Why???

[coloradoalice]

Why is this still going on?

Why?

I just don't get it. I really really don't.
How can a doctor ethically perform a circumcision?
How can they give informed consent that doesn't talk a parent into leaving their little boy perfect, just as he is born?
Why do we give boys/men the impression they aren't good enough right from the day they are born?
Why haven't men risen up, I mean risen up and fought this?
Why aren't they mad, I mean seethingly mad?
Why does this continue?
How can this continue?
When society tried to tell women what do to with their bodies they rose up and fought with anger and passion. And they won!! Why don't men do that?
Why do they accept what society has dictated?
Why do we allow them to view their sexual being as ugly and dirty and in need of immediate cosmetic altering?
Why?
Why?
Why?

Sorry, I'm just really pissed tonight, and missing my husbands foreskin which I never had the chance to experience.

[urchin_grey]

[Acksiom]

Originally Posted by coloradoalice

Why is this still going on?


Why?

Essentially, it's because we haven't yet developed the technology to make equal rights for males sufficiently affordable -- see below.

Originally Posted by coloradoalice

How can a doctor ethically perform a circumcision?

When there's no lesser means of preserving a patient's life and health. Apart from that, they can't.

Originally Posted by coloradoalice

How can they give informed consent that doesn't talk a parent into leaving their little boy perfect, just as he is born?

Through the practice not being properly outlawed as the sexually discriminatory assault that it is.

Originally Posted by coloradoalice

Why do we give boys/men the impression they aren't good enough right from the day they are born?

Because we prefer to have the cheaper prices on goods and services provided through their willing self-sacrifice of their safety, health, and lives, instead of paying higher prices in exchange for having everybody value men and boys less poorly.

We indoctrinate everyone into believing that men and boys are less worthy of protection and concern so that they will be more likely to expend their physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual health and lives for the overall benefit of everyone in general. We also reinforce this belief throughout their lives by positive and negative behavioral modification; i.e. rewards and punishments for obeying and violating the norms and codes of masculine behavior.

Originally Posted by coloradoalice

Why haven't men risen up, I mean risen up and fought this?

Because men, too, benefit from the strict gender indoctrination of everyone into devaluing men and boys so that they become sufficiently willing to sell themselves cheaply enough.

Originally Posted by coloradoalice

Why aren't they mad, I mean seethingly mad?

Ignorance, indoctrination, and intimidation. The vast majority have no idea that they have lost anything; the vast majority of those who do realize it simply do not value themselves highly enough to become angry about it; and the vast majority of those who do value themselves highly enough know better than to express their feelings about it because they will be punished for doing so.

Originally Posted by coloradoalice

Why does this continue?

Because stopping it would cost too much.

Originally Posted by coloradoalice

How can this continue?

Through people preferring it to remain less expensive to train everyone to devalue boys and men so that they willingly sacrifice their own safety, health, and lives than it would cost to have everyone value them less poorly.

Originally Posted by coloradoalice

When society tried to tell women what do to with their bodies they rose up and fought with anger and passion.

Actually, no, they didn't. For the most part, throughout history and same as the men around them at the times, they just rolled over and took it from the elite ruling classes.

The recent considerable expansion of women's choices in life is the result of the child mortality rate decreasing to a mere fraction of all pregnancies, in combination with the general availability of safe, affordable, reliable birth control and a significant increase in labor-saving technology in women's traditional areas of responsibility, rather than angry and passionate activism.

Advances in the actual expression of human rights are, as a rule, far more the result of the scientific and technological improvements which make them possible than they are the result of angry and passionate advocates, as can be seen by the consistent comparative failure of anger and passion to change reality throughout human history measured against the effects of science and technology.

Sorry to ruin the illusion, but that's just how it is.

We may like to believe that it is our angry and passionately motivated activism which changes the world, but the truth is that it is improvements in science and technology which create the possibilities for large-scale change, and our activism only exploits them as they become available.

Originally Posted by coloradoalice

And they won!!

No; they were allowed, by the rest of those around them, to establish the changes they wanted simply because the consequences of those changes were finally made sufficiently affordable.

Originally Posted by coloradoalice

Why don't men do that?

Because the vast majority of people will not allow it; the consequences of the changes involved are not sufficiently affordable for them.

Originally Posted by coloradoalice

Why do they accept what society has dictated?

Because, again, men, too, benefit from the strict gender indoctrination of boys and men to willingly self-sacrifice their safety, health, and lives.

Additionally, the vast majority would rather put up with society's dictates than suffer the punishments applied for refusing to accept them.

Originally Posted by coloradoalice

Why do we allow them to view their sexual being as ugly and dirty and in need of immediate cosmetic altering?

Because if they valued themselves more highly, people would have to pay higher prices for goods and services than they are willing to accept.

[kldliam]

why?

It's high-fashion to torture baby boys at birth. It's a SICK culture that we live in. PSYCHOTHERAPY is needed in MASS!!! people just don't get this simple idea:

Boys are HUMAN too and they have the SAME right's to genital integrity as GIRLS DO!!!!

