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Judaism and origins ~ spinoff thread - Page 6

post #101 of 105
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Originally Posted by mamaverdi View Post
Clearly it was to make a point. But I found the point to be rude.
I'm sorry you found it to be so.

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Rude in that you are comparing the Soviets keeping of their history (incomplete, deluded, missing all sorts of abuses) to the Jews keeping of their own history?
Jews don't traditionally "keep" their own history. Jews have not traditionally recorded history for its own sake. There were very, very few Jews who prior to the 19th centruy who can be called historicans, I'm not even talking aobut drawing distinctions between so-called scientific history and older forms of history like chronicles. I'm talking recordation and publication of narratives of past events. There just isn't a lot recorded. Jews use historical events in ahistorical ways--in forming laws and legal traditions, in liturgies, but not in narratives.

Soviets used history in ahistorical ways--in creating propoganda.

Or is this merely another veiled accusation of anti-semitism because I've had the temerity to use a comparison you didn't like?

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I'm glad you didn't intend it to be rude, but be that as it may, I still found it to be rude.
I'm sorry you found my valid point offensive.

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What the Soviets did to the Jews was also not recorded in their history books. Or recorded proudly and horribly.
Yes. And?
post #102 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by BinahYeteirah View Post
Heck, the term "historical fact" may be an oxymoron! I have faith that all of these things will be cleared up for us in the future, G-d willing in the near future.
Well, I think many historical facts can be considered true. It's the conclusions one reaches and the facts one chooses to emphasize and ultimately the language used to express them that make the difference,

For example, one otherwise decent history survey text I've read, in it's section on WWII betrays its Western orientation and the subtle disregard in which the author holds the people of the "Eastern Bloc" when he states that Hitler murdered six million Jews. A few paragraphs later he states that under Stalin ten million "souls perished." Active voice turns to passive, murder turns to perish. Just less impact on the reader.

I haven't read this Goddess book but it seems that it is using as you (or someone?) said comparitive religion combined with a bit of scripture to draw conclusions about idolatry in the temple. To you or I it seems obvious that this was a private error that never reached the public eye.

So I guess the historical fact is "a wife of Solomon was in possession of idolatrous materials.

Too bad there is no interesting information there at one. You place a message of mussar onto it, a caution of things to be wary of--a traditionally Jewish approach. DaryLLL approaches it from a more scientific POV. (Please note that by "scientific" I don't mean truer. I mean different.. Better for some things, worse for others.)
post #103 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BelovedBird View Post
We are not talking about "CE judaism". We are talking about both CE and BCE judaism.
Judaism is and was monotheistic. Yes, you are apparently denying that in your above statement.
Ah, I think I see the disconnect. I was talking about pre-BCE "Judaism." You, singular (not "we"), are talking about both BCE and CE, a history spanning approx 3600 years.

I for one, see no evidence, despite the writings eventually collected and made into canon (that the huge majority of the population of course, had no access to, nor literacy skills to read), that the pre-BCE religions of Palestine were in any way monolithic (note this is a different word than monotheistic). I see some evidence the pre-BCE "Judaism" was Yahwistic in Judah. Particularly in Jerusalem, particularly during the time of Josiah and afterwards. Yet, throughout the region, including Samaria and Israel, Yahweh was worshipped as a consort of Asherah, as one of all the "host" of heaven. No matter how the prophets warned and preached, no matter how this or that king would attempt to consolidate for political reasons, or to have pilgrims send all their first fruits down south to the elite Levites, the population as a whole stuck tenaciously to their Asherah and other household gods (see Rachael and Laban http://www.wwnorton.com/college/engl...ar/02essay.htm , also see Michal's casual use of a teraphim to protect King David).

Just as the official history of Christianity is told by Catholic doctrine, so is the official story of "Judaism" being told. The Cath. doctrine goes that Jesus established Catholicism, while archeological evidence now tells us there were many Christianities that were very diverse in the first 4 CE centuries, and the "winners" got to eventually declare what was true C'ianity and what was heresy. Similarly, archeological and extra-Biblical literary evidence (documents, cunieforms and stele of neighboring cultures, or of Hebrews in Egypt, etc) clearly shows that the "Judaisms" of the BCE period were quite different than what was and is practiced later.

Even the word "Judaism" is misleading. It of course, refers to the religion of the Judahites. Much of the canon was collected by the Jerusalem elite while in exile in Babylon, as I understand it, and the documents that were used reflect this bias.

If priests, kings, elders and women were honoring Asherah, Tammuz, the Sun and all the Host of Heaven in the Temple in Ezekiel's time, where was Judaism? Who was strictly monotheistic and where did they worship "properly?"
post #104 of 105
Too bad. you just don't get it. And here you go again contardicting jewish women on their own religion.
Jews and Judaism are two different things. Just because jews worship something other than Hashem (No Yaweh here!) does not mean that is not what Judaism is. Jews direguard laws all the time- jews are buddist, jews are christians (as evidenced on this thread), jews are pagans, that doesn't make those things judaism.
post #105 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by tie-dyed View Post
Jews don't traditionally "keep" their own history. Jews have not traditionally recorded history for its own sake. There were very, very few Jews who prior to the 19th centruy who can be called historicans, I'm not even talking aobut drawing distinctions between so-called scientific history and older forms of history like chronicles. I'm talking recordation and publication of narratives of past events. There just isn't a lot recorded.
I disagree. I think all peoples keep their own history. Anyone who can put pen to paper has kept in some senses a history. Personal journals, business logs, inscriptions in holy books, one's own library with books marked in is a piece of history.

I also disagree that there isn't a lot recorded. I think more likely, there isn't a lot that wasn't destroyed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tie-dyed View Post
Jews use historical events in ahistorical ways--in forming laws and legal traditions, in liturgies, but not in narratives.

Soviets used history in ahistorical ways--in creating propoganda.
The part that I found to be rude, was that I felt you were in fact connecting the two: Jews use history as Soviets used history: in creating propoganda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tie-dyed View Post
Or is this merely another veiled accusation of anti-semitism because I've had the temerity to use a comparison you didn't like?
I don't make veiled accusations about anti-Semitism. If I felt you were being anti-Semitic, I would have either reported you, or said so straight out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tie-dyed View Post
I'm sorry you found my valid point offensive.
See, I didn't find you to be making a valid point. I found you to be making a snide remark. You have many valid points you could make, but the statement: "Or Soviet history from Soviet sources..." is not one of them.
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