Using GD and NOT raising a brat - Page 2

[The4OfUs]

Hi there - let me assure you that you can raise ea child GD and NOT raise a "brat", I am living proof. My parents were on the more 'parents in charge' end of the GD spectrum, but there was no shaming, yelling, berating, hitting, or even arbitrary punishment in my house (in fact, I can only remember being "punished" once my entire childhood)...and quite frankly, I'm a decent, honest, respectful, kind person (not to pat myself on the back or anything ).

I've realized that to me, GD is aa lot about the parent's reaction to the child's behavior, not necessarily the child's behavior itself.

For the most part, I see "mainstream" punitive parenting as the parents needing to "do something" about a child's behavior to either "put them in their place" (which is invariably as less worthy than adults) or to "teach them a lesson" (which is ironic, because usually all the child learns is to resent whatever punishment they've gotten, and by extension, their parents). With GD, I see the parent as not only stopping/preventing behaviors that impact others negatives, but giving them the alternative way that would be more approriate...so instead of just "a lesson", they are getting the skills and tools they need to move forward in life. I see mainstream, punitive parenting as very short sighted and immediate results oriented, whereas GD is more long term goal oriented.

To outsiders, I think it is that reason that GD looks to be "doing nothing". Because we're not trying to stop out children from expressing their feelings of discontent or disagreement, we're teaching them more acceptable ways to do it - and teaching things like that takes time...so, you might see me out with my 2-year-old, and he shouts NO!" at my face when I ask him to do something. A punitive mindset would think, "she's got to show that child he can't talk to her like that"....but I think, "I have to teach him a more gentle, acceptable way to express his displeasure." "showing him" punitively that he couldn't talk to me like that by saying "that's it, we're not going to the park because of your sass mouth" sure, that teaches him not to back talk to me if there's something else he wants to do, but doesn't teach him much more than that (other than to stuff his mad feelings because I'm not listening to him anyway)......but saying to him, "hey bud, I know you're mad...but that tone of voice is not OK. Please tell me again more calmly." Is teaching him 1) it's OK to be mad. 2) It's NOT OK to talk that way to me. 3) I will listen to him when he doesn't agree with me (I won't always change my mind, but I will consider his point of view).

I think people get so caught up in the way their kids should behave, they lose sight of the purpose of parenting, which to me is to guide your child gently into becoming a responsible, caring adult. Disregarding their feelings (even the negative ones) is hardly a good way to accomplish that.

I have more thoughts on this, but must go feed the kiddles. Will be back later.

[sunnysideup]

Originally Posted by The4OfUs

I think people get so caught up in the way their kids should behave, they lose sight of the purpose of parenting, which to me is to guide your child gently into becoming a responsible, caring adult. Disregarding their feelings (even the negative ones) is hardly a good way to accomplish that.

Good post, The4OfUs.

Technically, "permissive" means "habitually or characteristically accepting or tolerant of something, as social behavior or linguistic usage, that others might disapprove or forbid." Which honestly, doesn't sound so bad to me. But, in the context in which it is used here--I think what people are really talking about is neglectful parenting--parents that give in to their children's demands because they don't want to be bothered to do any more. Neglected kids do act like brats because they don't get the guidance or attention they need.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by natensarah

I think permissive parents are parents who let their children abuse their boundaries. For example, my kids do a lot of things that other people might think are bratty or unruly. I let them jump on our couch, I let them run around without shoes, etc. But I don't care if they do those things, in fact I sometimes encourage them. I think of a permissive parent as one who continually allows their child to do something they don't want them to.

Yes, good point there. I do let my ds do a lot of things, but its because *I* am ok with it. I strive to give him what he wants, in a way that is agreeable to myself as well. His desires and opinions matter just as much as mine. If he doesn't want to leave the park, and there's nothing pressing, we stay.
I don't allow him to do things that will harm another person/animal. I will physically stop hitting, if saying "stop" once doesn't do it. I will stop him from yelling, or leave the area, if it is genuinely bothering someone. And I won't let him harm someone else's property.
I tell him how his actions are affecting others, and I expect him to respect others' right to stay free from harm. If he can't respect that, I *help* him do it (by redirecting, leaving the situation, explaining, etc).

