Using GD and NOT raising a brat

[Steve's Wife]

So I'm relatively new to the GD philosophy - in fact I was only introduced to it when my daughter was first born my happening upon this site. I realize that many people around me, most notably my SIL, use GD. They are all raising brats. These kids don't listen, talk back, don't respect anyone including their parents and siblings. I want to use GD, but it's so hard to see these kids around me and think it works. Don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating spanking, harsh punishments, humiliation, etc., but I am not necessarily against time-outs, praise for a job well done or for listening, setting definite boundries, and expecting respect from my children.

[DevaMajka]

Are you sure they gd? Or are they permissive? The two are not one and the same.
I am anti-punishment (actually, anti-behaviorism)
But I expect ds to respect mine and others' (legitimate) boundaries, etc.
I think if that is your goal, your child's attachment to you is a much stronger tool than any type of behaviorism.

[Dragonfly]

I've honestly never met a child who truly experienced Gentle Discipline who was what society would call a "brat." I have, though, met children whose parents did no parenting whatsoever (something folks who don't know better might call "GD") who were quite intolerable to be around.

It might help if you elaborated on what those around you are actually doing and give examples of how their children are behaving. Of course, it's also important to note that society is generally intolerant of children voicing their opinions, so behavior that would be perfectly acceptable by adults is often characterized as "bratty" when it's engaged in by children. Not saying you fall into that category, but it's just something to be aware of.

[Steve's Wife]

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

It might help if you elaborated on what those around you are actually doing and give examples of how their children are behaving. Of course, it's also important to note that society is generally intolerant of children voicing their opinions, so behavior that would be perfectly acceptable by adults is often characterized as "bratty" when it's engaged in by children. Not saying you fall into that category, but it's just something to be aware of.

Yeah, this behavior is not acceptable with adults or children. I'm talking about hitting, saying shut up both to peers and adults, yelling, etc. Generally behavior like this is met with, "that's not nice", "please don't do that", or "so-and-so, we've already talked about that behavior". And that's it. The behavior happens again with the same lame response. We're talking about preschool through older elementary aged children. My girlfriend is particularly guilty of these - it's so frustrating and it makes you not want to be around her kids. They totally run the show, telling people what the activites of the day are going to be, where people are to sit at dinner, that kind of thing.

[ShaggyDaddy]

Originally Posted by Steve's Wife

expecting respect from my children.

This caught my eye, and I am not trying to single you out by quoting you, just trying to speak on a topic that sparks in my mind when I hear the term "respect" with respect to discipline.

In my opinion respect and most people's concept of "discipline" are mutually exclusive. If I make decisions for my children that they are capable of making themselves, I am denying them respect and they will in-turn deny me (and more importantly themselves) respect.

Any time you force someone to do something or do not allow them to make their own decision you are bound to a pattern of reciprocative disrespect. In my opinion overly permissive parents do many of the same kinds of damage to their children as parents who physically or emotionally control every aspect of a child's life. The important life experience both sides are lacking is REAL accountability. If you do not encourage and require decision making from a child they do not learn how to make decisions and deal with the consquences. They do not learn conflict resolution. In the permissive version nothing is expected of the children so they do not have to resolve anything. In the punnishment version, the parents are responsible for resolving conflicts so there is no experience gained.

It is unreasonable to expect someone who is treated in a subserviant and condescending way to actually respect you (or anyone for that matter).

Also I have noticed that many people mistake "manners" for respect.

Respect is one of those things that you cannot force it has to be earned.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by Steve's Wife

Generally behavior like this is met with, "that's not nice", "please don't do that", or "so-and-so, we've already talked about that behavior". And that's it. The behavior happens again with the same lame response. We're talking about preschool through older elementary aged children. My girlfriend is particularly guilty of these - it's so frustrating and it makes you not want to be around her kids. They totally run the show, telling people what the activites of the day are going to be, where people are to sit at dinner, that kind of thing.

That sounds like no discipline, not gentle discipline. If you're curious as to what gentle discipline actually is, I'd suggest hanging around and reading the forum for a while. It's not inaction and permissiveness. It requires near-constant involvement and awareness.

[hipcoolmama]

Originally Posted by Deva33mommy

Are you sure they gd? Or are they permissive? The two are not one and the same.
I am anti-punishment (actually, anti-behaviorism)
But I expect ds to respect mine and others' (legitimate) boundaries, etc.
I think if that is your goal, your child's attachment to you is a much stronger tool than any type of behaviorism.

I couldn't have said it better!

[hipcoolmama]

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

That sounds like no discipline, not gentle discipline. If you're curious as to what gentle discipline actually is, I'd suggest hanging around and reading the forum for a while. It's not inaction and permissiveness. It requires near-constant involvement and awareness.

Exactly.

