autism: incidence in vaxed vs no-vax kids? - Page 9

[Sherlock007]

Originally Posted by Spy

Australia has no idea about the prevalence, apparently. Different states' 'awareness groups' quote rates from '2 to 21 per 10,000 of births' to 'at least one in 250', neither of which applies to Australia or the state, they just quote various sources from elsewhere.

That's right. Here are some Australian sites that quote the 1 in 166 rate:

http://www.aspect.org.au/publications/WhatisAutism.pdf
Autism Spectrum Australia.

Autism Spectrum Australia (Aspect) services is the leading service provider for people with an autism spectrum disorder in Australia.

Autism spectrum disorders are lifelong disabilities that affect the way a person. Recent international research suggests that 1 in 166 people may have some form of the disorder impairment.

http://www.thestaffroom.spacemonkey....article&sid=25
The Staffroom - Discussion Forums for Teachers (Australia)

The prevalence of ASD has increased to 1 in 166 resulting in an intensified need to deliver educational services to children with autism, which are not only effective but are also inclusive (Schwartz, Sandall, McBride & Boulware, 2004, p.156).

http://www.a4.org.au/documents/updat...6-Update01.pdf.
Autism Aspergers Advocacy Australia - 2006

Children are now being diagnosed with ASD at much higher rates than in the past. Currently, at least 60 per 10,000 (1 in 166) school-leavers have received an ASD diagnosis.

The Victorian Department of Human Services is responsible for planning disability services. Its Fact Sheets For Health Professionals (see their webpage) misquotes outdated information saying … “autism occurs in 2.5 in every 10,000 children” and “Autism spectrum disorders have more recently been suggested to be 10 in every 10,000.” It seem unlikely to me that a government Department can plan services properly for people with ASD when it does not know how many there are. Unless it does not plan to provide any services.

http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/Committ...ions/sub49.pdf.
Parliament of Australia Senate

Australian data and data from overseas show around 1 in 166 children (or 6 per 1,000) are being diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder by the time they leave school.

Here's the New Zealand rate:

http://www.autismnz.org.nz/autism.php
How common are Autism Spectrum Disorders?

1 person in 100 has an Autism Spectrum Disorder, this includes people who have Asperger syndrome.

So, if we are to believe that rate, New Zealand has two and a half times the number of children with ASD than Australia - well, according to the Australian awareness groups that you referred to, Spy. But they are "outdated". How long do you think it will take them to update their sites? Next year? And then perhaps someone will announce that the Australian rate has more than doubled overnight, and conclude that vaccines could have nothing to do with autism.

Here is the Autism New Zealand slogan:

Autism - A different way of thinking

Yeah, right! My son might have a different way of thinking now, but for the first two years of his life he didn't. Then he had another vaccine that the doctor assured me was "perfectly safe". His adverse reactions were considered normal, and his gradual loss of language, change in personality and behaviour afterwards, were a coincidence. And I'm supposed to believe that nothing caused his "Autism", some children just 'get it'.

Here's a very interesting article on Ritalin and ADHD:
http://newswithviews.com/DeWeese/tom64.htm
RITALIN IS POISON By Tom DeWeese - October 24, 2006

In 1991, eligibility rules for federal education grants were changed to provide schools with $400 in annual grant money for each child diagnosed with ADHD. That same year the Department of Education formally recognized ADHD as a handicap and directed all state education officers to establish procedures to screen and identify ADHD children and provide them with special education and psychological services. As a result, the number of ADD/ADHD cases soared again.

Today more than 7,000,000 children have been labeled, stamped and registered as permanent patients of the school system. 10 to 12 percent of all boys between the ages of 6 and 14 in the United States have been diagnosed as having ADD. One in every 30 Americans between the ages of 5 and 19 years old has a prescription to Ritalin. Psychologists have never had it so good. The federal trough has been very good for their industry.

Now the industry is looking to even greater growth as pre-school toddlers are being targeted by the pill brigade. The use of psychotropic drugs, like anti-depressants and stimulants, in 2-to-4-year olds doubled or even tripled between 1991 and 1995.

I believe screening for "Autism" started around 2000.

Now, why was that?

[Sherlock007]

Results of the latest Australian research:

http://autism.anu.edu.au/pdf_files/buckley_submit2.pdf
Autism/ASD diagnosis rates in Australia - 2/8/2006 - Bob Buckley Computational Genomics Laboratory, John Curtin School of Medical Research,
The Australian National University - Canberra ACT 0200 Australia

Nationally, the ABS SDAC 2003 found 62.9 children aged 5–9 years and 80.2 children aged 10–14 years report having an ASD diagnosis.