[blsilva]

I ask myself this every day:
Why does my SIl, who worked in a ped's office and has "assisted" in circ's, want to circ her child?

[Greenie]

I know mama. I wanna know too.

[MamaKalena]

I'm not a cryer but I think my eyes tear up ever time I enter this forum!

I always feel so helpless when I think about all of the seemingly "good" people living among us who choose to hurt their babies. I'm so thankful for this forum and for the strong and articulate intactivists here who are working so hard to change things.

One day, I know we will look back as a nation on this barbaric and inhumane treatment of innocent babies and be so very ashamed of ourselves. Like slavery. I still can't believe that happened here.

[Greenie]

Originally Posted by MamaKalena

I'm not a cryer but I think my eyes tear up ever time I enter this forum!

I always feel so helpless when I think about all of the seemingly "good" people living among us who choose to hurt their babies. I'm so thankful for this forum and for the strong and articulate intactivists here who are working so hard to change things.

One day, I know we will look back as a nation on this barbaric and inhumane treatment of innocent babies and be so very ashamed of ourselves. Like slavery. I still can't believe that happened here.

Well, I won't.. But I know what you mean. I literally have stopped being friends with people when I found out that they circ'd after knowing the facts. :

The more I think about the piss-poor state of this nation, it makes me wanna get out of here all the more.

[Revamp]

Because, again, men, too, benefit from the strict gender indoctrination of boys and men to willingly self-sacrifice their safety, health, and lives.

How exactly?

Overall considered in net higher prices (which I am not sure about really, we do not seem to have either them or circumcision here in Britain) are far less "Beneficial" that preputal pleasure.

[Blu Razzberri]

Originally Posted by MamaKalena

...I always feel so helpless when I think about all of the seemingly "good" people living among us who choose to hurt their babies...

I resent this comment greatly. I am a good person and I didn't decide to circumcise because I chose to hurt my baby.

I did it for a number of other reasons. I was raised in a family where that was just part of what went on. I did explore the other side as well, but what pushed me to do it was ultimately knowing that if he had complications, it would be a surgery for him instead.

However, now reading all the things on here, I may not have decided to let it take place, however, I can't change that now and therefore don't dwell on it. I'm human, I make mistakes. But at least I can sit back and say that I did the best I could with what I had to inform myself. I simply didn't have enough information, and still to this day don't have enough information.

I also learn from my mistakes, and if I were to have another boy, I'd certainly dig deeper because I now know more of where to obtain information to support the "don't do it" argument.

[MamaKalena]

Originally Posted by Blu Razzberri

I resent this comment greatly. I am a good person and I didn't decide to circumcise because I chose to hurt my baby.

I'm sorry that you did not have all the facts when you chose to circumcise. I know that the doctors and societal pressures in our country don't always make it an easy decision. And I know it must take a lot of courage to come to this forum, after having circumcised your son, to learn more about it. I hope that others who made the decison to circ their children will also reconsider and not circ their next child and help educate others.

And I know that you did not consciously intend to hurt your son. No mama ever truly wants to bring harm to her baby. But this is the problem with circumcision in the US...it's so commonplace that people don't even realize it's an extremely painful and traumatic procedure, not to mention the long-term damage and effects it can cause. I guess people assume that since it's legal and everyone is doing it and even encouraging it (like doctors whom we are supposed to trust!) then it must be okay.

[Acksiom]

Originally Posted by Revamp

How exactly?

As I said, cheaper goods and services, which includes construction and infrastructure in general. Even men who ruin themselves working in these areas still benefit from the similar self-sacrifice of other men like them.

We could easily pay more in exchange for greater safety in mining, logging, sanitation, construction, linework, and the other dirtiest, most dangerous and deadliest jobs, 95% to 99% of the positions in which are filled by men. But the men in those positions would also pay the higher prices for goods, services, and infrastructure that would result.

Originally Posted by Revamp

Overall considered in net higher prices (which I am not sure about really, we do not seem to have either them or circumcision here in Britain) are far less "Beneficial" that preputal pleasure.

It is not a tradeoff of male erogenous pleasure for cheaper goods, services, and infrastructure; it is a tradeoff of the general objectification and devaluation of males in general in exchange for cheaper costs in those areas. The trivialization of male physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual integrity, and of harms done to same, is much more a consequence of that objectification and devaluation, although there is certainly a feedback system operating there to some extent.

And there is indeed still prepucectomy in britain; the rate is low, but not negligible, and while the british have criminalized at the national level the routine and ritual genital cutting of female minors (IIRC), like every other nation that has done so, they have still failed to properly extend that protection to little boys. Even nations where both male and female genital amputation are virtually unknown have criminalized the latter but continue to fail to criminalize the former.

I would not assume -- if I correctly take that impression from your comments -- that men are meaningfully better off in britain. For example, Fathers 4 Justice didn't start over here in the usa; it was founded on your side of the pond, and has engaged in far more extreme activism than anything that men's issues advocates have accomplished anywhere else, such as the condom-bombing of the PM during a parliamentary session.

I will also point at the continued open existence of the Gilgal society as a symptomatic demonstration of my thesis applying to the Green and Pleasant Land.

