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Question about Judaism...TIA - Page 2

post #21 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2seven View Post
I'm very confused about what you are trying to prove with this thread. A Jew who believes that Jesus is the messiah is still considered to be a Jew by Torah law. However, they are considered to be a Jew who is no longer practicing Judaism. Just as a Jew who converts to any other religion.

So what was your point again?
That is my point. For such a complex religion as Judaism you would think the breaking point involves more than simply "Who is the messiah." My point is at what point does a Jew cease being a part of the Jewish religion? What if he maintains all of the traditions, practices, written and oral Torah, beliefs, customs and rituals? Is he still a Jew? Who the messiah is shouldn't affect one's lifestyle. If a person goes and accepts Christian doctrine, begins worshipping Jesus, adopts Christian pratices, beliefs, etc. then he is a Christian. However, many Torah-observant Messianics consider Christianity to be their biggest enemy because of the hatred they have for Torah and Judaism. I guess my confusion surrounds how a Jewish person can be practicing Judaism, believing Judaism and living Judaism yet not be considered a part of Judaism when he has not converted to another religion.

I don't think there is a logical answer. It's just the way it is.

Kristi
post #22 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jokerama View Post
Are you addressing me? (the op)
I'm pretty sure she was addressing Mama2B. I'm not sure what you intended this thread to be but M2B seems to be using it for a forum to provclaim what she believes true, that the jews on this thread are saying isn't.
post #23 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by BelovedBird View Post
I am not assuming anything, I am reffering to the facts about the vast majority of "messianics".

I'm sorry that you can't comprehend something that does not exist. Why not ask jews about judaism and jews rather than telling us how it is?
I'm not telling you anything. I'm letting you know what I've seen. My question has been plainly posted throughout. If you can't or won't answer it that's fine.

Kristi
post #24 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by BelovedBird View Post
I'm pretty sure she was addressing Mama2B. I'm not sure what you intended this thread to be but M2B seems to be using it for a forum to provclaim what she believes true, that the jews on this thread are saying isn't.
What?
post #25 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~~Mama2B~~ View Post

I don't think there is a logical answer. It's just the way it is.
There may just not be a logical answer to a question that doesn't exist. This is true.
post #26 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by BelovedBird View Post
There may just not be a logical answer to a question that doesn't exist. This is true.
How does a question not exist when I have posed it many times? Riiiight...
post #27 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~~Mama2B~~ View Post
I'm not telling you anything. I'm letting you know what I've seen. My question has been plainly posted throughout. If you can't or won't answer it that's fine.

Kristi
You are letting us know that you've seen what?

That one family "rejected" their child for their beliefs? So?? How is that about judaism as a whole?

You made the statement repeatedly as to who is considered a jew. And you were wrong. That has nothing to do with what you've seen.
post #28 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~~Mama2B~~ View Post
How does a question not exist when I have posed it many times? Riiiight...
I could post that Paganism supports murder and ask incessantly "how can that be, I thought pagans loved the earth and respected all beings, how can they support murder?" It would be a question *I* was asking but not a question that really existed in regard to pagans.
post #29 of 90
How many times do the jews on this thread have to write that individual jews remain jews?
post #30 of 90
Messianic Jews are denied return to Israel and are being persecuted by other Jews in Israel. I'm not making generalizations. This is happening. I'm not accusing Judaism as a whole of this, but its in enough places that its obviously not a big secret. In fact, everyone in this room has simply reaffirmed it. I'm sorry that these questions are irritating to you, but I was curious so I thought I'd ask.

