Yelling - Page 2

[mama_b]

Originally Posted by mightymoo

I was yelled at all the time as a kid, my mother did a lot of belittling and that sort. Generally when I did anything wrong, it resulted in an hour of two of being yelled at and belittled in which I yelled back for as long as I could and hten broke down and cried while my mother continued to yell. Beyond straight out yelling, sarcasm and snide remarks were employed. I vowed not to be like that, but I struggle with this constantly. I don't usually hang around this forum much because I don't feel the folks here understand that its not just something I can just 'not do' like I choose the color of my shirt in the morning.

Like OP, most folks who don't have a tendency to yell don't understand what those who struggle not to have to go through - when I get angry and frustrated, that is the only thing I want to do. When my daughter continues to push my buttons (generally by hitting her little brother) I just come unglued. I try to vent it into statements of feeling like 'I am angry!', or just make angry noises, etc and not attach any judgement to them, but I know this still affects my DD. I see her yell at her little brother in turn and I know its because I yell at her. I hate it, but its not as simple as 'not doing it', its so part of who I am and I'm very frustrated with that.

I feel like I just don't fit in as a GD parent because I struggle with this. I really wanted to abandon this post even after I took the time to type it, but I'm fighting that desire and going to post anyway because I feel there are others out there that struggle with this and I hate to have them feel alone here. I hate that there is the idea that unless you can conform to the principles of GD, then you aren't "GD" (or AP or NFL or whatever). Some of us have a harder journey getting there and need support along the way, not to be judged because we are imperfect. I believe GD is the right thing to do, its my goal to get there, but I'm not there yet.

Maybe we need a 'Adult Children of Yellers Anonymous' tribe or something

I haven't read all the posts, but I wanted to respond to this. The same thing happened to me repeatedly when I was a child (being yelled at for hours). Yelling back was my only defense mechanism. I struggle SO badly not to yell at my dd. She is only 16 months. I only succeed in not yelling at her about half the time. I just don't know how else to deal with things in the moment. But I'm working on it.

[LoveBeads]

I can think of two people who aren't "yellers" but they are far from perfect examples of GD. They speak to their kids in a very exaggerated belittling tone and it sounds downright shaming and condescending. No they don't yell but what they do isn't any less damaging because it is completely inauthentic.

Mamas who yell and who come to the GD forum - do NOT hang your heads in shame. You should stand up proud for coming here and sharing your stories. You are teaching us. We are all teaching each other.

I really feel uncomfortable when subjects come up that seem to make one group a "better" GD parent than another. I really do.

[primjillie]

I don't think anyone is judging another, just trying to understand the difference between yelling and other forms of discipline. I was just trying to understand why yelling doesn't seem to fall under forbidden forms of discipline, like spanking for example, because I feel yelling can be just as harmful.

[becoming]

I am a yeller (actually I am more of a screamer, to be honest) by nature, and screaming is always my first instinct when I get angry/overwhelmed/frustrated/whatever. It is a BIG problem for me, and I really struggle with this. My husband has even commented on it, and he is not the type to openly criticize. I find myself moving more and more away from yelling, but I do have relapses occasionally. I would say that this is the personality trait I struggle with the most when it comes to not just parenting, but all relationships.

I also wanted to add that I totally agree and empathize with the PP who said that yelling is like an out-of-body experience. There have been countless times that I have "caught myself" yelling at my son, knew it was wrong and harmful to him, and couldn't stop. It's very hard to explain, and I'm sure even harder to understand if you haven't been through it yourself. Just wanted to say that I know how that feels.

[Magella]

Originally Posted by primjillie

I don't think anyone is judging another, just trying to understand the difference between yelling and other forms of discipline. I was just trying to understand why yelling doesn't seem to fall under forbidden forms of discipline, like spanking for example, because I feel yelling can be just as harmful.

Forbidden in what way?

