rights' has no bias, which it does.

[~Kira~]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

I'm sorry, but the comparisons between female and male circumcision are offensive to me. The argument that "it's all the same thing" doesn't really hold water, as far as I'm concerned, and the differences are quite obvious.

Then again, I might be offended by that even if I wasn't Jewish.

There are many many types of female circumcision / genital mutilation / genital modification (I attended a fascinating lecture by Italian researchers on female genital modification practiced in Malawi when I attended the recent Symposium, this is the practice of stretching, not cutting) Female Circumcision / Genital Mutilation can range from a pin-prick to full infibulation and everything in between. So, to assume that all types of female circumcision are more invasive/damaging than male circumcision is incorrect. I was very ignorant about this before - and am still learning more constantly.

What it all boils down to is the fundamental right to bodily integrity of unconsenting people, males, females & intersexed people.

Anyways, I think I've explained my stuff as relating to the OP and I don't want to get this off-track, so I will leave you folks to continue your discussion and thank you for allowing me to express my thoughts - I appreciate it.



- Kira

[crazy_eights]

A child may grow up not to believe in vaccination either, but that doesn't mean that s/he has rotten parents who made other choices. We as parents make the best choices we can based on our value system which we hope to convey to our children. Yes, they may make other choices as adults, but that does not mean that we don't have the right to make sentient, thoughtful decisions that some many not agree with that we believe to be in their best interest.

[~Kira~]

Originally Posted by thismama

nak you are assuming your idea of 'fundamental rights' has no bias, which it does.

It's actually not 'my idea' - I'm amazing, but not quite that good!




- Kira

[umsami]

As for Kira's links (well, all to the same site, LOL) on FGM, I'd recommend this World Health Organizations link as well:

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

It's mainly in Africa. It predates Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. "Most of the girls and women who have undergone genital mutilation live in 28 African countries, although some live in Asia and the Middle East. They are also increasingly found in Europe, Australia, Canada and the USA, primarily among immigrants from these countries.

Today, the number of girls and women who have been undergone female genital mutilation is estimated at between 100 and 140 million. It is estimated that each year, a further 2 million girls are at risk of undergoing FGM."

Here's some more:
http://www.who.int/reproductive-health/fgm/ On Obstetric outcomes with FGM.

Here's an article on it from an Islamic perspective, http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/p...apers/fgm.html

I will say that on many regards this is a cultural issue. In Egypt, over 85% of women are circumcised. It doesn't matter if one is Christian or Muslim. In general, it is type 1. The mothers have their daughters circ'd because of the cultural implications of not being circ'd... i.e. they won't be able to get married. It really is an issue. (Being a single career woman in Egypt is not the same as the U.S. Children (both male and female) live with their parents until they are married. There is no "going off on one's own"... getting a flat with friends, etc. Things that I have trouble relating to, as I was on my own at 18... far away from my parents. It is culturally unacceptable for both men and women to do so.

When I told my OB I was so glad I was having a boy, instead of a girl...so I wouldn't have to deal with the FGM issues with my In-Laws...she said that she treats a lot of Egyptian women here in the States and it's nothing like what I imagine. The women she has seen have not had issues with childbirth...and that the circ is very mild, hardly noticable. I"m sure that it differs depending on the practioner.. but I think we tend to think of the worse (at least I do...the stories of girls bleeding to death... men using knives to open the vagina on the wedding night, etc.).

[~Kira~]

Originally Posted by mom2seven

A child may grow up not to believe in vaccination either, but that doesn't mean that s/he has rotten parents who made other choices. We as parents make the best choices we can based on our value system which we hope to convey to our children. Yes, they may make other choices as adults, but that does not mean that we don't have the right to make sentient, thoughtful decisions that some many not agree with that we believe to be in their best interest.

I gotta get back to work, my lunch break is over - but suffice to say the vax comparison has been tried by countless anti-integrity folks on mainstream debate boards and it never flies because vax are medically recommended and infant circumcision is not. I'll let someone else explain more if needed, or I'll try to pop on later if I wasn't clear enough.



- Kira


PS. Has anyone seen Fire Eyes, a documentary by Soraya Mire? She was circumcised at the age of 13, and developed fistula afterwards. She spoke at the Symposium in Seattle and showed us clips from her new film. It was horrific to watch, but I am so grateful for the work she is doing. I went up to her afterwards and had no words, I was quite a mess emotionally. She just took me in her arms and held me. I finally was able to thank her for sharing her story and she looked at me right in the eyes and said:

"This is your story, this is everyone's story. This is his story and his and his" as she pointed to various men around the room "Boys or girls, it doesn't matter - they all need to be protected"


Truly strong amazing woman - I will always feel honoured to have met her.

