Why do non-Jews feel entitled to pass judgment on Jewish circ? - Page 3

[DaryLLL]

Exd 4:24 At a lodging place on the way the LORD met [Moses] and sought to kill him.
Exd 4:25 Then Zippo'rah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin, and touched Moses' feet with it, and said, "Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me!"
Exd 4:26 So [the LORD] let him alone. Then it was that she said, "You are a bridegroom of blood," because of the circumcision.

[captain optimism]

I don't think that's what's happening here, though. Do you see it that way? I have seen a lot of threads about Jewish religious circumcision, including several that posed technical questions well beyond my capacity to answer. I used to teach Judaic Studies, but I had no idea there was so much material out there on what Jews do surgically in a bris. I've learned more here than from actually going to ritual circumcisions.

The critical piece about criticizing some item of Jewish practice is that we are a minority with a long history of resisting attempts by majority cultures and religions to impose their practices on us. So for example, it was a method of resistance in the former Soviet Union for Jews to circumcize. A lot of refuseniks did it as adults. It's not the only Jewish practice that majority cultures have attempted to surpress, of course. That's the context for this discussion for many of us.

I do like it that MDC provides support for Jewish and Muslim moms who have decided not to circ. I respect that, and I especially respect religiously observant moms who have decided that this is one mitzvah they can't keep. it's a really tough position and i'm very happy to see that there are people providing support for one another about it. I also don't want to squelch respectful questioning.

But I do think that the OP has a point. This board has managed to be a safe place for observant Jews of various stripes and Muslim mommies and we even interact. That's really cool. There is also a huge spectrum of religious Christians, observant Pagans and Wiccans, Buddhists, atheists--and we all do pretty well getting along. We also have intactivists on the same board with people who do ritual circ. I think it's worthwhile to think about how we can preserve that diversity and not making people feel unwelcome.

[Arduinna]

I personally find it a human rights issue although I don't bother with the debates over the minutae of Bris Milah (don't know what the name for it is in Islam).

I really think too that there needs to be respect for the fact that, as a non-Jewish person, you truly cannot *know* what circ means in Jewish culture

same argument could be had for every culture regarding anything that people consider to be human rights issues.

[captain optimism]

Originally Posted by umsami

Mara:

Don't worry Islam is questioned too. Trust me... especially with regards to religious circ. (But I've also answered questions regarding was Muhammad (pbuh) a pedophile, 9-11/Terrorism, and lots on hijab.) If you do have questions, you're allowed to ask them on the Religious Studies board. Or just PM me or one of the other Muslim mamas.

Peace,
Umsami

Yes! Whoever thinks people are tiptoeing around Islam on MDC isn't actually reading very much!

[Snowdrift]

Originally Posted by Ruthla

Many Jews choose not to observe their religion. That doesnt' change the religious requirements.

According to you. According to TigerTail's congregation they have differenct religious requirements. I won't even go into my congregation's opinion.

The simple fact remains that Jewish parents have a religious obligation to have a Bris Milah for their sons on his 8th day of life.

There is nothing simple and nothing factual about it. Many Jewish parents believe they have this obligation. Many others, who may well be learned and concerned about religious obligation, may determined that they are not permitted to do this.

It is a question of law, not of fact.

And the rule in American jurisprudence is that the jury is the finder of fact. Only the judge is finder of law. Choose to apply that to the matter as you will.

I am thinking of the Dayan HaEmes.

Please don't twist this around and ask about the infant's choice. The religious obligation is on the PARENTS.

I didn't. Why would you ask me to refrain from something I've given no indication of doing, other than to distract from the matter at hand.

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by Penelope

People can be anti-circ in the anti-circ forum. One hopes that people will also be anti-fgm there. But no one can use their anti-circ position to justify any kind of religious bigotry.

I haven't seen that happen though. Although I will grant that doesn't mean it hasn't. I'm not here everyday

But there needs to issues addressed for those that may be members that are Jewish or Muslim that are questioning circ or flat out anti circ and they arne't allowed to discuss it on the anti circ board, which leaves the problem of negociating their needs being met here. This has happened more than once.

[merpk]

Originally Posted by tie-dyed

ITA. Except for the non-religious person part.

I'm even Jewish and I'm not supposed to voice dissent. Where does the madness end?!

Am quite certain now that you and mama ganoush have me on ignore. Because you keep saying "not supposed to dissent" and no one has said that there's no dissent allowed. No one has said there's no questioning allowed. No one has said any of that. It's disingenuous for you to keep repeating it.