I don't think anyone here celebrates yelling, I've never seen that. Those who have posted on this thread, and every other mama I've seen post about yelling here at MDC, has said that they are well aware of how undesirable, ineffective and harmful yelling is. Yelling is no one's goal here, no one here is happy yelling. *Not* yelling is the goal. The fact that people come here looking for help, or venting about a bad day, looking for support in their journey to do better in no way implies that yelling is celebrated by anyone here.

I posted to this thread, sharing my struggle, in order to support other moms facing similar struggles in their work toward their gentle discipline goals, and to help those who haven't struggled with this understand how difficult it can be. I wasn't comfortable posting, because I too was unsure of the intent of this thread. I continue to be unsure about the intent, but I hope this thread is helpful to other struggling mothers and doesn't degenerate into an attack on less-than-perfect moms.

[Lkg4dmcrc]

Originally Posted by Cate

I deffinatly agree with this. I was raised in a very AP/GD familly, however, my parents did occasionally slip up, no one is perfect.
For the past two years, I feel like I've been living in a pressure cooker, and as a result, have not always been the perfect example of GD that I would like to be. When I was at the peak of this difficult time, my local LLL leader felt the need to phone me to tell me that she was concerned that I didn't believe in GD, and that Jenna was suffering as a result of this. I've had a very hard time dealing with her comments, and I ended up leaving my LLL group as a result. The added stress this caused made it even harder for me to parent the way that I wanted/want to.
What people need when they are struggling with yelling etc is not judment, it's support and understanding. Casting judgement only ends up making things worce.

I am so glad you pointed this out. The shame/ anger/shame cycle is really vicious and it leads people to abandon their relationships. I understand that some people are coming to this with a genuine interest to learn about yelling, how people deal with it, etc. Others may not be so genuine and in fact shame people even more. If we really want to promote GD, we need to be aware of the shaming and the damage it can cause. I wouldn't want people to completely abandon GD or feel they have to because they happen to be struggling in their efforts to stop yelling.

As an aside, My SIL/MIL both are not yellers at all. But they are the most passive aggressive/shaming people around. You don't have to be a yeller to do damage to your kids!

[angelpie545]

I am too a yeller by nature. My mother would always get upset and yell at me when I was younger, then calm down and talk about it in a more rational way. She was one of those people who moods were always, up, then down, then up the down. I've wondered from time to time if she was bi-polar, but I've come to realize that she's just extremely sensitive.

However, I hate yelling, and I don't ever want my kids to feel like that. I remember being really scared when my mom would scream when I was a kid, and then when I got older I would just roll my eyes and try to calm her down.

So I've taught myself a couple of techniques: First of if I'm really REALLY mad-...I opera sing instead of yelling. Sounds nutso, but I'm a singer, and I singing calms me down, so I just sing very loudly. My kids think it's funny and we both start laughing and calm down. Secondly, I look at my kids and think, what are they thinking of me right now? Would I want me to be my mommy? It really helps put things into prespective. Then I try to think of the big picture-is what they did really that bad? Do I really need to freak out? Is there some other way I could handle this better? I try as often as I can to let natural consequences teach a lesson. Also, I remember to myself-the purpose of discipline is to teach a lesson, not to punish or demean.

Another thing I do is try to talk in a low, calm voice. Instead of channeling my energy into screaming, I talk in a very low voice. This doesn't scare the kids but sounds authorative and meaningful, so they quiet down and listen.

I think the main reason why I try to not to yell and scream is it makes the child feel totally out of control. The reason is: children look to parents for everything-and the learn and imitate everything we do-especially our "not so good" behavior. They look to us for examples of self-control. The parent who yells and screams constantly is showing the child that it is alright to throw a tantrum and scream when things don't go your way. Children need someone calm and authorative that they can look up to, and when that person starts acting like a child, then the children feel out of control and their behavior reflects that.

There are certain situations where I do however feel yelling is appropriate: When is in a dangerous situation and you need to get his attention: for example child runs out into a busy parking lot-in this case it's okay to show him that you are scared. Or, when's he's about to do something that will cause him harm: such as jumping off something really high, or about to put a knife in a light socket. In this case yelling is not a form a discipline, rather a way to grab the child's attention quickly before they put themselves in a position where they could be physically harmed.