[mamajama]

Originally Posted by thismama

nak you are assuming your idea of 'fundamental rights' has no bias, which it does.

This is at the crux of the discussion. I spent al of last year studying human rights. It's absolutely incredible how ambiguous that term really is when you try to pin it down and study it. For an example that relates to this discussion;
Rights to 'bodily integrity' in my culture may trump rights to religious practice. Whereas in another culture, these values are reversed. It really is all relative in many ways. There are people who believe that the body is almost a symbolic vessel to worship their supernatural deity. That belief is the foundation of their culture, one which which has been around, growingn upon that foundation since time imemorial. One person's 'right' is another person's 'restriction'.

ETA:
Of course, with the increase in travel and communication resulting in a melding (or clash) of cultures at an unprecidented rate, there is a need to find common ground. This is the challenge. I believe that it is possible. But there really needs to be education and understanding of one's "foes" in order to bridge the seemingly insurmountable gaps.

[mahdokht]

Originally Posted by umsami

When I told my OB I was so glad I was having a boy, instead of a girl...so I wouldn't have to deal with the FGM issues with my In-Laws...she said that she treats a lot of Egyptian women here in the States and it's nothing like what I imagine. The women she has seen have not had issues with childbirth...and that the circ is very mild, hardly noticable. I"m sure that it differs depending on the practioner.. but I think we tend to think of the worse (at least I do...the stories of girls bleeding to death... men using knives to open the vagina on the wedding night, etc.).

There is another MDC mama who is a nurse who said she had worked with many Somali women who had been circumcised and made similar statements.

[pdx.mothernurture]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

I'm sorry, but the comparisons between female and male circumcision are offensive to me. The argument that "it's all the same thing" doesn't really hold water, as far as I'm concerned, and the differences are quite obvious.

Then again, I might be offended by that even if I wasn't Jewish.

The medical term for foreskin is "prepuce". In males, it's the foreskin. In females, it's the clitoral hood. In both genders, the prepuce protects the glans---glans penis and glans clitoris respectively. The most common type of FGM is the one we tend to hear the least about, Sunna Circumcision---which removed a female child's clitoral hood. In that sense, MGM and FGM most certainly are comparable. We can talk more about that on the CAC forum if you'd like.

---

More generally: I am against subjecting unconsenting minors non-medically indicated genital cutting, regardless of race, religion, nationality, or gender. I believe genital integrity is a basic human right and therefore cannot discriminate against Jewish and Muslim children---who are just as human, and just as deserving of protection as the children of Athiests, Wiccans, Agnostics, Christians, Buddhists, etc. I care about the safety and wellbeing of ALL children.

I pass judgement not so much on the motivations, intentions, or reasonings of parents who I realize love their children and generally mean well but rather on the act itself, because the reason for the cutting does not determine or change the physical loss and harm that every circumcision causes.

Each and every circumcision performed on a healthy child results in the permanent loss of normal, functional, sexual tissue. I believe we all have the right as parents to share our faith with our children in a gentle and respectful way, but rather than instilling religious belief I see circumcision as the carving of beliefs, irreversibly, into the flesh of children who cannot understand let alone consent.

Jen

[~Kira~]

Originally Posted by pdx.mothernurture

More generally: I am against subjecting unconsenting minors non-medically indicated genital cutting, regardless of race, religion, nationality, or gender. I believe genital integrity is a basic human right and therefore cannot discriminate against Jewish and Muslim children---who are just as human, and just as deserving of protection as the children of Athiests, Wiccans, Agnostics, Christians, Buddhists, etc. I care about the safety and wellbeing of ALL children.

I pass judgement not so much on the motivations, intentions, or reasonings of parents who I realize love their children and generally mean well but rather on the act itself, because the reason for the cutting does not determine or change the physical loss and harm that every circumcision causes.

Each and every circumcision performed on a healthy child results in the permanent loss of normal, functional, sexual tissue. I believe we all have the right as parents to share our faith with our children in a gentle and respectful way, but rather than instilling religious belief I see circumcision as the carving of beliefs, irreversibly, into the flesh of children who cannot understand let alone consent.

Jen

Jen can beautifully express in 3 paragraphs what I pretty much buggered up in probably 10!

[ScotchIrishMommy]

Originally Posted by ~Kira~

Jen can beautifully express in 3 paragraphs what I pretty much buggered up in probably 10!

Yes Bravo Jen.

I disagree with those who say it is "offensive" to compare male genital cutting to female genital cutting. Genital cutting is... genital cutting, no matter on whose body it is unconsentingly practiced on. I as an American female got to keep all my body parts I was born with. If I were a circ'ed male, *I* might very well be offended that intact females dismiss my involuntary circumcised state as somehow "not as bad" when it happens to my body, as it would be if it had happened to THEIRS.