[obiandelismom]

One thing I struggle with is the notion that if kids "tell everyone where to sit at dinner" then they are brats. I know that's just one trait of the kids you're seeing, but it's something that I've had a hard time with myself. If you respect kids and allow them as much autonomy as possible, they are going to wind up feeling like they have as much right to exert control over their environment as anyone else. But if you are from a "kids should know their place" mindset, this type of behavior is going to seem cheeky or "uppity". I really have to watch myself at times, to be sure that I'm not judging kids to be "brats" solely because they are acting as if they have the right to be treated equally.

The really tough thing about raising children GD (I feel) is teaching them the respect for OTHERS that must go along with the above. I want my kids to feel that if they have strong feelings about where people sit at dinner then they are free to voice those opinions. But I also work very hard at developing their awareness that other people have their own strong feelings, and we have to all work together to "maximize happiness" It is a hard thing, and there are times that I worry my kids are seen as "brats". But ultimately I know that they will turn out to be MORE respectful of other people than kids who are punished or shamed into "knowing their place." I see it already in my 5yo and 3yo. The other day, my 5yo ds's soccer coach was trying to chat with ds, and ds kept getting distracted by other things. Finally the coach gave up and walked away. Later, I said to ds, "When your coach was trying to talk to you, you didn't seem to be hearing him." He thought for a minute, clearly remembering the exchange, and said, "Oh. Do you think I hurt his feelings? I'll tell him I'm sorry tomorrow." I think (I tell myself, anyway!) that a child who has been punished for "rudeness" would have missed the effect his actions had on the other person, whereas my ds had an opportunity to really understand what manners are FOR.

Hope that makes sense! And fwiw, I know some gd'd brats myself. But I also know a few kids who are regularly spanked and "well-behaved" in public, but they have a mean streak a mile wide. You can't generalize from a few examples, but whenever I'm worrying about my parenting, I always think of those well-spanked kids!

[uberwench]

Originally Posted by obiandelismom

One thing I struggle with is the notion that if kids "tell everyone where to sit at dinner" then they are brats. I know that's just one trait of the kids you're seeing, but it's something that I've had a hard time with myself. If you respect kids and allow them as much autonomy as possible, they are going to wind up feeling like they have as much right to exert control over their environment as anyone else. But if you are from a "kids should know their place" mindset, this type of behavior is going to seem cheeky or "uppity". I really have to watch myself at times, to be sure that I'm not judging kids to be "brats" solely because they are acting as if they have the right to be treated equally.

^yeah, that

i was going to write something similar.

Now if my son were hitting someone, or truly intruding in a dangerous or offensive way (in the seating example, if he were pushing people into specific chairs at the table instead of asking them nicely, or having a fit if someone didn't WANT to sit in a specific spot), then that's a case for discussion and intervention.

[zeldamomma]

I'm new to GD (I feel like I put that in every post). But my older dd sometimes want to decide where everyone sits at dinner. If it's "Grandpa will you sit by me" I think it's fine, but when it crosses the line to being bossy, we have a conversation.

I'm reading this thread because I don't know how to enforce good behavior without negative consequences (whether it be timeouts, or leaving a gathering or something else), particularly in kids who aren't naturally very empathetic. I don't want to be an ineffectual parent or constantly nagging ("Please don't whine" "Do you need a break?", etc...)

I have the impression that Alfie Kohn's books are mostly "why" books, not "how to" books. Is that right?

[Steve's Wife]

Originally Posted by uberwench

^yeah, that

i was going to write something similar.

Now if my son were hitting someone, or truly intruding in a dangerous or offensive way (in the seating example, if he were pushing people into specific chairs at the table instead of asking them nicely, or having a fit if someone didn't WANT to sit in a specific spot), then that's a case for discussion and intervention.

This is how the child in my example acts, although it's gotten better as she's aged.

[Steve's Wife]

I have been hanging around this board for a while, but I guess I'm still having a hard time seeing the difference between GD and permissiveness. I know they are not the same thing, but a lot of what I see here seems like permissiveness. I don't know...I'll have to elaborate later...casserole is done.

[MtBikeLover]

Originally Posted by zeldamomma

I have the impression that Alfie Kohn's books are mostly "why" books, not "how to" books. Is that right?

I did not find his books to offer a lot of "how to" although I did like what he had to say. If you are looking for a great "how to" book, I highly recommed "How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk."

[hipcoolmama]

Originally Posted by obiandelismom

The really tough thing about raising children GD (I feel) is teaching them the respect for OTHERS that must go along with the above. I want my kids to feel that if they have strong feelings about where people sit at dinner then they are free to voice those opinions. But I also work very hard at developing their awareness that other people have their own strong feelings, and we have to all work together to "maximize happiness"

Yep! I think it happens naturally as kids grow. Babies/toddlers are usually only aware of their own needs (I read in an AP book that this is for self-preservation, which makes sense). As kids grow up and their needs are met and they feel confidant their parents will provide for them because of the "attachment," the kids then begin to naturally develop awareness and compassion for other people they interact with. It's a process though as the child becomes more aware of the world around them.