[DevaMajka]

Have to add, that ITA with The4OfUs

[IdentityCrisisMama]

My DC is 5 and things have been so nice lately. But, we've been through some really difficult patches lasting months. One was at about 3 and another was at 4. One thing that I've noticed with my friends (who all GD) is that there is relatively little "terrible twos" to speak of and the challenging age in early childhood is between 3-5. DC is now in a pre-K and she's the oldest. The other kids are from 3-4.5 for the most part and I'm seeing these parents struggle with the same things I did just months ago. I bring this up because I do think that most kids just go through stages where it's hard for parents and where there are no easy solutions. I don't think hitting a child or using time outs or even perfectly executed GD is going to relieve parents of this.

I also really agree with obiandelismom in regards to the fact that people have different expectations of how a child should act and where the child's "place" is in a social setting. I don't think any type of discipline will solve this problem between people with different views.

Oh, and yes..the4ofus! Add me to the list of GDd adults who is not a brat.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by The4OfUs

For the most part, I see "mainstream" punitive parenting as the parents needing to "do something" about a child's behavior to either "put them in their place" (which is invariably as less worthy than adults) or to "teach them a lesson" (which is ironic, because usually all the child learns is to resent whatever punishment they've gotten, and by extension, their parents). With GD, I see the parent as not only stopping/preventing behaviors that impact others negatives, but giving them the alternative way that would be more approriate...so instead of just "a lesson", they are getting the skills and tools they need to move forward in life. I see mainstream, punitive parenting as very short sighted and immediate results oriented, whereas GD is more long term goal oriented.

To outsiders, I think it is that reason that GD looks to be "doing nothing". Because we're not trying to stop out children from expressing their feelings of discontent or disagreement, we're teaching them more acceptable ways to do it - and teaching things like that takes time...so, you might see me out with my 2-year-old, and he shouts NO!" at my face when I ask him to do something. A punitive mindset would think, "she's got to show that child he can't talk to her like that"....but I think, "I have to teach him a more gentle, acceptable way to express his displeasure."

[EnviroBecca]

One thing I struggle with is the notion that if kids "tell everyone where to sit at dinner" then they are brats.

I think a lot of GD is about guiding kids to acceptable ways of doing what they want to do. My mom used to deal with my desire to choose the seating arrangement by telling me to make place cards. That also kept me busy while waiting for dinner to be ready.

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by EnviroBecca

I think a lot of GD is about guiding kids to acceptable ways of doing what they want to do. My mom used to deal with my desire to choose the seating arrangement by telling me to make place cards. That also kept me busy while waiting for dinner to be ready.

WOW - I was JUST going to come and post this - it was always "my job" to make the place cards for extended family dinners, and I loved it.

I think that part of the issue may be differing concepts of what's OK and not OK. Lots of people just aren't OK with kids making decisions simply by virtue of the fact that they're kids. I personally believe that allowing your child to make decisions and voice their opinions (respectfully, and even if they dissent) is crucial to helping them develop.

So for instance, a child saying, "Mom, you sit here, dad here, grandpa here, grandma here, and me here" is absolutely A-OK - doesn't feel a bit bossy to me at all - no different than an adult in the household lettign people know where to sit....if an adult has some reason for not wanting or being able to sit where the child said, and they tell the child, and the child reacts by screaming in their face, then we might have a small problem, but again it's one of teaching them how to appropriately respond to disappointment, NOT that their ideas about the seating arrangement don't matter. If there is no "assigned seating" and people go to sit down and the child starts screaming at people that they're in the wrong place and they have to sit elsewhere, to me again it's not so much that the child is doing something they "shouldn't" (cause who really cares where they sit as an adult - except maybe those who were forced to sit in a particular spot as a kid? ), but that the child is interacting in a way that is inappropriate and ineffective. My reasoning with DS (as much as I can reason with him and his particular personality and development) has always been, "When you speak kindly and gently with people, they'll be more likely to be happy to listen to you. When you shout and boss them around, people generally don't like it, and probably won't do what you're asking."


Soooo, I'd probably have to see the whole family dynamic before passing any kind of thought on the children in the OP about whether they were "bratty" or not - and I would venture to say that the issues could be resolved at least in part by more responsive, *instructive* parenting than by parenting that either caters to their child's every whim regardless of the presentation of said whim, or on the opposite end of the spectrum, disregards their thoughts and opinions.

[debm]

I appreciate reading the responses here as I am currently having a very difficult time with this issue myself. I have always used GD (most of the 'alternatives to punishment') and, on the whole I think I have a fantastic kid. But, he is very strong willed and opinionated and feisty and I am getting a lot of flack from my community and peers. Partly this is my fault because I opened myself up to it. Perhaps from now on I won't solicit advice or opinions!