1 in 159 primary school children
1 in 124 high school students

The current diagnosis rates in all regions of the country suggest that around 1% of Australians will be diagnosed with an ASD.

1 in 100 Australians

“Over the whole of Australia between 0.6 per cent and 1 per cent of children are affected by autism or a related disorder”

Shouldn't someone let the Australian 'Autism awareness' groups know that between 1 in 100 and 1 in 166 Australian children have "Autism", so that they can immediately update their sites?

[Spy]

Originally Posted by Sherlock007

It seem unlikely to me that a government Department can plan services properly for people with ASD when it does not know how many there are. Unless it does not plan to provide any services.

Haha : You're dead right on that one! You know, Australian states like their mottos on car number plates, each state has their own. I live in Victoria and currently the motto reads: "Victoria - the place to be". Recently I have been noticing bumper stickers reading: "Victoria - the place to be, unless you're autistic" I don't know what exactly 'services' the government provides, but the number of dissatisfied parents is alarming. Must be too busy convincing people that autism 'just happens' and 'there is no link with vaccination' to follow the incidence information...

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by Sherlock007

Shouldn't someone let the Australian 'Autism awareness' groups know that between 1 in 100 and 1 in 166 Australian children have "Autism", so that they can immediately update their sites?

But you and I both know, sherlock, that the NZ and Australian Autism Awareness groups are funded in such a way that their mouthes are zipped with duct tape.

[Sherlock007]

Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara

But you and I both know, sherlock, that the NZ and Australian Autism Awareness groups are funded in such a way that their mouthes are zipped with duct tape.

They are indeed. Boat-rocking is NOT allowed! :

[Cinder]

Originally Posted by Spy

I was looking for cases of autism in unvaccinated children for about 10 years now. Found. One so far. The number of unvaccinated people I got to know in the last 17 years is over 3 thousand. The incidence there is definitely not 1 in 166.

I'm willing to be your second. We decided before having kids to do delayed vaccination, then since our son was not developing on schedule we just kept delaying them more. He was diagnosed with autism last week and is unvaccinated...I truly believe he was born with autism, his sensory issues and such have been around since birth. I wonder about the terbutaline and magnesium sulfate I was given to stop pre-term labour.

For what it's worth my 4 year old dd started getting vaccines slowly at 1 year old and has now had her full DTaP series and MMR series (that's it...) that she should have at this point and is very much not autistic.

DH's cousins oldest child, a girl, is mildly autistic, her mom autimatically blamed it on vaccines and did not vaccinate her second, a boy, and he is severely autistic.

[annalily]

Cinder

[Sherlock007]

Originally Posted by Cinder

I'm willing to be your second. We decided before having kids to do delayed vaccination, then since our son was not developing on schedule we just kept delaying them more. He was diagnosed with autism last week and is unvaccinated...I truly believe he was born with autism, his sensory issues and such have been around since birth. I wonder about the terbutaline and magnesium sulfate I was given to stop pre-term labour.

I have read some of your past posts, Cinder, and I'm sorry that you and your son have been having such a rough time.

I know of two unvaccinated children who became autistic after taking anti-seizure medication. Both mothers blame the medication for their children's autism, not their seizures. If you read through the adverse reactions to Trileptal, for example, you can perhaps see why they came to that conclusion:

http://www.crazymeds.org/trileptalpi.pdf

Cognitive/Neuropsychiatric Adverse Events

Use of Trileptal (oxcarbazepine) has been associated with central nervous system related adverse events. The most significant of these can be classified into three general categories:
1) cognitive symptoms including psychomotor slowing, difficulty with concentration, and speech or language problems,
2) somnolence or fatigue, and
3) coordination abnormalities, including ataxia and gait disturbances

Ataxia, Nystagmus, gait abnormal, insomnia, tremor, nervousness, agitation, coordination abnormal, speech disorder, confusion, cranial injury, dysmetria, thinking abnormal, diplopia, vertigo, vision abnormal, accommodation abnormal

Special Senses: accommodation abnormal, hemianopia, mydriasis, photophobia, scotoma, taste perversion, tinnitus, xerophthalmia,

Nervous System

aggressive reaction, amnesia, anguish, anxiety, apathy, aphasia, aura, convulsions aggravated, delirium, delusion, depressed level of consciousness, dysphonia, dystonia, emotional labidity, euphoria, extra pyramidal disorder, feeling drunk, hemiplegia, hyperkinesia, hyperreflexia, hypoesthesia, hypokinesia, hypotonia, hysteria, libido decreased, manic reaction, migraine, muscle contractions involuntary, nervousness, neuralgia, oculogyric crisis, panic disorder, paralysis, paroniria, personality disorder, psychoses, ptosis, stupor, tetany.