Reread what the OP said and what I said (if I'm not on your ignore list, that is ). It is not the dissent or the questioning or even the criticism that's the problem. It's the constant harping on it, the overload of just thread after thread after thread with the same questions reworded in total denial of the answers given two posts upthread, and the belligerence inherent in much of the posting and questioning.



And belligerence is quite obvious, even with smiles and winks.

[Ruthla]

Originally Posted by tie-dyed

According to you. According to TigerTail's congregation they have differenct religious requirements. I won't even go into my congregation's opinion.

Fine. So TigerTail beleives that circ isn't required for her family. That still doesn't change the fact that thousands of Jews beleive it IS required, and see it as a major tenet of Judaism.

[Snowdrift]

Originally Posted by Ruthla

Fine. So TigerTail beleives that circ isn't required for her family. That still doesn't change the fact that thousands of Jews beleive it IS required, and see it as a major tenet of Judaism.

So?

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by merpk

I don't think the OP or anyone else questioned the right to discuss it. The fact is, however, that there are some posts and posters who post the same thing, over and over and over and over and over again, the same wisecracks, the same questions worded differently, the same challenges just repeatedly.

The point isn't that criticism or questioning is not allowed; not at all. And isn't necessarily antiSemitic.


That's the point.

As hard as it may be (and it isn't easy for me sometimes on some topics) it is up to us if we take the bait though. If you have already determined for yourself that it isn't genuine inquiry then choosing to not participate in the baitfest is often the best recourse. It definately isn't limited to this one issue.

[merpk]

Originally Posted by Arduinna

I haven't seen that happen though. Although I will grant that doesn't mean it hasn't. I'm not here everyday

But there needs to issues addressed for those that may be members that are Jewish or Muslim that are questioning circ or flat out anti circ and they arne't allowed to discuss it on the anti circ board, which leaves the problem of negociating their needs being met here. This has happened more than once.

Nonbrising Jewish mothers and Muslim mothers have had tribes in FYT and support threads in Spirituality. They get all sorts of props on CAC and there have been plenty of threads with mothers of those religions questioning and being convinced not to circumcise. So what other of their needs are not being met?






And you haven't seen the offense, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The mods will tell you that there have been plenty and the mods are on top of it, usually. The ADL verified that, and Mothering put their comments on the board some months back, that when there is antiSemitism on MDC, the moderators deal with it in a timely fashion.

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by merpk

Nonbrising Jewish mothers and Muslim mothers have had tribes in FYT and support threads in Spirituality. They get all sorts of props on CAC and there have been plenty of threads with mothers of those religions questioning and being convinced not to circumcise. So what other of their needs are not being met?

um no, actually I was there when more than one of the threads on CAC have been closed and we aren't even allowed to discuss religious circ, so I have no idea where you are getting that idea. They are always locked and the OP sent here.

[Mackenzie]

I know that this is going to come out not making sense. Please understand that now, rather than reading it and telling me I am not making sense


I HATE HATE HATE the idea of circ. I hate everything about it. It is extremely difficult for me to fathom that there is any reason for it. However, it is very important to me to respect other cultures. I am also a live and let live individual. I don't think that there is anything wrong with what a person chooses to do as long as it does not infringe on another person's life and happiness. Well, circ certainly does. BUT, I also know (though I don't know WHY, only because I have not studied it) that it is increibly important to the Jewish faith/culture so I have to assume that there IS an important reason for it.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't like the idea that it is being done, but I also feel that I have to trust these mama's and papa's (and this is due to my reading HERE by MDC mama's and papa's) that it IS important. That they are not being sheeple.

I don't really know how to answer the actual question. I can't say that I DON"T care, because I do. I can't say that it does not concern me because that makes it hard to continue to say that RIC concerns me. I think that it is one of those things that I have to let go, and have faith/trust that the right thing is going on......


Does that help? Probably not, but I tried.

[mama ganoush]

i don't have anyone on ignore, never have.

and even in rereading the op, yes-i find the suggestion that non-jews should not question jews about circ. the very title strongly suggests that. And I am not cool with that, same as I would not be cool with any suggestion that non-Christians can't, say, question the homophobia of right-wing christians.

[merpk]

Originally Posted by Arduinna

As hard as it may be (and it isn't easy for me sometimes on some topics) it is up to us if we take the bait though. If you have already determined for yourself that it isn't genuine inquiry then choosing to not participate in the baitfest is often the best recourse. It definately isn't limited to this one issue.

