I Can't Change Your Mind

[madmax]

I Can’t Change Your Mind

We can argue and fight
I can tell you I’m right
Convey all the facts
In a logical light
I can voice my opinion
till the end of all time
But one thing is certain
I can’t change your mind

I can put up a sign
In front of my fence
Begging for justice
and good common sense
And some will concur
And some remain blind
But one thing is certain
I can’t change your mind

We can all scream and yell
Till we’re blue in the face
About all the issues:
Religion to race
The reasons for war
Be they selfish or kind
One thing is certain
I can’t change your mind

I can show you it’s wrong
That it’s unjustified
I can show you the proof
That our leaders have lied
I can list all the facts
In a neat little line
But one thing is certain
I can’t change your mind

I can show you the pictures
I can tell you the cost
Appeal to your sense of
the resources lost
I can show you humanity
gone for all time
But one thing is certain
I can’t change your mind

-Madmax

I love my country but....

"We're going to make a difference in the world," says Clark.

That, too, is what Amaya hoped to do, but after two hours of standing in the bitter cold, no one has warmed to her message.

Until suddenly an older man, Bill Milan from nearby Martins Ferry, his little granddaughter in tow, breaks through the small circle gathered around Amaya and says, "Listen to her -- she's right, you know."

A veteran of the Korean War, Milan says it makes no sense that "so many innocents have to die to get one man.

[madmax]

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[lamplighter]

thank you madmax for making me think....

my heart is heavy with the toll this is taking on us all (and on the planet)- for we really are all the same - all one.

Beth

[Meiri]

Why would you assume that those who don't share your position 100% aren't thinking?

I'm certainly thinking. I'm just not drawing All the same conclusions as you. Some yes, All no.

I'm not interested in slapping anybody around the ears. I have my doubts about the justness of This war, but I have yet to have my questions about if Any war is Ever just answered, or discussed much for that matter.

So who's "defending a position"?

[candiland]

I really wonder if....
if "prowar" people lived through the atrocities of war, had their children killed, and their limbs blown off, if they would still be "prowar".
***deeeeep thoughts, with Candice***
LOL

[Meiri]

Hilary,

I guess I was responding to the main tone of this forum, which is overwhelming peace at any price, or so it comes across. I wasn't taking it That personally.

Where in my family my questions have me as the peacenik, here I feel like I'm cast as pro-war. In both circumstances what I do is ask uncomfortable questions. It's a very wierd feeling.

Candiland,

I really wonder if....
if "antiwar" people lived through the atrocities of a government that would kill your family including infants for even trying to leave for America, had their husbands and brothers killed or disappeared, and their limbs broken, their bodies stabbed for being of a different sect, their entire village gassed, if they would still be "antiwar" if the end result was a chance for change and FREEDOM...

That remains to be seen of course, and I'm not holding my breath that the hypocracy of the current administration won't make a mockery of the pr goal of freedom for Iraqis, ...nothing ventured nothing gained. America's freedom came in war too, lest we forget that little historical fact.

See what I mean?:

[batmommy]

Originally posted by Meiri

I really wonder if....
if "antiwar" people lived through the atrocities of a government that would kill your family including infants for even trying to leave for America, had their husbands and brothers killed or disappeared, and their limbs broken, their bodies stabbed for being of a different sect, their entire village gassed, if they would still be "antiwar" if the end result was a chance for change and FREEDOM...

That remains to be seen of course, and I'm not holding my breath that the hypocracy of the current administration won't make a mockery of the pr goal of freedom for Iraqis, ...nothing ventured nothing gained. America's freedom came in war too, lest we forget that little historical fact.

See what I mean?: [/B]

well, in the united states we live under a government that has colonized and disregarded many peoples. i know many people that have lived in countries (including the US) where the women, children and men were treated subhuman. i fail to see how bombing innocent people (for much longer than we were "at war") is necessarily freedom. i wait with bated breath for what the government of this country will do for the people of iraq (and palestine and so many south american countries where we are destroying lives, etc). are we going to break down the country and leave them starving and homeless as per our usual modus operandi?

[Meiri]

I don't argue that this country hasn't done some pretty $hitty things in the past, or even ongoing, but ...

*We* are not bombing anybody in Palestine. We don't have military in any countries in SA that I'm aware of either, a propaganda program(SOA) isn't the same, though I agree it does cause harm.

I'm getting tired of the attitude that our military is deliberately targeting civilians. They are not. Shyte happens, it's a war zone. Intent Does matter. Yes the person is just as dead, but intent does matter else why would our laws distinguish between first degree murder, second degree murder, manslaugher, and negligent homicide? Same goes for international law. There's a difference between "oops" and deliberately gassing entire villages.

We watch CNN and MSNBC mostly, as well as our local. They report those "oops" incidents. Do you think Al Jaseera is reporting how Iraqi soldiers were shooting civilians trying to flee? Do you think they reported the old woman being rescued? I wonder if they're carrying the stories of the people showing their scars and where they were imprisoned by the Baath for years, now that they won't be shot for expressing an opinion in public.

It seems to me that if the news is reporting our ERRORS then maybe they're not as biased as they're being made out to be. Bias to me means they're hiding the accidents, I surely didn't learn of the reporters' hotel being shot at here. That error was on the mainstream news.

Where are the threads discussing whether US soldiers should have risked their lives or not to rescue an old woman from the bridge where she was laying injured and in a crossfire? That wasn't the only such event...where's the acknowledgement of that sort of thing? Where's acknowledgement that the medical branch of the military treats all casualties they find no matter which side they're on? The Brits are bringing in food aid in Basrah, where's that been discussed? (it's leading to chaos, but they're trying...)

I'm going to bed, we have things to do later today when the sun is up.

[madmax]

Meiri

In response to comments made about news reporting being in some way biased, and reporting only bad news, all I can say is :
Serve it on toast!

The so called "liberal media" outlets are predominantly owned by Multinational Corporations that are in fact, some of the biggest producers of weaponry used in this war. Using this loaded term "liberal" in describing them, is an ironic way to hide the benefactors true identity.

It is well documented that the US has a very cozy relationship with Israel, hence the great amount of mistrust of the US felt by the Arab world.

We are as a people are spoon fed only a tiny bit of real information about the terror we have unleashed, and are currently unleashing in Iraq and elsewhere.

I'm sure is that if we ACTUALLY knew what our CIA, FBI and other covert organizations were doing, we as a people would be so outraged that we would demand that they be eliminated, or at least heavily scrutinized. And actual disclosure is something quite foreign to this government that is supposedly of, by and for the people.

Regardless, I am quite certain that our military is not deliberately targeting civilians. Most of our fighting men and women are regular Joe's and Janes that joined the military for an opportunity to get educated, and possibly have a better life. The only problem is that if we weren't in Iraq in the first F'n place, none of these atrocities would be happening.

[sohj]

Originally posted by candiland
I really wonder if....
if "prowar" people lived through the atrocities of war, had their children killed, and their limbs blown off, if they would still be "prowar".
***deeeeep thoughts, with Candice***
LOL

Unfortunately, this doesn't always work. Look at places that have been at war for decades. War becomes a way of life and the longer you spend "at war", the harder it is to have "peace".

Look at Sharon. He is such a hawk and he is old enough to have experienced "war" and simply (not-so-simple) atrocity for years. Yet he continues to provoke.

(And I don't think it is going to happen here; but I am flinching from thoughtless people elsewhere when I say PLEASE do not think that I am castigating the entire nation of Israel for Sharon...my beef is with him and his cronies.)