[primjillie]

I guess I'm not explaining it very well. Let's say, if someone was to come on MDC and saying they are spanking their kids everyday, but trying to do better, I think they'd be flamed. But when people come on and say they yell everyday, they get sympathized with. My dh is a yeller, so I do see that side, please don't think I haven't experienced it. If I'm still not explaining this right, just ignore me - I'm not trying to judge anyone!

[jee'smom]

Originally Posted by angela&avery

If you arent predisposed to being a yeller, you would never understand. It is not EASY. Its a guilt filled journey of parenting. When you grow up being yelled at, it is often a forefront of "tools" that are ingrained in you. I never yelled at my son either when he was little. Its soooooo different when you have two kids and they fight. Mama bear istinct rages and you are like... whoaa..... what was that....

It sucks. Its a knee jerk reaction as someone mentioned and depending on your personality its not enough to just reallize its wrong, its a conditioning. I find I do better if I am currently reading some sort of gd book... then I have fresh ideas in my mind of how to handle things when the kids are out of control and I feel out of control.

When I yell its like an out of body experience. I can almost see myself yelling and Im telling myself to stop and I CANT.

The best thing is for me to do is address the children before I get upset, and to get control of the sibling rivalry. I have done that having read "Mom, Jasons Breathing On Me" (by far the most helpful book Ive read), and I really rarely yell anymore, but for a while it was so tough. I mean, my family is relatively loud by nature, but Im not getting upset and yelling anymore to try to control the situation. At least not all day every day.

It is a LONG HARD journey, be thankful and feel lucky you dont understand, and try not to judge us "yellers".

I could not have said it better myself. Are you my lost identical twin? This is EXACTLY how I feel. I'm going to try to get that book. I've also started therapy to help with anger management.

[peacelovingmama]

Originally Posted by primjillie

I guess I'm not explaining it very well. Let's say, if someone was to come on MDC and saying they are spanking their kids everyday, but trying to do better, I think they'd be flamed. But when people come on and say they yell everyday, they get sympathized with. My dh is a yeller, so I do see that side, please don't think I haven't experienced it. If I'm still not explaining this right, just ignore me - I'm not trying to judge anyone!

Personally, I have seen lots of people who admit to hitting get tons of support and encouragement here. The only negative responses I have seen have been when someone comes here and actually defends or advocates hitting children. Personally, anyone who comes here seeking to better her parenting -- whether they hit, scream, use love-withdrawal or some other harmful tactic -- has my sympathy and support. Either way, it sounds like we all agree that this should be a support/educational/inspirational forum no matter what the person's struggle involves -- so long as the person isn't rationalizing the harmful practice.

ETA: I will freely admit though, that I am personally much more sensitive to physical violence. I recognize that verbal abuse CAN be as damaging but I don't think I've seen descriptions of that here. I'm sure there will be disagreement, but I do view most physical violence as more alarming that the sort of yelling that has been described here. Certainly neither is desirable but all we can do is help one another do better.

[momster]

great thread

Hi mamas,

I'm loving this thread and it's coming at exactly the moment that I need it to. I want to respond to so many posts, but instead of quoting everyone, I'll just do my best ad lib.

Am I a yeller?
Didn't think so until recently when I yelled at my 20 mos ds 2 days in a row. I had previously yelled at him once at about 15 mos and couldn't believe I'd done it and thought I'd never do it again. But as those of use who have yelled know, it's not that easy to stop.

Is yelling like hitting?
I was so wrong to yell, and I agree with some of the posters that it may be as damaging as hitting. I think any physical abuse/discipline is wrong, however I think a child being beaten day in and out is much more harmed than a child who is spanked one time and never again. I think the same is true with yelling.

