autism: incidence in vaxed vs no-vax kids? - Page 8

[Tracy]

grypx831...

i think you and I are saying the same thing.... anyway, check your pm box.

[Sherlock007]

Originally Posted by grypx831

Isn't autism classified as a pervasive developmental disorder?

Yes. But a child with a pervasive developmental disorder, doesn't necessarily have autism. There are other pervasive developmental disorders.

Tracy is right, and I was thinking exactly the same fruit analogy.

If I buy a tin marked "Peaches", I expect to find nothing but peaches inside. I don't expect to find fruit salad.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/rboon/Per...lDisorders.htm

Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) is an umbrella term used to define a wide range disorders including a spectrum of behavioral problems commonly associated with autism.

PDDs range from 'mild' developmental delays and disorders to more serious developmental disorders such as mental retardation, cerebral palsy, and the autistic spectrum of disorders. Within each type of developmental disorder, or diagnostic category, there are numerous 'sub-types', with varying intensity of symptoms, and most importantly, considerable individual variation.

PDD can be differentiated into four main categories according to the age of onset, course of development and prognosis. The four main categories are: autism, childhood onset pervasive developmental disorder, childhood disintegrative disorder, and childhood schizophrenia.

[grypx831]

Originally Posted by Sherlock007

Yes. But a child with a pervasive developmental disorder, doesn't necessarily have autism. There are other pervasive developmental disorders.

Tracy is right, and I was thinking exactly the same fruit analogy.

If I buy a tin marked "Peaches", I expect to find nothing but peaches inside. I don't expect to find fruit salad.

I do not understand where this "fruit" thing is comming from but I'll try using it. If you look in a tin that says "peaches" (autism) you'll see peaches. If you look in a tin that says "fruit" (pervasive developmental disorders) there will be more than one type of fruit, including peaches (autism).
This whole confusion started because the study said "The rates of pervasive developmental disorders increased" and then Tracy said "but those kids didn't have autism". No, not all of them did, but it's understood that autism was among the things that increased, as was shown in about two of the quotes from the study I posted earlier, since it's a pervasive developmental disorder.

[grypx831]

Here it is, quoted again:
"The prevalence for specific pervasive developmental disorder subtypes were, for autistic disorder: 21.6 of 10000; for pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified: 32.8 of 10000; and for Asperger syndrome: 10.1 of 10000. A statistically significant linear increase in pervasive developmental disorder prevalence was noted during the study period. The prevalence of pervasive developmental disorder in thimerosal-free birth cohorts was significantly higher than that in thimerosal-exposed cohorts (82.7 of 10000 vs 59.5 of 10000)."
Pervasive developmental disorders is the GROUP of disorders, including autism. The study was about the whole group INCLUDING AUTISM. This quote shows how "pervasive developmental disorders" was broken down into specific groups, including autism - which is a pervasive developmental disorder.

Tracy saying
"My cite was from the link you provided to show that the rate of autism increased after the removal of thimerosal. However, as you said, it was referring to the increase in pervasive developmental disorders, not Autism." doesn't make any sense, since autism is included in that group, which means there was also an increase in autism.
Whether or not the study is valid or whatever, if there was an increase in pervasive developmental disorders, then autism was already understood to have increased.

[mommy & reggie]

The prevalence of pervasive developmental disorder in thimerosal-free birth cohorts was significantly higher than that in thimerosal-exposed cohorts (82.7 of 10000 vs 59.5 of 10000)."

The difference with the thimerosal-exposed cohorts is they were the younger cohort and possibly/probably got more vaccines?

This study to me suggests that the thimerosal is secondary to an immune issue related to the number of vaccines that are given. Has anyone any thoughts on this?

I don't believe that thimerosal is "safe" but I think that vaccines are implicated in autism (and other autoimmune diseases) for more reasons than the mercury issue.

[mammom]

mommy & reggie, I see that you posted in the What Causes Autism thread, but I thought I would post it here for those who haven't seen it... http://www.mothering.com/discussions...+causes+autism

I think the point of the thread is that mercury is just one part of the equation. (as you said above.)

[Tracy]

This whole confusion started because the study said "The rates of pervasive developmental disorders increased" and then Tracy said "but those kids didn't have autism". No, not all of them did, but it's understood that autism was among the things that increased, as was shown in about two of the quotes from the study I posted earlier, since it's a pervasive developmental disorder.

no, not me... I actually had no opinion about whether the kids had autism or not... I used (and maybe this was how the confusion broke out) Shodan's quote because I felt it differentiated the difference between all the groups... I wasn't supporting any theory about autism or not... just more about the definition and how even Shodan's quote, from his link...we could see how they defined the different groups and how they weren't interchangeable.. thus my confusion as to why Shodan insisted they were the same.

hope that makes sense.

[Sherlock007]

Originally Posted by Tracy

hope that makes sense.

Yes.

Shodan provided the article as proof that there wasn't a link between thimerosal and Autism. I wanted to point out that there's a huge difference between Autism and Pervasive Developmental Disorders, and that Safeminds had noted a decline in Full-Syndrome Autism since the removal of thimerosal. That's all. I wasn't discussing Fombonne's study.