If you want to talk about "offensive" -- why are Jews who practice Brit Shalom told they are not good Jews, have their religious beliefs questioned, etc? It seems they are truly the minority within a minority and I believe they have every right to have their voice heard, and their perspective on their Judaism be respected - but do I see a lot of the opposite however.

[dove]

Wow, between Jen's post (in blue) and the one by you, ScotchIrishMommy (particularly identifying with paragraph 2), I am in awe that the two of you were able to express exactly how I feel but am unable to articulate well. Thank you and good night.

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

I'm sorry, but the comparisons between female and male circumcision are offensive to me.

That's not surprising given that MGM is a very common practice in North America and most people have come to view it as the default normal.

[Arduinna]

Wow yes PDX that was awesome and ITA!

[kxsiven]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

I'm sorry, but the comparisons between female and male circumcision are offensive to me. The argument that "it's all the same thing" doesn't really hold water, as far as I'm concerned, and the differences are quite obvious.

?????????

Ok, uh. Why is it offensive?

Do you actually know A)how religious MGMs are done B)what is removed in MGM? C)what is purpose of foreskin and OTHER things that are removed in MGM? Age of children going through religious MGM?

Do you know the types of FGM? Do you know how common each type is? Do you know how the different types of FGM are done? And what exactly is removed? Age of children going through religious FGM?

[kxsiven]

Originally Posted by thismama

nak you are assuming your idea of 'fundamental rights' has no bias, which it does.

I learned about male circumcision 1999 when I met a man from Israel - his circ had gone so badly wrong he could not have kids.I was shocked to hear that something like that happened in this world but did not really get into the whole thing. Shortly after that I moved to USA and the poop hit the fan...I learned about RIC and started to really study the issue.

I am against MGM&FGM no matter who does it or why. So..I am anti-pagan,anti-semite,anti-muslim,anti-aboriginal,anti-american, anti-pacificnative people - and so on.

As far as adult circ...could not care less, chop it all away.

I am also against spanking, no matter who does it - I guess I am biased in that too? After all I am speaking against religious tradition. So let's ad that too. I am anti-evangelic christian too.

Circumcision intervenes in the sexual integrity of a male child causing a permanent change in organisms and has consequences pertaining to both health and quality of life.

The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child demands that the States Parties shall take all effective and appropriate measures with a view to abolishing traditional practices prejudicial to the health of children.

MGM is a traditional practise that kills boys every year.

Yet because it is practised by two major world religions no one dares to touch the subject . And we see the reason for it right here on this thread.

I firmly believe that children deserve religious freedom too. And right to their whole body. Every.Single.Child.

If that is bias, then I am happily biased.

[BinahYeteirah]

Originally Posted by ~Kira~

I've avoided posting here, because to be honest, I really don't relish being called anti-Semetic because I believe every human being is entitled to the basic human right of bodily integrity. Sadly, I've been called far worse than 'anti-Semetic' by a Jewish mother who was extremely angry with my views on Human Rights. (Not on MDC, btw!)

First, I will say that most, if not all, of the Jewish mamas here do not think people are anti-Semitic merely for being against circ in all contexts. Again, this are all feelings that flow out of a long history of what can easily be termed harassment, if not worse, with regards to the many bris threads here

Originally Posted by ~Kira~

However, personally, I don't think that debating Jewish laws as a non-Jew is productive. Normally I just let people know that there is a growing number of Jewish parents who are choosing the Bris Shalom, provide the links to learn more, and leave it at that. I think that if a change is going to happen, it will come from within the group.

Exactly. This is why I don't get the constant stream of threads about this issue rehashing what has already been said. If people really what to get rid of circ, including the religious ones, CV"S, it would seem the best thing to do is to make circ totally unacceptable in general society. If there is still a ton of work to do getting through to people who have no religious reason to circ, I'm not sure why intactivists imagine they will be successful with those who also feel that G-d told them to do it!

Originally Posted by ~Kira~

I'm guess I've probably offended a lot of people now - and I'm sincerely sorry about that. I have no idea why I posted...in fact I'm sitting here trying to decide whether to hit 'post' or not. 'Kay, here goes....

Not offended.

[BinahYeteirah]

Originally Posted by kxsiven

Yet because it is practised by two major world religions no one dares to touch the subject . And we see the reason for it right here on this thread.

But we "talk" about this all the time here in RS. I don't remember you being a part of those discussions, although perhaps I simply don't remember correctly. Regardless, I assure you, the subject has been "touched" frequently, thus our impatience.