circing = abuse?

[anothermama]

I *hope* this is ok............

I want to talk about your thoughts on circing being abuse.

Having faced this issue and having had a boy, that's how I see it. I'm aware that the term is harsh and loaded, but I don't know a better what to express how bad I feel the act of circing is.

I believe there is grey area. There are always those parents who just don't know and don't learn until it's too late. I don't believe those parents are bad or are willfully harming their kids.

But I think we've all run into the parents out there who, as soon as they hear you are anti circ, they say "Yeah yeah yeah, I know all the pros and cons, but we decided circing was best for OUR son for XYZ reason". I think that's abuse.


So, talk to me about why circing is abuse or why it's not.

[sadkitty]

Well, which other healthy, functional, normal body part are we allowed to amputate at birth wothout someone claiming abuse? i wrote something along these lines a while back, i'll see if i can dig it up.

[mothragirl]

i think circ is sexually abusive.

[sadkitty]

Circumcision is NOT a "parenting choice" otherwise it woukd also be perfectly acceptable to surgically sculpt our newborn daughter's labia to "look like mommy" or prevent utis, or because someone had a bad experience with our intact genitals.

If someone strapped you, spread-eagled, against your will , to a board naked...it would be abuse

If someone forcibly peeled back parts of your sex organs that were fused together .... it would be abuse

If somone forced a blunt object INTO your genitals (the glans is an internal organ)... it would be abuse

If someone cut, crushed or tied off up to 50% your genital skin that was packed with nerves and blood vessals... it would be abuse

If someone only gave you a pacifier dipped in sugar and maybe some tylenol for the aforementioned pain... it would be abuse

If someone slipped you a roofie before they did this would it make it okay because you "wouldn't remember it anyway?"

If it "really didn't hurt" anyway, would you ever miss this VERY sensitive part of you genitals?


These are legitimate questions, as this is what happens to a defensless newborn every 28 minutes in the U.S.A. Over 80% of the rest of the world is intact.

[kaylee18]

Of course it is abuse.

However, using that term is not a helpful way to get our point across in trying to convince parents not to circumcise.

It may be helpful in getting sympathetic legislators to defund, restrict, or ban it.
Even for that purpose, though, I would say there are better ways to invite them to listen to us.

Until the prevailing opinion sways far more to our favor, I do not think the promotion of terms such as "abuse" or "mutilation" will cause opinion to shift in our direction. They cause too much of an inflammatory, withdrawing, defensive response, at the precise time that dialogue has to remain open for our side to be heard.

[TigerTail]

It is what it is, regardless of justifications.

[Minky]

Of course it is abuse.

What you need to ask is, who is the abuser.

If the parent's had no idea that they were offering their son up for abuse--ie my mother wasn't given a choice, it was just done to my brother's, no concent form, and she never questioned it despite being a non vax-er, nearly 30 years ago! I do not concider her the abuser, she had no idea waht was being done. The doctor knew, he is the abuser.

I think there can be alot said about parents failing to protect there children. My mother failed to protect me from sexual abuse by a friend of the family. I concider the person who abused me my abuser, my mother failed to protect me but she was not the one abusing me.

I thik the parent would be more guilty and could possibly be called the abuser if he or she knew the anti-circ info and still offered the child up for abuse.

[Greenie]

I do. I think that it's abuse. My definition of abuse is doing something that harms another person.. In this day and age, parents must be held accountable for their actions. I notice that there is an excuse that is given by many people any time you talk to them (in a non-threatening way or not) that "It's your opinion," even when what you are saying is supported by medical and science fact.

At this point, I'm going to start writing to Congress about this. Seriously. Why is FGM illegal and "crazy" when Circ (THE SAME EXACT PROCEDURE) isn't?

It blows my open mind.

Whether the baby remembers it or not, whether you "knew better" or not, I think that as a parent, you need to make sure that every decision that you make is an informed one. I take the time to research.. I make the effort to actually read something about the impact I'm making on my child.

Anyway.. I'm preaching to the choir.

[~Kira~]

Circumcision is classified as Child Abuse and Aggravated Assault here in Canada by our national Children's Rights Council.

I agree with their position statement. I do find, when discussing the issue with people who do yet know the basic facts about it, that it is more productive to talk more about lack of medical recommendation, the need to protect fundamental human rights, the proven damage caused by circumcision and so on.




- Kira

[~Kira~]

Carrie -


You could also contact Matthew Hess and see about how you can assist with the MGM Bill. It sounds right up your alley and I know he'd appreciate your energy & help

Here's the link:
http://mgmbill.org/



- Kira

[sadkitty]

I am glad we can tell it like it is here. Although its not my primary aproach when talking circumcision with those who have not yet hurt their child, I do call it abuse when i think it will bring the right kind of attention.

I had to stop venturing to other "AP" parenting site recently. I can't take it .

[MamaKalena]

I agree that it's child abuse plain and simple or at the very least parental negligence (ignorance?) for those who say they "just didn't know."

What's scary to me is that these child abusers are our friends and neighbors. My neighbors are Jewish and have a son the same age as ours. DH's two best friends chose to circumcise their sons. These are educated people, one of whom is a nurse in post-partum! I usually consider myself as being fairly tolerent of others but I have such a hard time even liking these people anymore.