The terminology is very confusing, and I believe researchers use it to their advantage. Let's say, a researcher today wanted to prove that a vaccine for Autism introduced in 1996 had been successful in reducing the number of cases, I believe he would be quoting the rate of Classical Autism and not PDDs to prove its success. And, I dare say, there would be far fewer children diagnosed with a PDD and carrying an "Autism" label.

[Sherlock007]

grypx831: I've just read through this again and wanted to add that the title of the article Shodan's link pointed to was, "No Autism-Vaccine Link, Researchers Re-Confirm" but the title of Fombonne's study was, "Pervasive Developmental Disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links With Immunizations".

[grypx831]

I give up. I've said the same thing about 50 times. Autism is a pervasive developmental disorder!

[Tracy]

Originally Posted by grypx831

I give up. I've said the same thing about 50 times. Autism is a pervasive developmental disorder!

honestly, I think we all agree that autism is a pervasive developmental disorder.


aspergers is a pervasive developmental disorder, too.

and both of them are on the ASD or the PDD.

PDD-NOS is a PDD and on the ASD.

do we agree?

[Sherlock007]

Yes.

[Sherlock007]

Have you ever wondered why the official "autism" numbers keep rising despite the removal of thimerosal? The latest "autism" rate from the UK is 1 in 100. And yet Safeminds and the Geiers have shown that the rate of autism is falling.

Both groups use the word 'autism', but the rate can't be rising and falling at the same time, so they must be referring to two different Autisms. They are. The pro-vax researchers, like Fombonne, mean "PDD". Safeminds and the Geiers mean "full-syndrome autism".

Today, PDD = Autism Spectrum Disorder, and gives ALL children (and adults) with autistic behaviours the same "Autism" label, regardless of the severity of the symptoms and regardless of whether or not they meet the full diagnostic criteria. Some have severe, moderate or mild symptoms, some only have autistic features or traits. Today, they are all being squeezed under the PDD/ASD/"Autism" Umbrella.

They had a similar problem with over-diagnosis in the 1960s. (1) But I seriously doubt that even those psychiatrists would have diagnosed geeks, nerds, eccentrics and shy people with "Autism". And I believe it is deliberate. These people would not have had an Autism label in the 1980s and 1990s.

That's what's wrong with using PDD and Autism as interchangeable terms.

There is also a problem when they do the 'Vaccines don't Cause Autism' studies. They never look at the group of once-neurotypical children with regressive late-onset autism after any vaccination, they always concentrate on MMR or thimerosal and the possible (or impossible) link with "PDD". Any vaccine or vaccines, alone or in combination and any of their ingredients, alone or in combination, might cause behavioural symptoms that are attributed to "Autism".

And not all children with "Autism" are vaccinated.

Bernard Rimland has said that before the mid 80s, two thirds of children with autism had symptoms from birth. Then from the mid 80s and throughout the 90s, one third of children with autism had symptoms from birth. So some children obviously don't need a vaccine to cause their "Autism". Their brain damage occurs before birth, or at birth, or they have a known genetic disorder that has interfered with brain development. For instance, it's very likely that the children with Tuberous Sclerosis and autism, would have the core deficits of "Autism", regardless of vaccination. (2)

So, if an unvaccinated child has TS with mental retardation, epilepsy, and deficits in socialization and communication which fit the criteria for an "Autism" label, you can't say,

"This child has "Autism". She isn't vaccinated (or isn't vaccinated with MMR or hasn't received a vaccine with thimerosal). Therefore, vaccination (MMR or thimerosal,) doesn't cause Autism."

So, when anyone says that their child has "Autism" but hasn't been vaccinated. The question then is, not just why do these children have autism, but what sort of "Autism" do they have? Is this the same Autism we saw in the 90s or is it a milder type?

What is different about completely unvaccinated children with the "Autism" label? And I really do wish someone would study them.

But they would have to exclude:

a) children born prematurely

b) children with brain damage from lack of oxygen at birth

c) children with brain damage from head injuries

d) children with known genetic disorders such as: Tuberous Sclerosis, Fragile X, Downs Syndrome, Anti-Convulsant Syndrome, Retts Syndrome, Rubella Syndrome or Fetal Alcohol Syndrome

And then carefully examine the remaining children.



(1)
http://www.mugsy.org/bishop.htm

Kanner (1965) complained of two related trends in child psychiatry. Some child psychiatrists did not accept that autism was a distinctive syndrome, and suggested it was fruitless to draw sharp dividing boundaries between autism and other types of atypical development. Others accepted that autism was a syndrome, but applied this fashionable diagnosis far too widely.

'...it became a habit to dilute the original concept of infantile autism by diagnosing it in many disparate conditions which show one or another isolated symptom found as a part feature of the overall syndrome. Almost overnight, the country seemed to be populated by a multitude of autistic children.'

Wing (1976) argued that while it is easy enough to recognise children who have the classic syndrome described by Kanner and to differentiate these from an equally classic case of developmental receptive language disorder, the borderlines of these conditions are not at all clear.