My ds had his first seizure after his third DPT, and if he were still having seizures, I would be looking closely at the ketogenic diet. Have you seen the movie First Do No Harm? I found it very difficult to watch so I don't recommend watching it alone.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118526/plotsummary


http://www.epilepsyfoundation.org/an...reatment/diet/
Epilepsy Foundation

The ketogenic diet, which is very high in fats and low in carbohydrates, was first developed almost 80 years ago. It makes the body burn fat for energy instead of glucose. When carefully monitored by a medical team familiar with its use, the diet helps two out of three children who are tried on it and may prevent seizures completely in one out of three.

[Cinder]

Originally Posted by Sherlock007

I have read some of your past posts, Cinder, and I'm sorry that you and your son have been having such a rough time.

I know of two unvaccinated children who became autistic after taking anti-seizure medication. Both mothers blame the medication for their children's autism, not their seizures. If you read through the adverse reactions to Trileptal, for example, you can perhaps see why they came to that conclusion:

I could actually see that, but we held off on anti-seizure medication for as long as possible. He had his first seizure at 10 months old, but we just did a wait and see type of thing, but then at almost 19 months old he had 6 seizures in one day...that's the day we started trileptal. By that point, actually by about 15 months old, we were all pretty dang certain that he was autistic, he was already very speech delayed, had a lot of sensory issues (like he never once made a peep when teething, and he fell and needed stitches and never complained about pain...plus needing to be swaddled in order to calm down, not just for sleep, but in the middle of the day, still at 15 months old...just lots of stuff), and he was starting to show signs of a cognitive delay as well...

So yea, autism pre-dates the seizure medication... I honestly think for him it was genetic...my little brother (ok, not so little at 6'2" and 25 years old) is on the autism spectrum, and my dh has 2 cousins who are autistic...I don't really think it is a coincidence there...

That's not to say I don't think it's possible for anti-seizure drugs, or vaccines, or a severe illness, or any other number of things to cause autism, I just think it's not what happened in his case.

[Sherlock007]

Originally Posted by Cinder

So yea, autism pre-dates the seizure medication... I honestly think for him it was genetic...my little brother (ok, not so little at 6'2" and 25 years old) is on the autism spectrum, and my dh has 2 cousins who are autistic...I don't really think it is a coincidence there...That's not to say I don't think it's possible for anti-seizure drugs, or vaccines, or a severe illness, or any other number of things to cause autism, I just think it's not what happened in his case.

So if you think your son’s autism is genetic, why are you are still wondering about the effects of the drugs you were given to stop pre-term labor?

I’m sure you’re aware that tebutaline can increase the risk of brain damage and cognitive deficits, and magnesium sulphate can cause neuronal injury, and you say elsewhere that your son has had sensory issues and seizures since birth, so which of your son’s symptoms of autism are you attributing to genes, and which to the effects of the drugs?

If my 2 year old son couldn't remember words from one month to the next, and was taking Trileptal and Topomax which both list "speech problems" and " memory impairment" amongst side effects *reported in adults and children*, I would question what effect the drugs might be having on my infant son's language acquisition and ability to remember words. "Taste perversion" is also a listed side effect and you describe your son as a picky eater and say that sometimes he won't eat for days. That would also concern me, Cinder.

Of course, based on our family's past experience with the medical profession, we prefer alternative medicine. I already know of kids who’ve been treated homoeopathically for epilepsy and their seizures have lessened in severity and number and, in one case, have completely disappeared. And it seems that one third of epileptic children on the ketogenic diet are completely cured and one third have fewer seizures. As far as I know, anti-seizure medication hasn’t cured one single child and yet doctors will only try the diet as a last resort. I really, really don’t understand that.

When my son was two, he also had apraxia, receptive and expressive language problems, amongst a whole raft of other disorders that he didn’t have before he was brain damaged by vaccines just after his second birthday. His inability to remember words for common objects was the first indication that something had happened to his brain after vaccination.