[Revamp]

Originally Posted by Acksiom

As I said, cheaper goods and services, which includes construction and infrastructure in general. Even men who ruin themselves working in these areas still benefit from the similar self-sacrifice of other men like them.

I suppose.

We could easily pay more in exchange for greater safety in mining, logging, sanitation, construction, linework, and the other dirtiest, most dangerous and deadliest jobs, 95% to 99% of the positions in which are filled by men. But the men in those positions would also pay the higher prices for goods, services, and infrastructure that would result.

I suppose once again that is a cultural thing: here in Britain we have construction work but as far as logging, mining and linework and such well, that just tends not to be done here.

As for sanitation, well that actually seems to be a 50-50 spread as far as I can tell. Near to 100% are migrant workers though and that is another issue entirely.

It is not a tradeoff of male erogenous pleasure for cheaper goods, services, and infrastructure; it is a tradeoff of the general objectification and devaluation of males in general in exchange for cheaper costs in those areas. The trivialization of male physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual integrity, and of harms done to same, is much more a consequence of that objectification and devaluation, although there is certainly a feedback system operating there to some extent.

I can agree with you here.

And there is indeed still prepucectomy in britain; the rate is low, but not negligible,

No, honestly, it really, really is.

In religious groups it is far, far higher of course but as far as secular circumcisions of healthy infants are concerned it never happens at all.

There are too many circumcisions performed for supposedly medical reasons later on in life but that is not quite the same.

and while the british have criminalized at the national level the routine and ritual genital cutting of female minors (IIRC), like every other nation that has done so, they have still failed to properly extend that protection to little boys.

Oh but you make it sound so simple...

As aforementioned overwhelmingly the circumcisers are those from religious groups. In Britain we have rather excessive views when it comes to tolerance and many seem to feel that even if they are disregarding others rights to do so religious views must be cherished and held above liberty.

Accordingly if a policy is proposed which seems to specifically target Muslims or Jews and an uproar ensues then that policy is dropped. See: banning Halal and Kosher slaughter.

Sadly secularism has failed when it comes to circumcision.

[QUOTE]Even nations where both male and female genital amputation are virtually unknown have criminalized the latter but continue to fail to criminalize the former.[/QOTE]

Finland, Finland, Finland... The place where I quite want to be...

I would not assume -- if I correctly take that impression from your comments -- that men are meaningfully better off in britain. For example, Fathers 4 Justice didn't start over here in the usa; it was founded on your side of the pond, and has engaged in far more extreme activism than anything that men's issues advocates have accomplished anywhere else, such as the condom-bombing of the PM during a parliamentary session.

LOL, I recall that... Made me laugh quite a bit. They could have aimed a little better though...

As for Fathers 4 Justice well you do have a point there but I can only agree with you partially: although the courts do favour women I put it to you that this is more a consequence of motherhood being heavily, and perhaps somewhat erroneously, idealised and focused upon by Western Culture, rather than some negative view of men.

I agree with your overall point, partially at least, but I am just not sure about the evidence you are using.

I will also point at the continued open existence of the Gilgal society as a symptomatic demonstration of my thesis applying to the Green and Pleasant Land.

Hmm?

Not quite sure what you mean there. "They" certainly do exist but as far as I know it is not so much a society as a tiny club of individuals with lots of ambition and not a little money.

They are not going to acheieve anything though, at least not here.

[Greenie]

Originally Posted by Blu Razzberri

I did it for a number of other reasons. I was raised in a family where that was just part of what went on. I did explore the other side as well, but what pushed me to do it was ultimately knowing that if he had complications, it would be a surgery for him instead.

Yes, mama.. I understand exactly what happened. DH's sister tried to talk me into it when I was about to research it.. In my family we didn't do it, but it was never widely discussed. This last sentance though... "ultimately knowing that if he had complications, it would be a surgery for him instead." He DID have surgery. My Dad of all people tried to tell me that if we didn't circ him, he might have to get it done later in life, which would mean pain and suffering. But that pain and suffering would still be there. As a baby he doesn't understand why the pain, or what is happening. As a child, teenager, or man, he does know exactly what is going on.

I dunno.. I think that if I was this sensitive about the subject, I probably wouldn't browse this part of the board much.. Not that you shouldn't.. It just seems like a button for you.

[Lula's Mom]

I think she should... She's gathering information and getting closer to realizing that circumcision is not only not necessary, but harmful (it takes away a healthy, functioning body part!) For instance, learning just now that infant circumcision is, indeed, surgery. Surgery without adequate anesthesia, or pain relief afterward. Surgery without... true medical necessity. It's a hard thing to learn, we know.

I think I should also add, Blu Razzberri, that there just arent the "complications" involved with being intact that the myths would lead you to believe. Having a foreskin is normal and natural. It's like having all your parts as a woman. Do infections sometimes arise? Sure, as they also do in the genitals (and eyes, ears, toenails...) of girls and women. They are treatable in either sex, and are certainly no reason to go cutting off healthy body parts. It's easy to have an intact boy! Easy to clean (just wipe the outside!) Easier than cleaning baby girls, even.