Kristi
post #31 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by BelovedBird View Post
How many times do the jews on this thread have to write that individual jews remain jews?
Just once. Thanks for finally answering.
post #32 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~~Mama2B~~ View Post
Just once. Thanks for finally answering.
I think you should reread the thread.
post #33 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by BelovedBird View Post
I think you should reread the thread.
I have been. Thanks.
post #34 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~~Mama2B~~ View Post
Honestly, it doesn't make any sense. A Jew who believes that Rabbi Schnerson is the messiah is a Jew. A Jew who believes that there is no messiah is a Jew. A Jew who doesn't believe in G-d is a Jew. But a Jew who believes that Jesus/Yeshua is the messiah- even if he continues to live a Jewish lifestyle (eating kosher, going to synagogue, keeping the Torah, etc.) and even if he hates/rejects/avoids Christianity is no longer a Jew?
A Jew who converts to Christianity is still a Jew, but is no longer practicing Judaism.

I've yet to meet any Jews who beleived that Jesus was the messiah and continued to practice Torah Judaism. Every individual that I've personally encountered (IRL or online) with such a belief system was not practicing what I consider to be Judaism. There certainly were Jewish elements in their religious practice, but it was not true Judaism. Any Jew belonging to such a congregation and/or practicing such a Faith would fall into the above catagory- a Jew who is no longer practicing Judaism.
post #35 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthla View Post
I've yet to meet any Jews who beleived that Jesus was the messiah and continued to practice Torah Judaism.
So if I'm understanding you correctly, if a Jew did infact practice Torah Judaism then his belief that Jesus is the messiah would not (at least in your eyes) remove him from Judaism? That's really what I was curious about.

I majored in Religious Studies in college and religion fascinates me. I'm just trying to grasp the real issues behind this concept. I'm not trying to be rude, but I do realize this is a sensitive subject for many Jews due to the immense damages that Christianity had done in the name of Jesus.

I'm very pro-Judaism and pro-Israel and all that and while I'm (obviously) not a Jew myself I am very interested in Judaism and just wanted to understand this.

Thanks.

Kristi
post #36 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthla View Post
A Jew who converts to Christianity is still a Jew, but is no longer practicing Judaism.

I've yet to meet any Jews who beleived that Jesus was the messiah and continued to practice Torah Judaism. Every individual that I've personally encountered (IRL or online) with such a belief system was not practicing what I consider to be Judaism. There certainly were Jewish elements in their religious practice, but it was not true Judaism. Any Jew belonging to such a congregation and/or practicing such a Faith would fall into the above catagory- a Jew who is no longer practicing Judaism.
Also, I'm curious, if you don't mind me asking- what branch of Judaism do you follow? I have friends who are Reform and Conservative and those are the branches I'm most familiar with, but I know there are a lot of differences between them and Orthodox and even more between them and Chassidic.

Kristi
post #37 of 90
Do you mind telling us where one can find a congregatuion of these supposed jews who follow regular halachik judaism yet believe Jesus is the messsiah? As Ruth mentioned I have never heard of or met anyone like that, what I have heard of and known is along the lines of this:
Quote:
What is the difference between Messianic Judaism and Christianity? Christianity is faith in Yeshua as primarily expressed by His Gentile followers, and is made up of many denominations and various doctrines. People who identify themselves as Christians number over one billion people in the world. For most of the First Century AD, faith in Yeshua was predominantly Jewish. As more and more Gentiles came into the Messianic Faith however, some had little understanding or regard for its Jewish roots and God's eternal covenant with Israel. A "de-Judaizing" process set in, that is, a separation from the Jewish roots of the Faith and from the Jewish people. This separation eventually led to the formation of a second branch of Faith in Yeshua that is primarily composed of Gentile Believers, which is known as "Christianity." While there is only one Faith, and we are definitely one in the Spirit with true Gentile Christians, Messianic Jews have our own expression of the Faith. Messianic Judaism holds that belief in Yeshua is a return to the Jewish roots of the Faith. We observe a Jewish lifestyle while at the same time maintaining that the only way to be saved and inherit eternal life is by placing our faith in the atoning work of the Messiah (Romans 11:24-25).
From here.
post #38 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~~Mama2B~~ View Post
So if I'm understanding you correctly, if a Jew did infact practice Torah Judaism then his belief that Jesus is the messiah would not (at least in your eyes) remove him from Judaism? That's really what I was curious about.
I suppose if somebody beleived in his/her heart that Jesus was the messiah but didn't do anything about that beleif or advertise that fact, and continued to practice Judaism, nobody would know the difference. Anybody who's vocal about that belief would probably find themselves uncomfortable in a Jewish synagogue and would likely gravitate towards a Messianic Church/Temple/whatever they want to call themselves.
Quote:
I'm very pro-Judaism and pro-Israel and all that and while I'm (obviously) not a Jew myself I am very interested in Judaism and just wanted to understand this.
There is a difference between Israeli law and Jewish Law. According to Jewish Law, anybody born to a Jewish mother, or who underwent a Halachic conversion, is a Jew. Period. Israeli law is more complicated.