He has the "Autism" label because of his inability to communicate effectively, because of his unnatural eye-contact, odd mannerisms, and special interests. He talks about his interests at every available opportunity because he is familiar with those subjects and having a real to-and-fro conversation is too difficult for him. His brain can’t process language fast enough and he can’t keep up. His social difficulties are the result of his communication difficulties.

The root of his problem is not something called autism but the way he sees, hears, perceives and experiences the world, and the way he responds to it, and in order to compensate for injury, his brain has had to function in a different way.

Originally Posted by Cinder

For what it's worth my 4 year old dd started getting vaccines slowly at 1 year old and has now had her full DTaP series and MMR series (that's it...) that she should have at this point and is very much not autistic.

Yes, but just because your daughter doesn't have autism, doesn’t mean that she hasn’t been affected by vaccines. You say elsewhere that your daughter has apnoeias, ADHD, and OCD. And I’m sorry to bring it up, Cinder, but I think it should be mentioned on this particular thread. Because....

Over the past 13 years I have heard many pro-vax parents say that their children have been vaccinated and there’s nothing wrong with them. And they conclude that vaccination is safe and doesn’t cause autism. Then very often they say that their children have ADD, ADHD, OCD, ODD, CAPD, SPD, bipolar, SID, speech delay, or other medical problems. Their children might not have a condition as severe as autism but many have mental disorders that either intersect with autism, or are at the very upper end of the continuum. How do these parents know for certain that vaccines were safe for their children and that their brains weren't affected?

I have also heard a number of parents say that their children have autism and they haven’t been vaccinated. And they conclude that vaccines can't cause autism. But from my experience what these parents don’t say is far more important than what they do say. For example, they don’t mention that their child has Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, Tuberous Sclerosis.... or, as in your son's case, a rough start in life and epilepsy from birth.

Anything that can damage the brain, or affect proper brain development or function, could cause symptoms of autism, so people with the same diagnostic label shouldn’t be lumped together as if they are one homogenous group because the wrong conclusions can be drawn:

“Genes are the only cause of autism”
“Vaccines are the only cause of autism.”
“Mercury is the only cause of autism”.

(Then, to make matters worse, there are the aspergers personality types who also have the “Autism” label or identify with the symptoms. )

Autism is a description of behaviours, not an entity in itself, and I think the questions that every parent with a newly diagnosed child should ask are, “Why does my child have these behaviours?”, "What behaviours or physical symptoms does my child have? and, “What can be done about them?”


http://www.epilepsyinfo.co.uk/mod.ph...u=10&page_id=5
Alternative therapies for epilepsy

http://www.kidsepilepsy.com/onetreat.asp?id=74
Children treated with Homeopathy

http://www.kidsepilepsy.com/onekid.asp?id=1951

Logan
Topamax:
effectiveness: Negative
side effects: loss of apetite, memory impairment, speech impairment, unable to sweat, eyes drifting up to left uncontrolled 1 hour after med given. We think the acidosis created by topamax caused his respiratory arrest events.

Trileptal:
positive effect: none
side effects: agitation, nystagmus (eyes vibrating and drifting), imbalance, lack of focus
comments: toxic levels reached without seizure control

http://www.matthewsfriends.org/ms.asp
MATTHEW’S STORY

Why should this diet be a last resort? I first asked about it when my son was 2 years old - it took me until he was nearly 8 to get him on it. He now has the best quality of life he has ever had. I know that he will always have special needs but the future now looks so much brighter for him, his sister and me - for us as a family.

So please remember Matthews story and the difference the Ketogenic Diet can make to a child's life and if anyone tells you that miracles never happen, please tell them from me, that they are wrong.

[DQMama]

Originally Posted by Sherlock007

His inability to remember words for common objects was the first indication that something had happened to his brain after vaccination.

This is EXACTLY what happened to my nephew. His words are slowly coming back though, and he has not yet started therapy. But his autism symptoms, which we now realize had been present for a while, are still there. He is fully vaxed so maybe an earlier vax triggered the milder symptoms (DTap? MMR?) and that final vax (rabies, unfortunately) was the last straw.

Thank you for your very thorough post. It is a reminder that the effects of modern medicine are not always immediately apparent. My son also had to have the rabies vax and every day I pray that nothing bad will come of it but I am not overly hopeful.

