OK, mayne I should not have done this, but it worked

[boysrus]

Or, I should say, it is working.

We had my nieces kids staying wth us. Her almost 4 year old has daily(often more than daily) temper tantrums that can last over an hour. I did the positive thing, the put him in another room and ask him if he was done thing, all sorts of things. Then, he started having massive tantrums during quiet. We had five little boys, six and under in our house, so quiet time is a big deal. And now our quiet time was stolem from us. So, I told him that if he had a tantrum during quiet time, he would not get any exras the rest of the day. Extras were things like doing cool crafts, playing outside, watching tv, etc. So, he went extra free for about three days, then never had another quiet time tantrum.

FAst forward a week or two. I am right now dealing with my 4 1/2 yo who will not consistently use the potty. He has shown us he can, but sometimes he jsut wont. We have done timers and sticker charts and ignoring it and having him do the cleanuop and nothing is working. So, since he is used to the term extra, having heard it in reference to his cousin, I told him that if he used the potty all day, he would have extras the next day, and if he didnt he wouldnt. This didnt include nighttime. Well, the first day, he went in his pants and got no extras the next day. Now, we have just completed day two of using the potty all day!!!!! Every time he goes, he gets a sticker and I remind him of the goal.
Anyway, I hope this method is not too punitive or manipulative.

[Mommiska]

Hey - I'm glad that worked for you! I would love to see a discussion about this issue - i.e., using non-directly related 'natural consequences' for slightly older children.

My 3.5 year old will gleefully hit/scratch/etc. her sister at times. I can tell her firmly that that isnt' acceptable, and can then comfort her sister over and over, ignoring dd1 for the rest of the time...and she STILL thinks the hitting is funny.

So - I've started removing her to the stairs and asking her to sit there for a minute and think about her behavior and what she should have done differently. Then, once dd2 is OK, dd1 and I talk about what happened and how to handle the situation differently next time.

I know this is essentially a 'time out' and many here don't agree with them, but I feel the need to get over to her that she doesn't get to hit her sister and keep on playing happily while her sister cries in my arms, you know?

Any other thoughts? Now that dd1 is getting older, I do find that sometimes I need something else that goes beyond simply 'natural consequences' (although I try to stick with those where they are sufficient to get the message across!).

[vesta]

I did something similar with my oldest when she wouldn't use the potty long after she really was trained. It got to the point where I had to struggle not to throw up when changing her poopy diapers. My attitude became: since she was definitely old enough to be pooping on the potty, I was really doing her a favor by letting her do it in a diaper. After a while, I got tired of the favor. I didn't want to do that for her anymore. So I gently said: you can have the favor of pooping in a diaper and me changing it for you, or you can have the favor of my attention with this craft/nature walk/baking cookies. But I can't do both favors for you because I have a limit to how much I can do. DD decided she preferred other "favors" to the poopy diaper and that was that.

I have also given her "chill out" time in her room when she tantrums. I tell her that being with other people means respecting their space and not hurting them. Tantrums hurt my ears. She can go to her room and tantrum. Of course, tantrums are no fun without an audience! So she stops. When she comes back down, I tell her that I missed her and how happy I am to spend time with her again.

I have come to realize that it goes both ways. Since I don't want her yelling at me, I have to restrain myself from yelling at her. Sometimes I don't know who is learning more about discipline--me or her! It's a learning process for me. I have changed so much since I became a mother. My oldest learned three swear words before she was two! My youngest never says anything worse than "oh gosh". Am I vanilla mom now or what?

[Mommiska]

We also do 'chill out' time in bedroom when dd1 tantrums (luckily, there haven't been too many of those in the last week or so...). I also feel that being with other people means respecting them and their needs/wishes - and that others shouldn't have to listen to a full blown tantrum.

I do think that this falls into 'natural consequences' though, in a way that a 1 minute 'time out' for hitting your sister maybe doesn't? Not sure.

Do you all consistently always use 'natural consequences' and nothing else for older children when they are behaving in unacceptable ways (especially hitting, etc. younger siblings). If you always stick with natural consequences, what are they?

I've been trying to talk with dd1 about why she has hit/taken a toy/etc. and what she could do differently that would be acceptable. She can always give me the right answer - it's just behaving in the right way in the heat of the moment that is difficult!

[sparklemom]

"Siblings Without Rivalry" and "How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk" (both written by Faber and Mazlish) are excellent resources for just such situations mentioned in these posts. Excellent resources!

We use only natural consequences, and no rewards or punishments.