If you want to immigrate to Israel, and you're not Jewish, there are immigration procedures that are similar to the immigration laws in other countries, such as the USA. Jews who want to immigrate to Israel have a much simplified and expidited process. Israeli law has specific guidelines about who qualifies for this simplified process, which is completely separate from the Halachic definitions of who is a Jew. Jews who practice Christianity, for example, forfeit the right to be considered "Jewish" for the purpose of Israeli immigration, but they're still eligable to apply for Israeli citizenship the "normal" way. What is considered "practicing Christianity" for the purpose of Israeli immigration is determined by the secular Israeli government.
post #39 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~~Mama2B~~ View Post
What are you talking about? The primary factors defining the rift between mainstream Judaism and the Jewish sect who claimed Yeshua as messiah were not centered around exclusivism. The gentiles became more numerous in the sect and brought with them their pagan beliefs and practices. Due to these influences, many Jews rightfully seperated themselves from early-Christianity. However, there were still plenty of Jews who continued on in Judaism yet believed Yeshua was the messiah.
I don't think I agree with this as historical analysis. It ignores the very existence of Rabbinic Judaism and other post-Temple sects. All Jews did not join the early Christians.

I don't think you can accurately say that Jews "continued on in Judaism" if there were part of early Christianity, since Christianity did separate itself into another religion AND, since Rabbinic Judaism did become the dominant, canonical Judaism.

i know, it's kind of reading backwards, isn't it? In the immediate post-Temple period, no one knew which Judaism was going to be officially Jewish and which Christianity was going to be the religion we know today. So it seems weird to talk about the early Jews in Christianity as either Jews or Christians, but we have to take the current canonical religions into account. (Especially on this board, in a dialogue between present-day Jews and Christians.)

When I taught students about this period at the state university (and it's like six years ago now! whoa!) i developed a way of thinking about the competition between early X-tianity and Rabbinic Judaism. Rabbinic Jews and Christians were two parties who were competing both to define post-Temple Judaism, and to gain converts from outside of Judaism. Rabbinic Judaism won the right to define Judaism, and Christianity got the Roman Empire and the universalist drive for non-Jewish converts.

The way your narrative has it is kind of like the question that my students sometimes asked "Well why don't Jews believe in Jesus?" Which is kind of a silly question, because belief in Jesus (as messiah, or divine, or what have you) is what defines Christianity, now. The split between the two groups was a two-way split, but it's still a split.

it puts Jewish converts to Christianity, or Jews who practice any sort of syncretistic Jewish-Christianity, in an uncomfortable position.
post #40 of 90
Appologies to the OP, I was addressing mama2b. Since you seem to have missed this, I'll say it again. Anyone who was born a Jew, remains a Jew according to Jewish law no matter what they believe in. We can believe that there are individuals who have beliefs that are 'in error', but they are still Jewish. The law of return is not Jewish law, but one of the laws of the state of Israel. Israel is NOT a theocracy, but a democracy. This law has more to do with related laws that ban those from proseletyze Jews to other religions from Israel. So, in summary - an individual Jew can believe anything they want and according to Jewish law, they remain a Jew. However, once they have deviated from normative Judaism and accept another religion (in this case, accepting Jesus as a messiah is, uh, CHRISTIANITY), they can no longer lay claim to practicing Judaism.
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