[Sherlock007]

Originally Posted by DQMama

This is EXACTLY what happened to my nephew. His words are slowly coming back though, and he has not yet started therapy. But his autism symptoms, which we now realize had been present for a while, are still there. He is fully vaxed so maybe an earlier vax triggered the milder symptoms (DTap? MMR?) and that final vax (rabies, unfortunately) was the last straw.

Yes, I think it's a domino effect for most children with regressive autism.

Although my son's personality, disposition and sleep habits changed for a few months after his third round of shots, his overall development had not been affected, and before his first birthday, our happy little boy had returned.

After this experience, I shouldn't have allowed him to have another vaccine but the doctor persuaded me that this particular vaccine was "perfectly safe" and absolutely necessary, 'to complete the series', or he wouldn't be 'fully protected'.

At the time, I was totally ignorant of the diseases themselves, and believed what I had been told, that my son would die or be brain-damaged if he wasn't vaccinated. Even my SIL told me that not to vaccinate my son was irresponsible, and asked me how I would feel if he was brain-damaged or died from a vaccine-preventable disease. I didn't know how to answer that.

Unfortunately, I shouldn't have had complete faith in my doctor, or paid attention to the fear-mongering of his nurses or my SIL. I should have trusted my own instincts instead. Or, even better, done some research.

My son reacted to all of his vaccines and none was taken seriously. They were called minor, insignificant and even coincidental, and because ds appeared to be fine afterwards and the health nurse told me at check-ups that he was "doing everything right", and "on or before schedule", there appeared to be no logical reason why I should still be fearful when he was 24 months and perfectly healthy. I told myself that I was being over-anxious and stupid. After all, it was only one more vaccine. But that's all that it took to do permanent damage. And there was no going back after that.

So yes, I think there were milder symptoms of brain damage, earlier on. And that showed in the distinct change in his personality and sleep habits. During those few months he was difficult to please, irritable, and he rarely smiled or chuckled. He had lost his... sparkle. My SIL described him as "sombre" at 8 months. And he was. But at the time his behaviour was attributed to teething or being over-tired or whatever...

The biggest problem with babies is that they can't tell you what's wrong, can they?

Originally Posted by DQMama

My son also had to have the rabies vax and every day I pray that nothing bad will come of it but I am not overly hopeful.

If you are worried about your son, DQMama, perhaps you could consult a homeopath. Homeopathy has helped our son immensely, and still does.

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.co...opat.htm#thuja
Homeopathic Medicine for Yourself, your Family and your Pets

Correctly prescribed homeopathic remedies can often undue the damage caused by vaccines Homeopathy is noted for its success to antidote or remove the toxic effects of vaccines and to re-establish balance in the organism and restore health. Certain homeopathic remedies can minimize vaccine damage.

[Spy]

Originally Posted by Sherlock007

Even my SIL told me that not to vaccinate my son was irresponsible, and asked me how I would feel if he was brain-damaged or died from a vaccine-preventable disease. I didn't know how to answer that.

Um... always was curious, but never had the chance to ask this question as the people who would say things like this were never in the picture years later... What is she saying now? Is it still irresponsible not to vaccinate? Is what happened to your son a pure coincidence with no connection to vaccine damage?

[DQMama]

Originally Posted by Sherlock007

Yes, I think it's a domino effect for most children with regressive autism.

Okay, this thread has become so long that I can't remember whether this has been discussed (and I'm too tired to go back right now). Is there anyone on this board, or does anyone on this board know anyone, whose child is not vaxed AT ALL and has autism that developed later on (was not apparent from birth but showed up as a sudden regression)?

I would also be interested to know, if such a child exists, whether the mother had an vax during pg (i.e. my sister had a flu shot, which contained mercury), including the RhoGam shot (which I don't know much about but have heard some people believe it is linked to autism).

Thanks, and sorry if this has been hashed out already.

[DQMama]

Originally Posted by Sherlock007

If you are worried about your son, DQMama, perhaps you could consult a homeopath. Homeopathy has helped our son immensely, and still does.

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.co...opat.htm#thuja
Homeopathic Medicine for Yourself, your Family and your Pets

Thank you. My LC recommends a homeopath and I have been considering her for this, as well as for dd's reflux. I have never looked into any type of alternative medicine before (other than buying herbs at a health food store) so it is totally new to me and I'll admit I'm a little uncertain. But it can't hurt to look into it.