Did you read captain optimism's post upthread? Do you grok at all that antiSemitism has included anti-bris legislation for thousands of years? And do you grok that the baitfests are often antiSemitic, overtly so? So much so that other posters who aren't Jewish point it out?


Like the OP in this thread, for example.



And do you or other posters ignore posters who write things that insult you or other groups that you feel concern for? No, you refute the misinformation, point out the bigotry for all to see, and then usually have a pat-yourself-on-the-back-fest for another few dozen posts. Which is what we do over and over again about bris milah ... refute the misinformation, point out the bigotry. (Though we don't get to pat ourselves on the back, because then someone says, "ah ha! you are pro-circ! you mutilators you!")

[Arduinna]

I don't know what grok is?

[dove]

Originally Posted by merpk

Nonbrising Jewish mothers and Muslim mothers have had tribes in FYT and support threads in Spirituality. They get all sorts of props on CAC and there have been plenty of threads with mothers of those religions questioning and being convinced not to circumcise. So what other of their needs are not being met?

I personally think that there is a huge difference between a support thread of like-minded individuals and the right to speak out on issues on certain forums.
I actually don't see non-circing Jewish parents getting "all sorts of props" on the CAC forum. More like it seems to me whenever the subject comes up, immediately someone cries anti-semite (even if you are a Jew) and the thread is closed.
The above is said with no snark, but plenty of sadness.

[umsami]

One issue I've had in terms of any of the circ discussions is that we're not supposed to talk about how to make it easier on the child ... like breastfeeding before and after, anesthesia (and what kind is best), sweeties (sugar dipped pacifiers), herbs, etc.

If one knows that certain Mamas *are* going to circ... because they believe it is required by their religion... shouldn't those Mamas be allowed to talk about ways to make it a less-traumatic experience for their sons??

Could that be part of the sticky, perhaps?? Just a thought. It seems weird to keep that info from Jewish and Muslim mamas.

[merpk]

Originally Posted by tie-dyed

Very little, if any, of what I have said has been in response to the op. It has been in response to the allegations of anti-semitism and the proposition that to disagree, especially to disagree vocally, with religious circ, is tantemount to anti-semitism.



Um, why are you lol-ing? We're having a debate, not a comedy.

So glad you're so serious. So am I. But the comment I made was humorous. You don't want to laugh, then don't. I did. The comment was about me being on an ignore list, and not about bris milah. Just in case that gets twisted.





First.





And second, maybe you and Arduinna haven't been on the RS board so much lately to see what's been happening over and over and over again. Several particular posters have been repeatedly starting threads that go the same way. Maybe the OP has a different slant than the previous ones, but the same arguments are put forth, and if you read the contemptuousness in them (smirking contemptuousness, with smilies, no less) then you'd perhaps know where the OP in this thread is coming from.





It is fascinating how variations on the line "those Jews are always screeching 'antiSemitism' over everything" is used to stifle discussion of blatant antiSemitism. Particularly when no one no one no one is trying to stifle discussion. The only thing anyone wants to stifle is antiSemitism. The fact that we Jewish mamas keep on responding with the same answers over and over and over might make it obvious that we're having the discussions, not stifling them.




The locked threads in CAC, Arduinna, are over discussions of bris milah there. They get moved to RS, which is as it should be. That's not stifling discussion, that's moving the discussion to the more appropriate place.

[merpk]

Originally Posted by dove

I personally think that there is a huge difference between a support thread of like-minded individuals and the right to speak out on issues on certain forums.
I actually don't see non-circing Jewish parents getting "all sorts of props" on the CAC forum. More like it seems to me whenever the subject comes up, immediately someone cries anti-semite (even if you are a Jew) and the thread is closed.
The above is said with no snark, but plenty of sadness.

sorry, but I don't buy it. It's factually incorrect. there are plenty of threads with nonbrising Jewish parents stating that point plainly and getting "I'm so proud of you, you're such a good mama" response.

NOBODY BUT NOBODY (of the regular MDC Jewish posters, that is) cries antiSemite over anything remotely resembling that.

What does get reported are posts that say, "Thank goodness you didn't barbarically mutilate your child because rabbis want to chop off your child's penis" and the like. That is antiSemitic. Don't you think?

Or maybe you don't. Maybe we're discussing this from within entirely different paradigms and you'll just never get it.







"Grok" means to understand fully and deeply from and within the innermost place of your being. Sorry, I use it in day2day conversation, so sometimes it comes out on the keyboard as well.