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having issues with DH being circ'd - Page 5

post #81 of 173
dnr3301, I totally agree with your entire post. Thank you for saying it so clearly.

Karen, I see better where you are coming from. Thanks for explaining. I think that where I see it differently it that you are drawing a line between the person and the penis, stating that it's more about the person.

Well, true, but it's not so simple a dichotomy IMO. My DH is a whole wonderful person whom I love dearly and am proud to be married to him. But he is profoundly impacted by the abuse of his circ, and not just the mechanicals of sex. His psychology and emotional selves were severely traumatized as well and his penis. So I can't separate the pieces so easily.

I mean, I'm not really able to divide out what parts of me are sexual and what aren't - it's all a part of my identity as a human.

I said before that something that was major for me to understand was that he can't even understand a normal sexual response because he's never had one. It's outside of his sexual paradigm. I don't think he's ever actually orgasmed. I think he simply ejaculates and that's all he knows about that pleasure. This is directly because he has very little left of his erogenous tissue. This is a penis problem that affects the whole man I love.

He used to lose patience with me because he didn't even realize what I was expecting to experience and I lost patience with him because I expected that he knew what sex was like. But he doesn't.

Over the years we're learning to work together about dealing with drastically different sexual responses. Even that has been difficult because he is extremely closed to talking graphically about sex in a personal sense. He talks like a guy a lot - in that locker room sort of way, but once it turns personal about us he gets very defensive and makes nervous jokes to break the tension.

Is that person or penis? I think both. The person is emotionally scarred b/c of what was done to his penis. So I can't draw that line.

So to rephrase something I said before, there are certainly degrees of this. My past lover was very sexually open and loving. I had a wonderful experience with him and am grateful that my first was such a caring partner. He was circed. Not so thoroughly as DH, but still mutilated.

Even though my first experience was wonderful, I know that he was still mutilated, and not experiencing what was his birthright about his body - even though it wasn't as extreme as DH's handicap.

I'm really uncomfortable with any arguement that we should minimize the impact of circ if it's "not that bad". I'm uncomfortable about that thinking in any sense - like I often hear that if a child is only spanked rarely that it's not abuse because other kids are beaten daily. Some people even claim that it's offensive to call spanking abuse because it waters down the word from when it describes emotional torture. But if abuse isn't abuse if there is worse abuse in the world, then by that logic no one has been abused if they weren't holocaust victims or tortured by a sadistic serial killer.

Can we all agree that any amount of mutilation and loss of innate sexual feeling qualifies as a problem? Can we then take that further that any effect circ has on a sexual relationship - even if it's just a little - is still a violation of the sexuality of the people involved - and stop making disctictions about the degree and whether it qualifies as a problem? I think it's a disctraction taking away from our solidarity about identifying a and speaking with one voice about an atrocity.
post #82 of 173
Quote:
I don't think he's ever actually orgasmed. I think he simply ejaculates and that's all he knows about that pleasure. This is directly because he has very little left of his erogenous tissue.
Would you mind elaborating on this? I always thought that the only time men orgasmed was at ejaculation. Am I missing something? I have never been with an intact man so I fully admit there is a lot I don't know.
post #83 of 173
Aria - I'm not trying to draw a line between person and penis; I think they are intrinsicly entwined.

And I'll repeat that my post was intended to address the original posters, who did NOT have the degree of difficulty experienced by you and your husband, or others who posted after. They merely expressed curiosity about what the "other side" was like, and regret they had never experienced it.

I'll admit that i have a hard time understanding what you are going through, because I have never experienced it. It is mind-boggling and horrible that such a degree of disfunction can occur from a circumcision. I'd never heard that before reading this thread.

This is obviously a highly emotional subject about which *I* am not highly emotional. So, it's time for me to bow out of this thread.
post #84 of 173
Karen, I do appreciate where you are coming from, and I'm glad to hear that you have not experienced this issue to the level some of us are describing. I really hope you're not leaving this thread because of me - I'm sorry if my back-and-forth was too strong.

Sometimes things are hard to see or understand until we take it to a hyperbolic extreme so that the nature of the thing we are looking at becomes more obvious. I hope that the fact that I (and several others here) are actually experiencing such a hyperbole will clarify this problem better to those who are having only minor circ-related issues, but can't quite identify them. Maybe they can do something about it before it gets out of hand.


Gemelos, from what I understand, the original purpose of RIC was to remove as much sensual feeling but still leave the ability to procreate unaltered. IOW, do just enough damage to stop sexual pleasure without ending the species.

Also, I know from other men with full functioning, that they can actually experience orgams and train themselves not to ejaculate until they want to. Apparently, it takes time and concentration, but is possible. For those men who have learned to control it, the sensations are very different, and they describe ejaculation as pleasurable in it's own right, but in a different way than orgams.

So it does seem plausible to me that the two functions - orgams and ejaculation - are well connected, but not the same thing.