[Spy]

Originally Posted by DQMama

Okay, this thread has become so long that I can't remember whether this has been discussed (and I'm too tired to go back right now). Is there anyone on this board, or does anyone on this board know anyone, whose child is not vaxed AT ALL and has autism that developed later on (was not apparent from birth but showed up as a sudden regression)?

I would also be interested to know, if such a child exists, whether the mother had an vax during pg (i.e. my sister had a flu shot, which contained mercury), including the RhoGam shot (which I don't know much about but have heard some people believe it is linked to autism).

Thanks, and sorry if this has been hashed out already.

Yes, I do know such a child, have been talking to his mother by email for quite some time (I was also interested). No vaccines or ANY drugs during pregnancy. No vaccines or ANY drugs for the child, not even a dose of paracetamol, ever. Home birth, no traumas. Regressed into something 'autistic-like' just under the age of 2 years, loss of speech, eye contact, etc, etc.
The mother (and the father, for that fact) have been fully vaccinated in their childhood, and there has been some family history of autoimmunity in the form of allerggies/asthma, some allergies are found in the child, too.
This boy is now about 3,5 years old and is recovering so well that the specialists are not so sure he is on the spectrum anymore, but there is still work to be done.

[DQMama]

Originally Posted by Spy

Yes, I do know such a child, have been talking to his mother by email for quite some time (I was also interested). No vaccines or ANY drugs during pregnancy. No vaccines or ANY drugs for the child, not even a dose of paracetamol, ever. Home birth, no traumas. Regressed into something 'autistic-like' just under the age of 2 years, loss of speech, eye contact, etc, etc.
The mother (and the father, for that fact) have been fully vaccinated in their childhood, and there has been some family history of autoimmunity in the form of allerggies/asthma, some allergies are found in the child, too.
This boy is now about 3,5 years old and is recovering so well that the specialists are not so sure he is on the spectrum anymore, but there is still work to be done.

Maybe if he had been vaxed his autism would have been much worse and he would definitely still be on the spectrum. Who knows.

But hmm, I wonder if vaxes received by a mother before pg could somehow affect her future children. I hope not...if so it could take generations to undo the damage vaxes are doing.

[Spy]

My best guess so far is, those (parents') vaccinations may have contributed to this autoimmune thing that is running in the family and that autoimmune thing eventually triggered off the autistic symptoms in the child. Admittedly a long shot, but there is not much else to blame among the things we know.
And yes, of course his mother understands that no vaccines for this boy means much better chances for recovery.

[Sherlock007]

Originally Posted by Spy

Um... always was curious, but never had the chance to ask this question as the people who would say things like this were never in the picture years later... What is she saying now? Is it still irresponsible not to vaccinate? Is what happened to your son a pure coincidence with no connection to vaccine damage?

Do I really want to answer this, Spy? I'll have to really try to keep my emotions under control!

Yes, she believes that it is still irresponsible not to vaccinate, what happened to my son is pure coincidence and has no connection whatsoever to vaccines. She has heard, a snippet on the tv news, most likely, that autism is genetic, so it must be true, and as there's none on their side of the family, it must be somewhere on mine.

This is a person who rushes her children to the doctors as soon as a new vaccine is available, whose son was taking a pacifier to school in his bag until he was seven and was referred to the school's developmental psychologist for 'problems', she wouldn't go into any more depth than that; and at the age of 12, directly after a HepB vaccine had heart arrhythmia and chronic fatigue for months. One of her daughters had septic arthritis shortly after vaccination (HiB/HepB?). But she denies any connection with vaccination, her children's illnesses were coincidental. She knows that for sure because her doctor told her so. And she also says, he's very nice.

However, other Provax people I have met, including nurses, have said this:

It's a pity about your son, but even more children would be brain injured, or die, if we didn't have vaccination.

And actually, I think that response is far worse, and much more difficult to handle. My SIL is totally ignorant, she just believes whatever she is told and repeats it. On the other hand, these people know that some children are permanently damaged or killed by vaccines, but they appear to be quite comfortable with the trade-off.

[Spy]

It's a pity about your son, but even more children would be brain injured, or die, if we didn't have vaccination.

I've heard it from doctors! Not about my son, obviously, but when I mention that vaccines can harm children, some doctors are quite comfortable admitting - yes, they can, and this is the price we have to pay, which is only fair. (fair??? )

Your SIL sounds just like my MIL . Luckily we don't have this kind of discussions, I think she is scared : My dh gets what he calls 'brainwashing attempts' from time to time, this is how I hear about it