Where does the yelling come from?
I've been pondering this a lot recently. My dad yelled sometimes, but not all the time. Mostly when he wasn't drunk, and he was mostly drunk. My mom didn't yell, but she did have a very difficult time expressing frustration and anger. I remember her heavy sighs and grunts of frustration and disappointment. When I think of her sighing, my skin crawls, maybe from the feeling of all that bottled up negativity not finding a way out? So I've been realizing that I never learned constructive ways to express anger and frustration. I expressed a lot of anger in therapy, support groups, demonstrations, speak outs, etc about 15-20 yrs ago. Yelling, kicking the floor, etc were all condoned in those settings, but they don't serve me very well as a parent.

One poster mentioned that children pick up the negative behaviors so easily. I berate myself for repeating negative behaviors that I learned from my parents (and there seem to be many of them), so the other day I started wondering what traits in my personality I can use to respond more creatively to frustrating situations with my son. I realized that my mother is incredibly caring with babies and my father is very analytical and creative in problem solving and I have all of these traits in me too. So I'm trying come up with concrete responses to situations that draw on these traits in myself.

Parenting is a hard but very rewarding journey. Thanks for making it to the end of my long post.

[becoming]

The craziest thing just happened...

This thread prompted me to go to amazon.com and look for a book to help me with my yelling/screaming. I typed in only the word "parenting" in their search block, and the *first* thing at the top of the list was a book called "ScreamFree Parenting: Raising Your Kids By Keeping Your Cool." It's meant to be! Needless to say, I'm ordering! Has anyone read this?

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by hempmama

I think everybody struggles with something, and if they tell you they don't then what they struggle with is delusion and egomaniacism.

Word.


I honestly cannot remember ever being yelled at, my parents are very even tempered and to this day I've only heard them raise their voices a handful of times, and that was more of a volume of frustration - I've still never heard them shout/scream. I'd never been a yeller in my whole life either, until about 3 months ago, soon after DD was born. Coincidence? I think not. I didn't start yelling at DS until I wasn't able to immediately get to him to redirect, distract, etc. like I was before she was born. So for me it wasn't a first instinct, it was more like desperation and exhaustion...

So what changed things for me? My 2-1/2-year-old son started yelling back at me about 3 weeks ago. : He would match my tone and intensity, and oftentimes exceed it. And it was killing me.

So, I've made a really conscientious effort to take a deep breath and *whisper* when I start feeling that presure cooker inside me. And it seems to be working, as he's decreasing his intensity, too. Over the past 3 days, I only started to yell once, and as soon as I saw him wrench up his face and open his mouth wide I stopped and got down on his level and started whispering again. He's like my barometer, a direct (and painfully accurate) reflection of how I'm handling things in my life....which is amazing and humbling, all at the same time.

It's a process. I'm lucky enough to have enough of a "warning system" inside myself to feel when I'm getting to my breaking point, and I can breathe deeply and start speaking more quietly; I can't imagine how difficult it is for people who grew up with yelling, since I didn't and it's still hard for me sometimes to stop myself.

I give an enormous amount of credit and feel huge admiration for parents who are able to break the cycle, and my recent struggles have only enforced that feeling. So to every mama reading my post who is working to break the cycle from their own childhood, you are giving an amazing gift to your children; remember to be as gentle with yourselves in your struggles as you would like to be with your children.

If there's one thing I've learned in my 2-1/2 short years of being a parent, it's "never say never". Motherhood has been the most awe-inspiring, fulfilling, humbling experience of my life, and I cannot wait to continue on the journey, meeting new challenges head on and striving every day to be gentle with my children, my husband, AND myself.

[lisac77]

Although I strive to be a GD parent, I was yelled at and it's the first thing I resort to when I am stressed and DS is misbehaving. I hate it. I hate what I am modeling for him. I hate the fact that I am losing my cool. I try every day to be calm with him, but some days are just harder than others.

I still consider myself a GD parent. I belive that GD is a journey of personal growth. I am currently reading a bunch of parenting books to put more tools in my parenting toolbox so that yelling is not the first thing I reach for.