[hipcoolmama]

Originally Posted by obiandelismom

One thing I struggle with is the notion that if kids "tell everyone where to sit at dinner" then they are brats.

I know kids who do this (not mine) and I think it is not that they are being brats but that they like order and routine. They have gotten used to people sitting in certain places. It might be upsetting to them to break from the norm.

Also, sometimes they may seem "bratty" when they become excited or agitated by new people sitting at the table and disrupting the order, but sometimes I think maybe they are just simply pointing out (in their own way) that the order and routine are different than usual.

I don't want my kids to get upset by a different routine or order (because that's not always the way the world works) so I think the GD approach of explaining and reassuring works well *sometimes* in this situation.

[heartmama]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating spanking, harsh punishments, humiliation, etc., but I am not necessarily against time-outs, praise for a job well done or for listening, setting definite boundries, and expecting respect from my children.

I would urge you to read the Discipline Threads that are posted at the very top of this forum.

Particularly this one:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=454664

Even though many parents here choose not to use time outs, many do. All are using GD. GD differs from one family to the next.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by Steve's Wife

I have been hanging around this board for a while, but I guess I'm still having a hard time seeing the difference between GD and permissiveness. I know they are not the same thing, but a lot of what I see here seems like permissiveness. I don't know...I'll have to elaborate later...casserole is done.

Example from tonight. Dd had climbed onto the bed to nurse, and I was changing clothes. Ds climbed up next to her (but not so close as to invade her space). They were both a little cranky (I'd eaten the last cookie : and ds was mad at me, dd was just tired), and she decided she didn't want him there. She pushed him, and said "get down, T". I said "there's room for 2". She hit him, and I responded "we don't hit. that's not OK. that hurts T". (I'm still working on the phrasing things positively the FIRST time!) She went to do it again, I quit changing clothes, reached out and prevented her hand from making contact. I repeated "there's room for 2 here. Be gentle." She tried to hit again, I prevented contact. I then laid down, moved her closer to me and said "let's nurse". She quit trying to hit and nursed. When she was done, she didn't think to hit.

Permissiveness, IMO, would look the same through "we don't hit. that's not OK." But then when she went to do it again, a permissive/ineffective parent would have repeated "we don't hit. it's not OK." without doing anything else and with allowing the hittingn to continue.

There are times when I'm sure I "look" permissive. As in when my kids don't want to leave the playground, and I agree to more time there. But if there's nothing pressing and they want more time, why not? If there is something pressing, I explain that, and set a limit.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by Steve's Wife

I have been hanging around this board for a while, but I guess I'm still having a hard time seeing the difference between GD and permissiveness. I know they are not the same thing, but a lot of what I see here seems like permissiveness. I don't know...I'll have to elaborate later...casserole is done.

I think permissive parents are parents who let their children abuse their boundaries. For example, my kids do a lot of things that other people might think are bratty or unruly. I let them jump on our couch, I let them run around without shoes, etc. But I don't care if they do those things, in fact I sometimes encourage them. I think of a permissive parent as one who continually allows their child to do something they don't want them to.

There's a woman who used to come to storytime who was, IMO, the quintessential permissive parent. She followed her two year old dd around saying, "No, no, we're not going to do that. No, no, don't do that." All the while her dd was doing whatever she wanted, pulling books off the shelves, knocking over chairs, trying to molest babies in strollers, etc. The mom didn't provide her any redirection, she didn't stop her from doing anything, she just constantly made this background noise of "no, no" that her dd had by then completely tuned out. I think THAT is ineffective parenting, and does a great disservice to children. But I don't think it's GD.

[MelMel]

Originally Posted by Steve's Wife

My girlfriend is particularly guilty of these - it's so frustrating and it makes you not want to be around her kids. They totally run the show, telling people what the activites of the day are going to be, where people are to sit at dinner, that kind of thing.

nak

i hear ya....i've been in that house, too....many times.

we just try to find a balance of mutual respect. my dd has a feisty personality, and its easy for her to fall into the 'brat' catagory, i just try to not indulge it. i think alot of the problems come from these children being so centered in the family dynamic, which puts pressure on them, to perform and to run the show.....i really believe in everyone having a place and no one being elevated over another. if my dd is 'flipping out' unreasonably, i just give her space and time to chill, i am silent and go about my business. i found that when i would get close and over-indulge, over-explain, and/or over-pacify she would spiral out of control and be more apt to tantrum frequently..

i would never dream of ordering someone around, especially if they are a guest in my home, and my children should know enough to be that adaptable as well. these are behavoirs that arent acceptable what age you are. whether they are physical or verbal demands shouldnt matter, either.

the thing i like the best about GD is natural consequences, as opposed to random/shaming/arbitrary ones....but its hard for a child to know that 'veronica doesnt come to play much anymore because you are rude and demanding to her family' so i do try to catch these insensitive behaviors in my own child and correct/explain them and just avoid the families who think they are being TCS (another theory/term that looks good on paper but gets botched too easily in practice), or more laid back, but are really just raising children with no consideration for others.