In my observations of DH, he shows no signs whatsoever of orgamsing. Ever. No build up of energy, no muscle contractions, no point of concentrating only on that feeling, no change in heartrate or facial expressions. Nothing. He comes with just a little stimualtion and then it's over. So I believe that he only experiences the equivalent of minor arousal, and finds ejaculation pleasurable and equates that to orgams.

But IMO, he has never gotten to that point. He doesn't understand when I describe it, and can't describe any sensations of orgams himself.

I hope that explains better what I was getting at... DS calls!
post #85 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by gemelos View Post
Would you mind elaborating on this? I always thought that the only time men orgasmed was at ejaculation. Am I missing something? I have never been with an intact man so I fully admit there is a lot I don't know.
Most people aren't aware that just as women can orgasm and ejaculate seperately (many women don't ejaculate at all), so can men. Ejaculation and orgasm, while usually simultaneous, are not the same thing. Some men are able to have multiple Os without ejaculating.
post #86 of 173
Ok, this is amazing to me. I have never heard of such a thing. Both being able to orgasm and not ejaculate and ejaculate without orgasm. I really want to learn more about this. So is orgasm without ejaculation a normal with intact men? I have asked dh before if sex even feels good before ejaculation and from what I understand it is just a nice feeling but not anything amazing. It sounds like circ'ed men just work towards ejaculation and that is their main sexual feeling. I am so glad we are talking about this because I am just clueless.
post #87 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by gemelos View Post
It sounds like circ'ed men just work towards ejaculation and that is their main sexual feeling. I am so glad we are talking about this because I am just clueless.
Yes. And I think those who initated RIC back in the day were exactly trying to achieve this.

I don't believe (from what I've heard - not that I could know) that O and E are easily separated in intact men. I think those who are interested in controlling it practice it. I have heard this from intact men, and read in (IIRC) the kama sutra translations that it was a spiritual practice undertaken to achieve hightened states, and to conserve life energy lost from E.

It was long ago that I read this - I don't know if I have that just right...
post #88 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by aira View Post
Also, I know from other men with full functioning, that they can actually experience orgams and train themselves not to ejaculate until they want to. Apparently, it takes time and concentration, but is possible. For those men who have learned to control it, the sensations are very different, and they describe ejaculation as pleasurable in it's own right, but in a different way than orgams.

So it does seem plausible to me that the two functions - orgams and ejaculation - are well connected, but not the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CryPixie83 View Post
Most people aren't aware that just as women can orgasm and ejaculate seperately (many women don't ejaculate at all), so can men. Ejaculation and orgasm, while usually simultaneous, are not the same thing. Some men are able to have multiple Os without ejaculating.
I've never come across this being discussed anywhere before, but my circed dh is able to have 'multiples'. The way he describes it is a lot like I describe my orgasms...having a release, but not letting go of the tension completely, then letting it build again. I suppose the difference is that he generally ejaculates, at least a little, with each orgasm. Generally, two is his limit...but when we were first together, I remember him getting 4-5 orgasms in one session.

Jen
post #89 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdx.mothernurture View Post
I've never come across this being discussed anywhere before, but my circed dh is able to have 'multiples'. The way he describes it is a lot like I describe my orgasms...having a release, but not letting go of the tension completely, then letting it build again. I suppose the difference is that he generally ejaculates, at least a little, with each orgasm. Generally, two is his limit...but when we were first together, I remember him getting 4-5 orgasms in one session.

Jen

My first (circed) partner was also able to do this, and could have powerful orgasms. It's my assumption that most circed men orgasm to some degree. I assume that those with very extensive removal of erogenous tissue are the ones who possibly never O.

But again, these are just my speculations... FWIW.
post #90 of 173

DH actually chose to get circ'ed after we were married!

Yes, you read correctly, as horrible as it is! This is such an awesome thread, I had not thought about circ. affects our sexual relationship. My DH decided to have the surgery even though I didn't think it was a good idea. It was very important to him so I stopped trying to dissuade him. I wish I could have shown him this thread though since he decided to get circ'ed for sexual reasons. I would have tried harder to dissuade him If I had read this first!

The recovery was horrible, although I think the doctor considered it pretty normal. There was alot of sweling and bruising, its so sad to think of this being done to a little baby. The worst part for my husband was how worried he was that he would be deformed when he saw all the swelling and bruising in such a sensitive area (physically and emotionaly). To me he is a walking anti circ advertisement!