Hugs to other mamas who are going through this. I know how hard it is.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by The4OfUs

He's like my barometer, a direct (and painfully accurate) reflection of how I'm handling things in my life....which is amazing and humbling, all at the same time.

This is a good description, my kids are like that too. They're also like aversion therapy for my yelling, as it is so ineffective and clearly damaging to our relationship that I might as well have been shocked. In spite of this, I still do yell more frequently than I ever thought I would. It is a struggle, a huge struggle. But, I do give myself credit that I don't yell insults, like my mom and dad did. I just repeat my requests at a much higher volume. Progress, I guess.

[gaialice]

I am Italian and I want to say that there is a cultural element to the yelling, as well. I mean, in Italy, yelling is NORMAL. Adults yell to one another about parking lots, colleagues yell at one another in the office...things like that. Now, I do not think yelling's a good thing. I was not yelled at as a child myself, and when people yell at me, I am so surprised I cannot say anything and people actually walk all over me. Now, I am trying hard not to yell at my kids, but, I think that I will never be as good at that as a Norwegian... YKWIM? Anyway, trying to curb the yelling is not the way to go, in my opinion. I have tried to curb the yelling and instead taken up a very nasty, sarcastic, and ridiculizing tone of voice. I realized that was even worse. So, I am trying to deal now with both the deep and the immediate causes of the anger I feel and adress those. That's the important thing...

[Magella]

Originally Posted by primjillie

I guess I'm not explaining it very well. Let's say, if someone was to come on MDC and saying they are spanking their kids everyday, but trying to do better, I think they'd be flamed. But when people come on and say they yell everyday, they get sympathized with. My dh is a yeller, so I do see that side, please don't think I haven't experienced it. If I'm still not explaining this right, just ignore me - I'm not trying to judge anyone!

Ah. Okay, first off, I'm not picking on you I promise. This is something that is important to me to explore, so I wonder if you'd be willing to tell me if I'm "hearing" you clearly: Are you wondering why, when a person posts about yelling at their kids, no one seems to come out and flame them by telling them how wrong yelling is and how much it's hurting their kids? Are you wondering why instead they are offered support and encouragement and sympathy or empathy? Are you wondering if offering the support, encouragement, empathy and compassion is perhaps encouraging yelling as a parenting practice? Are you wondering none of this, but just curious about the general tone of responses here because it isn't what you expected? (Have we scared you away? I hope not.)

Again, I'm looking for clarity here because I'm just curious and I think this is actually a very important discussion. Personally, I'm of the mind that it is exactly compassion and empathy that is needed to change the more violent parts of ourselves and our culture. I think that harsh words and harsh judgments of others are violent in nature and only add to the violence of our world. Also, I think that simply saying to someone "yelling is so hurtful to your kids" is not only telling someone what they already know (in most cases here at MDC) but is also not addressing the root of the problem. When my kids hit each other or yell at each other, I can tell them that's wrong and I can tell them how the other person feels or how much it hurts the other, but until I offer them the empathy they need and understand and address the reasons for hitting and yelling (offering them the support, encouragement and skills they need to address their problems in better ways) the problem is not likely to be resolved for the long-term. Now, none of us here is going to fix another parent's yelling problem, but we can offer them some of the empathy, encouragement, tools and support they need. We're as human as our kids, and not all that different in terms of what we need in order to grow and learn to do better.

I agree with whomever said that actually parents who come here admitting to spanking but trying to do better do receive support and encouragement. It's the advocacy of spanking that would be strongly spoken against. And that is another matter entirely.

And I think it's good to remember, also, that each of us probably defines "yelling" in slightly different ways.

Originally Posted by lisac77

I belive that GD is a journey of personal growth.

Most definitely.