If children with these problems could be arranged in an orderly series, starting from the most autistic child at one end and extending to the child who most clearly had nothing but a developmental receptive speech disorder at the other, to say where the dividing line should be drawn would need the judgement of Solomon.

(2)

http://www.autismtoday.com/articles/...%20Complex.asp

Study of the Relationship Between Tuberous Sclerosis Complex & ASD

I do hope this clarifies things grypx831 (There's no need to respond.) .: :

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Edittted to ad.... Oi you. gerrroutta my way. My was supposed to go before ^^^^

[Sherlock007]

SOooo sorry, MT!

:

[Shodan]

Originally Posted by Sherlock007

I wanted to point out that there's a huge difference between Autism and Pervasive Developmental Disorders...

No, there isn't. Autism is a PDD.

Here's the quote again -

MONTREAL, July 5 — As the mercury-containing preservative thimerosal was removed from vaccines, and as fewer children received the mumps-measles-rubella vaccine, the rates of autism and related disorders rose among Canadian schools.

In a study of nearly 28,000 children born between 1987 and 1998, the prevalence of pervasive developmental disorders was greater in those children vaccinated after the mercury-containing compound thimerosal was completely eliminated from vaccines in Canada.

(Bolding added).

"Pervasive developmental disorders" refers to "autism and related disorders".

IOW, the rates of autism and other PDDs did not change with the reduction of thimerosal.

Regards,
Shodan

[Minoh]

Have you ever wondered why the official "autism" numbers keep rising despite the removal of thimerosal? The latest "autism" rate from the UK is 1 in 100. And yet Safeminds and the Geiers have shown that the rate of autism is falling.

Both groups use the word 'autism', but the rate can't be rising and falling at the same time, so they must be referring to two different Autisms. They are. The pro-vax researchers, like Fombonne, mean "PDD". Safeminds and the Geiers mean "full-syndrome autism".

Do many other researchers also feel that low-functioning autism numbers are decreasing? How do numbers compare in other countries (or are they studied in non-Westernized countries)?

[Sherlock007]

Originally Posted by Minoh

Do many other researchers also feel that low-functioning autism numbers are decreasing?

They wouldn't know. I don't think pro-vax researchers looking at "Autism" (PDD) and vaccines, consider that children with "Autism" have all, or some, or varying degrees of the behaviours associated with the condition, they just lump all children with the "Autism" label together. They're not looking at the groups of children with autism and how they might be different, they are looking at numbers. And it's in their best interests to not find a link between vaccines and autism, and to maintain the present myth that autism has always been as prevalent as it is today. It's just that, before the 1990s, they say, no one noticed these children.

They should really be looking for a reason for the big change in the 80s, when two-thirds of children diagnosed with autism had late-onset, regressive-type. And find out what kind of autism they had. Before that time two-thirds of children with autism had symptoms from birth. Something happened at that time.

I find it frustrating that everyone talks about "Autism" numbers and yet no one bothers to examine the once normally-developing children who lose language and skills, and become autistic. Does anyone know how many children diagnosed today have late-onset, regressive-type autism? Has there been any change in those numbers since the removal of thimerosal?

Originally Posted by Minoh

How do numbers compare in other countries (or are they studied in non-Westernized countries)?

I think it would be difficult to compare rates in other countries unless exactly the same diagnostic criteria, and exactly the same psychologists diagnosed the condition. "Autism" is a subjective diagnosis, it's not like Down's, so it depends upon who does the assessment.

For example, in the UK, 1 in 277 children have Asperger Syndrome and yet, the rate in the USA is 1 in 1000. They are not using the same criteria.

The prevalence rate most often quoted in the USA and Australia is 1 in 166, but that rate apparently originated from a study in the UK (Medical Research Council 2001), and appears to have been adopted elsewhere. However, the present UK rate according to the NAS is 1 in 109, which includes:

children of average or high ability who are impaired in their social interaction but who do not have the full picture of the triad of impairments.

they often have a difficult time at school and they need recognition, understanding and acceptance from their parents and teachers.

http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=299&a=3527

[Shodan]

Originally Posted by Sherlock007

I don't think pro-vax researchers looking at "Autism" (PDD) and vaccines, consider that children with "Autism" have all, or some, or varying degrees of the behaviours associated with the condition, they just lump all children with the "Autism" label together.

No, they don't just lump them together. That's why the cite referred to autism and other PDDs.

Regards,
Shodan

[Spy]

Originally Posted by Sherlock007

The prevalence rate most often quoted in the USA and Australia is 1 in 166, but that rate apparently originated from a study in the UK (Medical Research Council 2001), and appears to have been adopted elsewhere.

Australia has no idea about the prevalence, apparently. Different states' 'awareness groups' quote rates from '2 to 21 per 10,000 of births' to 'at least one in 250', neither of which applies to Australia or the state, they just quote various sources from elsewhere. Autism Council of Australia gives the figure of 12,000 individuals, but that's only 'members receiving services'. Yet, the medical community, not knowing how many they have, know exactly that 'there is no link with vaccination'.... :

Russia definitely doesn't know the incidence - it is not a federally notifiable thing, noone collects and analyses information, apparently it is not as important as measles