A anecdote. All my friends are telling me use a 'three strikes and you are out' type of plan that ends up in time out. Yesterday afternoon, DS, who is five, was whiny and probably needed a break. He wanted to stay and play at a friends house but I knew it was time to go. He balked. I used the three strikes plan and it ended up with me dragging him hysterically back to our house. I **could** have negotiated with him to get home and then given him some down time but, because I felt pressure from my friends, I chose the above. I don't feel great about it. Why should I choose something that only escalates his intensity?? This makes no sense to me. He went from whiny to screaming all because I played 'three strikes and you are out'. I did notice that he was in a great mood about an hour later and played well the rest of the day. I wonder if it was my firmness that helped or would he have chilled out and had a good afternoon if we had simply gone home without the drama. I just don't know.

[Joannarachel]

Originally Posted by Steve's Wife

So I'm relatively new to the GD philosophy - in fact I was only introduced to it when my daughter was first born my happening upon this site. I realize that many people around me, most notably my SIL, use GD. They are all raising brats. These kids don't listen, talk back, don't respect anyone including their parents and siblings. I want to use GD, but it's so hard to see these kids around me and think it works. Don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating spanking, harsh punishments, humiliation, etc., but I am not necessarily against time-outs, praise for a job well done or for listening, setting definite boundries, and expecting respect from my children.

Doesn't sound like your sister is using GD, she's just not parenting

GD is about knowing and respecting your child as a human being, and teaching him to WANT to be 'good' rather than being 'good' in response to a fear of being punished.

[Dal]

Originally Posted by debm

I did notice that he was in a great mood about an hour later and played well the rest of the day. I wonder if it was my firmness that helped or would he have chilled out and had a good afternoon if we had simply gone home without the drama. I just don't know.

I wouldn't attribute it to you being firmer with him than usual. If it had anything to do with the intensity of his upset, it may have been that he was simply in need of a good cry -- which doesn't mean that it's a good idea to use coercive tactics to trigger one.

Awhile back I left Simon with dh for a few hours when I went to hang out with the Dalai Lama (well, to attend a dialogue in which he was a part). Simon was a wreck throughout much of the dialogue. He usually has a great time with dh but I make myself available so that they return to me if Simon wants to nurse or whatnot. Anyway... had dh not told me about the crappola of a morning that Simon had, I would have had NO idea at all. He seemed none the worse from it and we had a nice evening.

Children are people, as you know, so ask yourself about whether recovering after an upset is apt to mean that the upset was a good thing. Recently, I was having a crapper of a day and mailed out a form that was supposed to have my signature on it. I forgot to sign it. I cried over this silly mishap because my day was such a doozie and I felt like such a loser for sending off an incomplete form (and am living with a lot of other procrastination-related stresses, of which this was one). Anyway... I dealt with the emotion quickly and not too long after Simon and I were dancing it up and having a good time. I wasn't happy that I forgot to sign the form. I wouldn't think that your son's recovery means that he's of the opinion that "Gee, I'm glad that mom threatened me and then dragged me away even though she usually treats me more gently and I was extremely upset as a result of that." I've heard this said, that children need and want boundaries and limits. What I think they really want and need is parental involvement and gentle guidance, and only very rare intervention that is truly called for.

[MelMel]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama

My DC is 5 and things have been so nice lately. But, we've been through some really difficult patches lasting months. One was at about 3 and another was at 4. One thing that I've noticed with my friends (who all GD) is that there is relatively little "terrible twos" to speak of and the challenging age in early childhood is between 3-5. DC is now in a pre-K and she's the oldest. The other kids are from 3-4.5 for the most part and I'm seeing these parents struggle with the same things I did just months ago. I bring this up because I do think that most kids just go through stages where it's hard for parents and where there are no easy solutions.

exactly, I think its hard to imagine the degree of demanding a fourish year old can have ....its on a totally different level than a toddler being fussy or tantrum-y...especially with certain behavior types. i have seen certain behavior types (like my dd, who is 4 this week) farther down the line with parenting techniques that i dont like (types of GD/TCS/Mainstream alike) and the child is either stifled and unhappy or completely obnoxious to be around. this is at 6, 8, etc...

so its hard to find the solutions that work best for each child's personality. I know these big ideals work great on paper, and sounded wonderful in my head with a creative, exploring 2 year old...but I find I have to be more firm and limiting in order to help my daughter get along well with others and guide her to seeing how others feel about being told/demanded what to look at, where to sit, what hey can touch, etc....and luckily she doesnt have much of a problem with it anymore...but i know everyday changes her and we will come back to this again and again....so i find a balance between limits and letting go really keep all equal parts of my family happy.

and for the record, I would never tell anyone where to sit, and dont enjoy being told where to sit, by an adult or a child. its an unnessessary control issue on their part, and except in unique situations where the host needs to be closer to the supplies/kitchen, etc...its incredibly anal to instruct people where to sit, no matter how sweetly its done, IMO.