[margitmama]

Originally Posted by gaialice

I am Italian and I want to say that there is a cultural element to the yelling, as well. I mean, in Italy, yelling is NORMAL. Adults yell to one another about parking lots, colleagues yell at one another in the office...things like that. Now, I do not think yelling's a good thing. I was not yelled at as a child myself, and when people yell at me, I am so surprised I cannot say anything and people actually walk all over me. Now, I am trying hard not to yell at my kids, but, I think that I will never be as good at that as a Norwegian... YKWIM? Anyway, trying to curb the yelling is not the way to go, in my opinion. I have tried to curb the yelling and instead taken up a very nasty, sarcastic, and ridiculizing tone of voice. I realized that was even worse. So, I am trying to deal now with both the deep and the immediate causes of the anger I feel and adress those. That's the important thing...

I totally agree!
I think the cause and intensity of the anger (and subsequent yelling) are really important to examine.
I grew up in a home that was very lively, passionate and loving, and yes there was yelling, and that was ok. It was part of the deal. In fact, the tense silences were way more nerve-wracking and worrying to me - then you knew something was really wrong.
I guess what I am saying is that there are many ways to raise a voice; there is the belittling, denigrating, scaring, humilating, over-powering, way, and there is also a "hello is anyone listening to me?" raised voice. Not saying the latter is wise or effective, but I think a distinction can be made between the former and the latter.

[loraxc]

And I think it's good to remember, also, that each of us probably defines "yelling" in slightly different ways.

Yes, I really have to agree with this. I am an occasional yeller (attempting reform!) I really do not like it when I yell, but I wonder if some of the "nonyellers" here are picturing me screaming, "SHUT UP, YOU STUPID KID!" I have never done that--I hope I won't, but as someone else said, never say never, as this IS a humbling journey...Anyway, when I refer to myself yelling, I simply mean that I am raising my voice to my child in frustration or anger. The words are not actually abusive, but the tone and volume are not ideal. I often discover that I am yelling to be heard over DD's yelling/screaming...like this scene as we left for daycare and work this morning:

DD: "I WANT A LAVENDER LEAF! WE HAVE TO GO BACK! GO BACK AND GET THE LAVENDER LEAF!"
ME (reasonable voice, inaudible over the din): "DD, I'm sorry, but we can't turn the car around. We have to go take you to school."
DD: I WANT THE LEAF! GO BACK!
(etc. etc....she is wigging out...)
ME: DD, NO! WE CAN'T GO BACK. IT'S TIME FOR SCHOOL. WE WILL GET A LEAF WHEN WE GET HOME.

[Cate]

Originally Posted by loraxc

Yes, I really have to agree with this. I am an occasional yeller (attempting reform!) I really do not like it when I yell, but I wonder if some of the "nonyellers" here are picturing me screaming, "SHUT UP, YOU STUPID KID!" I have never done that--I hope I won't, but as someone else said, never say never, as this IS a humbling journey...Anyway, when I refer to myself yelling, I simply mean that I am raising my voice to my child in frustration or anger. The words are not actually abusive, but the tone and volume are not ideal. I often discover that I am yelling to be heard over DD's yelling/screaming...like this scene as we left for daycare and work this morning:

DD: "I WANT A LAVENDER LEAF! WE HAVE TO GO BACK! GO BACK AND GET THE LAVENDER LEAF!"
ME (reasonable voice, inaudible over the din): "DD, I'm sorry, but we can't turn the car around. We have to go take you to school."
DD: I WANT THE LEAF! GO BACK!
(etc. etc....she is wigging out...)
ME: DD, NO! WE CAN'T GO BACK. IT'S TIME FOR SCHOOL. WE WILL GET A LEAF WHEN WE GET HOME.

Yup, that's me too. Every time it happens the guilt eats me alive... especially when Jenna's in one of those moods where the tinniest thing will set her off. On those days when I raise my voice, the tears well up in her eyes, and she starts to cry... ooooo... the guilt.... then Callum gets in on the action... even more guilt. They're good at that. It's not even productive... when she's like that, yelling just makes her dig her heels in even more. I *know* it's counter-productive, but when she won't stop yammering on even for a second to listen to what I'm trying to say, and it's been one of those days, sometimes the volume just creeps up and up, until I find myself yelling. <sigh> so not proud of it.