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Question about Judaism...TIA - Page 5

post #81 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamaverdi View Post
Why not just not employ meshichists? (I mean this as question and in the most naive way possible.)


That assumes that the people making judgmental judgments about meshikhist Chabadniks are actually able to distinguish between meshikhist Chabadniks and all Chabadniks. Have learned from experience that many aren't. (And the emes is that until we connected ourselves with various Chabad institutions some years back ... preschool and the very special and holy and loving and wonderful Chabad rebbeim on the Upper West Side ... we couldn't distinguish between them. And a lot of folks in Rekhovot haven't figured it out either. And other places. ) And it assumes that if you went that step of not employing meshikhists, said judgmental people would care one way or the other ... some people just like bashing Chabad.



Am personally not pleased with the whole meshikhist thing, and find it leads to, well, people asking the kinds of questions that have been on this thread ... but have gained some patience with it over the last few years. We all do need the world to be fixed so badly, you know?
post #82 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janelovesmax View Post
I think "Messianic Judaism" is an oxymoron.(did I spell that right?). You either follow Judaism or you follow Christianity. That's what I think.
I happen to agree with you. However, as a non-Christian, I don't think it's fair for me to decide what is and isn't Christianity. I'm comfortable saying that a Jew who follows "Messianic Judaism" isn't practicing normative Judaism. I don't feel qualified to define whether or not that person is practicing Christianity- that individual's beleifs and practices could be outside the scope of normative Christianity and deserve a label all its own.
post #83 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by merpk View Post
My understanding is that Jacob Frank's messianist cult just followed its natural course and became Christian. Which is what they were. And Shabtai Tzvi converted to Islam, and there are those who consider themselves still "Shabtai'ans" or something like that, and they're an identifying-Muslim cult. Is my understanding, anyway.
I think both groups stayed separate. There was an article about five years ago (? not sure) in the Jerusalem Report about Sabbateans in Turkey. They aren't Jewish or Muslim, but this third sort of mishmosh thing.

(Mishmosh=a less respectful and formal way of saying "syncretistic.")

About the kashrut: I understood that many Hasidim practiced a stricter/slightly different/somehow not the same set of rules for shechita, and that this dates back to the 19th century or earlier. Isn't that the case?

An annoying thing about Judaism is, because it's rules-based, you can create all kinds of rifts and spin-offs by disagreeing about just one thing. Like, matrilineal and patrilineal descent. Like, shechitah (kosher slaughter for meat). Like, matzah. Like--you name it! So here we are discussing big things, like messianic movements, when you could just as easily fracture over something a lot smaller.
post #84 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by kroonkles View Post
And according to DH: anytime you eat something from a way-out foreign country, do you think the hechsher company is flying out someone to supervise or are they relying on the local shaliach? (that's probably what you meant )
Yes, I did mean that. And sometimes you only have to go to Kansas or some such to be considered "way-out". I hear hashgacha work is one of the top money makers for shluchim located anywhere outside of the larger Jewish communities.
post #85 of 90
Wow. I just spent a long time on that Messianic Torah website. The "Biblical clothes" are interesting. If I understand them, they are saying that they don't reject Torah in any way, they just add on a few more books from the NT to supplement their beliefs. Therefore, they are not Christians.

I do find them to be deliberately misleading in their use of Hebrew-- there are many Jews who do not immediately connect Yeshua with Jesus.

I would feel very uncomfortable with them at my Shabbos table (we host religious Christians all the time who are interested in having a Shabbat meal with Jews). Sure J was Jewish, and sounds like he was a great guy, but I don't think their definition of mashiach is the same as Chabad or any other Jews. I can understand them wanting to call themselves something other than Christians, but maybe they should call themselves Messianic Israelites or Messianic Hebrews, because they are not practicing Judaism, and I resent their underhandedness.

The "JuBus" or "HiBus" I know (Jews who spiritually/philosophically identify with Eastern Religions) haven't started their own places of worship or ordained their own Rabbis.

They remind me of the "Black Hebrews" in Dimona.
"The Original African Hebrew Israelite Nation of Jerusalem,":http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...k_Hebrews.html
post #86 of 90
Black Hebrews of Dimona are different because they're not out to convert all the Jews. Not sure if they're into Jesus, but if they are, they don't believe that the rest of the world has to believe in him. It's central to messianic Christian AND messianic Hebrew belief that they have to spread the good news. Which is why I used to get so much junk mail from them.
post #87 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by LookMommy! View Post
Sure J was Jewish, and sounds like he was a great guy, but I don't think their definition of mashiach is the same as Chabad or any other Jews. I can understand them wanting to call themselves something other than Christians
:
post #88 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by merpk View Post
Black Hebrews of Dimona are different because they're not out to convert all the Jews. Not sure if they're into Jesus, but if they are, they don't believe that the rest of the world has to believe in him.
AFAIK, the Black Hebrews are not into JC. I've actually always kind of admired them. I certainly don't think that their religion is Judaism, but I can see the appeal of their beliefs and lifestyle (at least in the ideal of what little I know of it). They believe that African people (or some of them anyway) are from the ten lost tribes. They identify the slavery, oppression, and prejudice against POC with the experience of the Bnai Yisroel (the children of Israel) in Egypt. Unfortunately, there seems to be a sentiment that they are the "real Jews" among them due to this (don't know if this is official doctrine). They have their own version of tznuit (modesty) and promote natural childbirth and veganinsm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by merpk View Post
It's central to messianic Christian AND messianic Hebrew belief that they have to spread the good news. Which is why I used to get so much junk mail from them.
Yeah, I just love getting thick books thrown into my front yard titled Things Your Rabbi Never Told You. Or people ringing my bell, claiming they want to discuss "Torah" with me.
post #89 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthla View Post
I happen to agree with you. However, as a non-Christian, I don't think it's fair for me to decide what is and isn't Christianity. I'm comfortable saying that a Jew who follows "Messianic Judaism" isn't practicing normative Judaism. I don't feel qualified to define whether or not that person is practicing Christianity- that individual's beleifs and practices could be outside the scope of normative Christianity and deserve a label all its own.
Wow, nice to see some respect for a different faith on this board.
post #90 of 90
I hope I didn't offend anyone with my Q about the whole kosher and who can certify and meshichist/non-meshichist issue.

Can I ask another meshichist question? The one I always ask when people claim that J is the Moshiach? Where is world peace? And do they think the Rebbe z'l is dead or not? :
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