When there is sibling rivalry I stay out of it and express to them my belief that they can work it out between themselves...and usually they do. If it gets to the point, though, where one or both are getting hurt then of course I intervene and separate them and all of my attention goes to the victim if there is one.

A most helpful tool/strategy is to simply express how the child is feeling rather than trying to fix or react to a situation. Just reflect how they are feeling in words..."You're feeling frustrated because....you're angry because...you're enthusiastic about..." Actually this works with any age, adult or child. We all deep down just want to be understood.

[boysrus]

Whew. I thought I was going to be gently shoved up against a wall for my approach. I just dont see a natural consequence for the potty thing. He had a no extra day today(only the second one for the week) and he really really seems to understand the connection. He used the potty 100 percent today

As for hitting and biting, I remeber reading that one thing you can do is hold the offendng child and jsut tell them "I am not going to let you hurt anyone" and hold them(restrain arms if necessary) until they have stopped hitting. I also dont think a timeout is inappropriate in that instance. MAybe jsut tell her, "your behavior is unsafe and so you need to be away from your sister until you are showing safe, gentle behavior."

[Mommymoocow]

Ok in my personal opinion i wont let my children beat on eachother or make life for the other miserable just to allow "natural consiquenses" to take place.
Bruised arms, legs and heart itsnt something that i want happening in my home. Time out is a easy way to allow a child to know he/she did wrong and to think about those wrongs. Time to themselves away from fun and harm is not a bad thing at all. I cant even imagine letting my kids get to the point of hurting eachother before i intervene or favoring one over the other if he/she is the "victim". That makes liars out of children to make themselves a victim to get more attention. That is not how i want my child to grow up...there are too many people now that cry victim to get attention.

Again this is my personal opinion. There are too many people in this world now with no dicipline, too many that hit too many that take the hits. I want my children to grow up knowing that its not ok to hit and its DEFENTALLY not ok to take them either.

[sparklemom]

Interesting. I feel I should mention that not on our worst day has either of my children been left with a physical mark from the other hitting her! It is extrememly rare that either of them hits the other. A principle of our household is that hitting is not allowed. If one of my dds hits the other I promptly say "Hitting is not allowed" followed by a note of sympathy to the one that got hit..."are you okay? that must have hurt!" (that's what I mean by victim, the one that actually got hit. it's a sincere question that i would ask anyone who was hit or pushed by another person). I then mention something to the one that was hit to appeal to the higher capacity of the child that did the hitting..."Your sister is usually so nice to you...you usually get along so well...that's not like her to do that." It passes. We move on.

I surely don't mean to sound hokey. This approach is simply in sync with my parenting philosophy. Family harmony is of utmost importance for us as I'm sure it is to you too. And for the most part my dds get along beautifully, like best friends. I've tandem nursed them (they're only 20 months apart in age) and we're together all the time (no preschool...we cosleep...) so maybe this helps. I realize every family is unique.

Time outs and physically restraining a child are simply against my parenting philosophy. The title of this thread is "Maybe I shouldn't have done this, but it worked." A lot of things, crying it out for example, "work" but that doesn't in and of itself make it right. I'm certainly NOT in any way trying to make any specific digs at anyone! The question was posed so I gave my .02. I know we all share a tremedous love for our children!

As far as natural consequences for potty training you're right, that doesn't really apply. We've just never really made an issue out of potty training at all. No rewards...no punishments...just not an issue. Both my dds just started using the potty when they were ready. I would certainly approach the situation with compassion with your 4 1/2 yr old rather than turn it into any type of power struggle. It does make me sad to read that your almost 4 year old nephew has tantrums that last almost an hour. That sounds serious, like there's more to it than just a tantrum.

Mommymoocow, I can see you're new to the mothering forum. Welcome!! This is a wonderful and sadly unique resource.

[Deirdre]

boysrus ~ I hope I am going to answer you clearly because I feel it is jumbled in my head

DH is a somewhat of a behaviorist (teaches special ed) and from what I have learned from him I think you are essentially using a "reinforcement" which is more positive that negative. Time out would be more of a negative reinforcement (ie. something gets taken away for behavior) A positive reinforcement would be rewarding for "good" behavior (ie. gets to choose dinner, gets to have special treat) I guess in your circumstance you were actually already giving the "extra" and then using "taking it away" as the motivator....but if you just tweaked it a bit and in general said that the extras are for "good" (using "good" for lack of better term) behavior then you would be following a positive reinforcement. No "good" behavior, no "extra". Does that make sense?

I also think for some older kids that "contracts" are a good idea. My girlfriend just did this over Christmas with her three older kids (5,7, and 9) and they have been sticking with it. They all sat down and made agreements with her about what they would/ wouldn't do and then they post it on fridge in chart form. If they are followng their contracts they get "extras" (BTW, no punishments for not meeting it).