But like Kaylee said, using these terms will not help get people choose not to circumcise.

[Greenie]

Originally Posted by ~Kira~

Carrie -


You could also contact Matthew Hess and see about how you can assist with the MGM Bill. It sounds right up your alley and I know he'd appreciate your energy & help

Here's the link:
http://mgmbill.org/



- Kira

Thank you!! I'll get right on it.

BTW, I LOVE YOUR DDDDC!!!!!

[~Kira~]

Originally Posted by Greenie

Thank you!! I'll get right on it.

BTW, I LOVE YOUR DDDDC!!!!!

: Why, thanks!
Here's the inspiration for that:


Me at the Seattle Symposium last month



- Kira

[Greenie]

Originally Posted by ~Kira~

: Why, thanks!
Here's the inspiration for that:


Me at the Seattle Symposium last month



- Kira

Wow!! Cute.

[Revamp]

Good question actually, I would say yes.

Now does this mean that parents are abusers, or at least that they ordered this abuse? Well, yes.

They were indeed only wanting the best for their child and had no intentions to cause them any real harm, in the overwhelming majority of cases at least.

But could this be said of those who commited many other form of abuse? Most definetely.

So let us look at the definition and should circumcision meet it then it is and if not then it is not:

Main Entry: 1abuse
Pronunciation: &-'byüs
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French abus, from Latin abusus, from abuti to consume, from ab- + uti to use
1 : a corrupt practice or custom
2 : improper or excessive use or treatment : MISUSE <drug abuse> <abuse of tranquilizers>
3 obsolete : a deceitful act : DECEPTION
4 : language that condemns or vilifies usually unjustly, intemperately, and angrily
5 : physical maltreatment


a‧buse  /v. əˈbyuz; n. əˈbyus/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[v. uh-byooz; n. uh-byoos] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, a‧bused, a‧bus‧ing, noun
–verb (used with object)
1.to use wrongly or improperly; misuse: to abuse one's authority.
2.to treat in a harmful, injurious, or offensive way: to abuse a horse; to abuse one's eyesight.
3.to speak insultingly, harshly, and unjustly to or about; revile; malign.
4.to commit sexual assault upon.
5.Obsolete. to deceive or mislead.
–noun
6.wrong or improper use; misuse: the abuse of privileges.
7.harshly or coarsely insulting language: The officer heaped abuse on his men.
8.bad or improper treatment; maltreatment: The child was subjected to cruel abuse.
9.a corrupt or improper practice or custom: the abuses of a totalitarian regime.
10.rape or sexual assault.
11.Obsolete. deception.
—Idiom
12.abuse oneself, to masturbate.

[trmpetplaya]

Originally Posted by mothragirl

i think circ is sexually abusive.

Absolutely. I don't think it helps to change people's minds to come right out and call it abuse or sexual assault, but that's definitely what it is! Usually when talking to someone who thinks circumcision is normal I would ease into the topic and only go for the big guns if they wouldn't listen to reason... calling it abuse to someone like right off the bat that can cause them to shut down and not listen to anything else you may have to say ("crazy hippy"-type thinking).

I hope it's illegal sometime within the next 50 years at the latest... I wish it would be illegal within the next 50 days or, better yet, minutes... SECONDS! : back on earth though... : And the US considers itself to be so advanced *scoffing smily*

love and peace.

[njeb]

Originally Posted by kaylee18

Of course it is abuse.

However, using that term is not a helpful way to get our point across in trying to convince parents not to circumcise.

It may be helpful in getting sympathetic legislators to defund, restrict, or ban it.
Even for that purpose, though, I would say there are better ways to invite them to listen to us.

Until the prevailing opinion sways far more to our favor, I do not think the promotion of terms such as "abuse" or "mutilation" will cause opinion to shift in our direction. They cause too much of an inflammatory, withdrawing, defensive response, at the precise time that dialogue has to remain open for our side to be heard.

:
Circumcision is so accepted around here that someone once said to me years ago: "I think it's abusive NOT to circumcise!" I was rendered speechless. This happened 20+ years ago, before the functions of the foreskin were known. What would you have said?

[QueenOfThePride]

I don't think any parent intends to harm their child by circumcising him, but circumcision is still abuse.

[anothermama]

Originally Posted by kaylee18

Of course it is abuse.

However, using that term is not a helpful way to get our point across in trying to convince parents not to circumcise.

It may be helpful in getting sympathetic legislators to defund, restrict, or ban it.
Even for that purpose, though, I would say there are better ways to invite them to listen to us.

Until the prevailing opinion sways far more to our favor, I do not think the promotion of terms such as "abuse" or "mutilation" will cause opinion to shift in our direction. They cause too much of an inflammatory, withdrawing, defensive response, at the precise time that dialogue has to remain open for our side to be heard.

I completely agree..........and disagree.

On one hand, I see what you are saying. When peole honestly ask me "Well tell me what YOU think of circing" I will admit, I believe it's abusive. Which, of course, leads to whoever I'm talking with freaking out and blowing that up into something huge and shutting down.

On the other hand, if we don't start naming it what it is, it feel complacent. It feels dishonest, at least to me.

I'm not sure how to work around it.