[napua]

My parents never hit or yelled at me. They were always gentle and loving while teaching me to be a good person at the same time. I appreciate that so much and it is because of them that I parent the way I do to my children. My dd is 5 and is the sweetest most respectful little lady ever. I get compliments on her behavior quite often. I treat her like the person she is, she deserves respect. If she does something I don't care for, we talk about it and explain how we can do things differently.

[Linda on the move]

We've always been very GD (I have yelled at my kids a couple of times, not because I thought it was a good idea, but because I'm not perfect). They are 8 and 10 and are so, so wonderful. They are joy to be around and strangers tell me how well behaved they are. It IS possible to use GD and not raise a brat!

Here is a link that I found very helpful when they were toddlers.
http://www.continuum-concept.org/rea...InControl.html

[sparkeze]

I just wanted to chime in as well, although it's probably been said before. I have seen a group of kids growing up through to preschool age and although they have all been bratty at one time or another, they are also all very generous and able to accommodate others. It's really a learning process for both child and parent because each relationship is different. I have had many many difficult moments with my DS but now he is really wonderful. I like to think that I had something to with it

And, perhaps when other people see my DS they might think that he should behave in a different way in certain situations but he's good with negotiating and tuning into others' feelings. I don't want him to blindly obey me (or anyone else "in charge") or think/act only in a accepted manner.

[daniedb]

Originally Posted by The4OfUs

...so, you might see me out with my 2-year-old, and he shouts NO!" at my face when I ask him to do something. A punitive mindset would think, "she's got to show that child he can't talk to her like that"....but I think, "I have to teach him a more gentle, acceptable way to express his displeasure." "showing him" punitively that he couldn't talk to me like that by saying "that's it, we're not going to the park because of your sass mouth" sure, that teaches him not to back talk to me if there's something else he wants to do, but doesn't teach him much more than that (other than to stuff his mad feelings because I'm not listening to him anyway)......but saying to him, "hey bud, I know you're mad...but that tone of voice is not OK. Please tell me again more calmly." Is teaching him 1) it's OK to be mad. 2) It's NOT OK to talk that way to me. 3) I will listen to him when he doesn't agree with me (I won't always change my mind, but I will consider his point of view).

I think people get so caught up in the way their kids should behave, they lose sight of the purpose of parenting, which to me is to guide your child gently into becoming a responsible, caring adult. Disregarding their feelings (even the negative ones) is hardly a good way to accomplish that.

Excellent points. Henry is fond of trying out different ways of responding when he doesn't like something, and some of those tones of voices are not something I choose to foster in him. My response is almost identical to yours. I *know* people must hear that and judge me, because my own sister, when Henry was EIGHTEEN MONTHS old, and said, "no!" in response to my request, but then immediately complied with the action, looked horrifed, shocked and repulsed and said, "You LET him say NO to you?!?!?!?" : Thankfully, since she's my sister, I just cracked up, took no offense and said, "What do you want me to do, tape his mouth shut?" But her honest response let me see that there are many people who would still insist on "proper" tones of voice from any age, forcing the child to stuff those emotions inside. In my FOO home, we were not allowed to raise our voices to our parents...no matter how heated the argument and how loud they raised their voices in frustration. So, I learned to stuff it all and as a result suffered from undiagnosed depression well into my late 20s because of it, and many other dynamics that were similar to that.

I've been around a highly permissive parent, and to me, her parenting style was as far from mine as the earth to the moon. She parented so much out of guilt that her 4-year-old daughter may stop loving her or stop feeling loved that she could *never* put any boundaries on her behavior. THe child was a miserable person to be around, mainly because she was miserable and didn't have any sense of empathy, consideration or appropriate behavior and was indulged at every turn. The kicker is that her mom would get so frustrated with her daughter's behavior that she would get fed up, her temper would rise, and she would scream really hurtful things at her and send her to her room for hours on end. I'm no longer friends with this mom, and one of the things I really struggle with is that I was not a more mature person or more secure mama and didn't step in with a more forceful opinion of her treatment of her daughter. Anyway, that's my $.02 so far.