I guess for someone who wanted to use a completely non-coercive method of dealing with their children neither of these is going to fit. But I think for those who want more structure but want to keep things positive it can work. (Like my friend mentioned above who has one year old twins in addition to her 3 older kids ~ she just needed to have more structure to her discipline)

~Deirdre

[chicklet]

boysrus, I do something similar with my 4 1/2yo , we have a fridge chart with certain things she is expected to do in a timely manner, and she is working towards a goal. She gets flowers when the thing is done (gets dressed, brushes teeth, etc.) and sad faces if not. I think that for her to see the sad faces shows both of us what she needs to work on, it's mostly about listening skills. She tends to tune me out and go along her merry way and do exactly as she pleases while I'm waiting for her to get dressed, asked her 10 times. This behavior is kind of new, since her turning four. She is not very cooperative at times and this chart helps me keep myself together. I also use time outs with much success. I am also able to stop tantrums with a tecnique I learned from Dr. Phil (!) When she's complaining about the time out or whining and won't be quiet I say "time out starts when you're quiet" If she still fusses, time out waits for her to calm down.

It certainly isn't textbook GD but it works for me. I came from a house of yellers, going back many generations so it's one day at a time for me, learning as I go along and trying to be a better mother, disciplinarian.

I'm going to check out the books mentioned. The fours are tough!!

[boysrus]

Deirdre, that is exactly how we are doing it!! i wil ask him during the day if he has to use the potty. And I will say something like "You want to make sure that you put ALL your peepee and poopy in the potty today so you can get extras tomorrow!" and then we make a big deal at each potty and at the end of the day "YAY you used the potty, so now you get extras!" and then on days when he doesnt get extras, everytime an extra situation comes up, I remind him that he doesnt get extras today bc he didnt use the potty, so it is important that he uses the potty all day today, so he can have extras tomorrow. It has been a week now, and he has only had two accidents. One was on the first or 2nd day, and then one was when he was playing outside and forgot.
As far as compassion, of course I havce shown compassion. We have not even made a deal about this at all, except for a gentle reminder when we are changing him. Up to now, we have just let it all take its course. Now, he is 4 1.2 and we know he can use it. He just forgets bc he gets too busy. Taking away extras has helped him remember more easily. We tried ignoring it, we tried giving stickers, we tried having him clean it up, none of these things worked. Now, this has. I wouldnt do it on a younger child or a child who is just learning. I wouldnt press the issue if it werent working, but he had been having at keast one accident a dayl, often 2 or 3, Now he has two in a week. And he really does not seem to be suffering any illl effects from the nethod.
Yes, my nephew has some really big problems tha thopefully his mom is going to get him prfessional help for.

[Sierra]

Originally posted by Carolyn
Hey - I'm glad that worked for you! I would love to see a discussion about this issue - i.e., using non-directly related 'natural consequences' for slightly older children.

A good name for what you are describing would be "logical consequences." When there aren't any natural consequences for a harmful behavior, that's when parents tend to use logical consequences. Logical consequences are related to the harmful behavior, but they don't come naturally, so they are created by the people involved. An example would be a ten year old who takes money from his mother's purse-- without permission-- to buy a toy. The mother realizes what has happened. There is no natural consequence for the boy's behavior, and the boy refuses to take it back to the store. Many would say that the behavior is reinforced if the mother lets the child have the toy because he gets something positive from his stealing. So the mother then tells the boy that because he has bought it with her money, it belongs to her. She takes it from him until he can earn money and repay her the money he took.

It sounds like boysrus is using positive reinforcement, which is a type of logical consequence.

In our home, we prefer natural consequences and what some might call "non-coercive" methods, but we also use logical consequences as necessary. This is especially important for our son because he is a teenager we have just (foster/)adopted, and he is starting from scratch in a lot of ways even though he is old enough to cause lots of havoc for himself and others.

[sfreed4575]

another suggestion

I'm not due til nov, but have over 15 years experience with kids in all different environments... what works well for me is to say.... "If you can't respect (other childs name) space, then you need to play somewhere else" if they move off on their own I let it go... if not, I give them a verbal warning that they need to find another place to play and if they cant do it alone then I will help them. They get this one chance with no threats... if they dont comply I simply pick them up and put them somewhere else and let them know they can come back when they are ready to play nicely....sometimes they throw a tantrum, but I just let them know its ok to be sad and give them a few minutes (however many years they are) then walk over and ask if they need a hug...