I have a question since so many people on this thread know quite abit about the sexual effects of circumcision. My husband decided to get the surgery because he felt like he didn't get enough sensation on the head of his penis, like the foreskin just stayed over it all the time instead of moving over it. Normally though the foreskin was easily retractable when not having intercourse. So I don't really understand his theory, but he used to take 45 minutes to climax and now it only takes 20 minutes or sometimes less. Anyone know why that would be? I don't know if its an emotional difference or what, but he still takes awhile and has to concentrate quite hard. I would appreciate any ideas and HIS STORY IS IN NO WAY A PLUG FOR GETTING CIRC'ED! I just would like to get some help for this since 20 min. is still to much for me, especially with the stronger thrusting.
post #91 of 173
The tantric thing reabsorbs the ejaculate into the bladder; there is ejaculation, it is just internal. I don't think that has anything to do with circ'd or intact status.
post #92 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post
I used to have this feeling but I got over it and it passed. For me it was a sign that I was spending too much time thinking on circumcision and visiting this board. The serenity prayer works. Give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Life is never fair, but you can change some things. Use that anger to change circumcision of new babies.
The serenity prayer is my daily mantra. It speaks volumes for every aspect of life.

I often too wonder what it would be like with an intact man. There was one guy that *might* have been intact, but I never knew for sure. All I knew was it was sooo different with him-

I think the most upsetting thing for me is that my dh (others might be different) has to be fast and rough to finish. We cannot have that slow soft sex- he simply needed that fast pounding sex to get there- even with that were talking a good 20+ minutes of the actual act itself. Hes not the 2 minute man, never EVER has been. And I am the first woman hes been with- even at the begining of our relationship- he needed that rough stuff. I can only assume that is a direct result of his circ and the keritization of the glans.

Your not alone...

(((hugs)))

Beth
post #93 of 173
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post #94 of 173
Sometimes, men will be almost a bit hypersensitive initially after circumcision, but as time passes and the glans begins to keratinize (dry & thicken) sensitivity progressively decreases.

linguistmama, your husband could have had a shorter frenulum or his foreskin might have been a little on the snug side when erect...either of which could probably have been helped by some gentle stretching or a topical steroid cream.

Jen
post #95 of 173
I have a question about the soft slow sex. Dh can do that for a time but he would never be able to orgasm that way. Are you all saying that intact men can do it soft and slow the entire time and still orgasm that way?
post #96 of 173
"How long ago was the circumcision?"

It was 3 years ago and he still climaxes after about 20 minutes which is how it was soon after the circumcision. No matter what we do during sex it still takes this long, despite more or less exciting sex. The only time he comes sooner is if we have gone for quite awhile without sex, like when I was pregnant.

"PS: Linguist? What language(s)??"

Portuguese and Spanish. I was an exchange student in Brasil and DH is from Mexico.
post #97 of 173
:
post #98 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdx.mothernurture View Post
Sometimes, men will be almost a bit hypersensitive initially after circumcision, but as time passes and the glans begins to keratinize (dry & thicken) sensitivity progressively decreases.

linguistmama, your husband could have had a shorter frenulum or his foreskin might have been a little on the snug side when erect...either of which could probably have been helped by some gentle stretching or a topical steroid cream.

Jen
I got to thinking this might be the issue when I was at lunch after I last posted...

So sorry that he felt it necessary to circ.
post #99 of 173
OK, So I think I'm finally able to understand what's been eating at me about those who are bothered by this thread...

If you don't mind sharing, is your discomfort with our saying that we want to experience intact sex that you think we don't want our partners? Or do you think that we want to cheat? I'm not sure I get it.

To me, my desire for whole sex is part of my humanity and personhood - not about disliking DH or wanting a different partner. I see it as a birthright that I've been denied due to circumstance - just like the partner I chose has been. It's a deep part of me (my sexuality) missing - just like DH's - not a desire to eshew my DH.

I want him - whole. Just can't have it.


If you guys would please explain what's so disturbing here, I'd love to know and have to opportunity to explore it.

Thanks!
post #100 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by aira View Post
If you guys would please explain what's so disturbing here, I'd love to know and have to opportunity to explore it.

Thanks!
OK, I'm going to try to do this without pissing anybody off :

It took me a while to figure out what was bothering me. At first it was the whole idea that intact sex must be better, somehow, that the grass is greener, etc, and that you/they/she must be missing out by never being with an intact man. And in my experience, that just isn't true.

Now, though, I understand the problem is deeper for some, and although that seemed to be the original "issue" of the thread, the posts that followed brought up different issues.

I am still puzzled by the women who carry so much sadness/anger re: their DH's circ. I guess - because of my life experience or just because that's the way I've always been - I've learned to accept that things are just the way they are, and why put so much energy into something you can't change? (I'm thinking specifically about the poster(s) who said she cries just thinking about her DH's circ.)

I know it's not the equivalent, but I don't understand it any more than someone mourning the fact that their partner's finger was cut off in a schoolyard accident. Yes, it's horrible, and yes we wish it never happened, and yes, even, it might affect the things he is able to do or how he functions, but why not deal with the fact that it happened and move on? Figure out how you can, realistically, make the situation better, and direct your energy toward that.

IMO, there is very little to be gained by anger directed toward DH's parents/doctors/society for something that happened 20 or 30 or more years ago. The world was a different place then, and his parents aren't you, and you wouldn't make that choice...
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