autism: incidence in vaxed vs no-vax kids? - Page 10

[Sherlock007]

Originally Posted by Spy

I've heard it from doctors! Not about my son, obviously, but when I mention that vaccines can harm children, some doctors are quite comfortable admitting - yes, they can, and this is the price we have to pay, which is only fair. (fair??? )

Who are the "we" they are referring to, do you think? I really wonder how many of them vaccinate their own children, Spy. It's one thing to preach the Doctrine of Immunization to parents, but do all doctors and peds really practice what they preach? I know for a fact that some of them don't. And, I guess, you do too.

Do they think that their children's immune systems are superior to our childrens, or do they perhaps know somethingabout vaccines that the masses don't?

Originally Posted by Spy

Your SIL sounds just like my MIL . Luckily we don't have this kind of discussions, I think she is scared : My dh gets what he calls 'brainwashing attempts' from time to time, this is how I hear about it

Well, as a matter of fact, I have never had the chance to discuss vaccination or autism with my SIL. And I have never actually seen her engage in quiet, thoughtful discussion.

She delivers her offensive bombshells at family functions when everyone else is relaxed and off-guard, and then she retreats. Now, who wants to start a row and spoil the party? :

I have five SILs, three with children, and one who selectively vaxes. I asked my newest SIL if she wanted any vax info and sent her a couple of emails with links a while ago, but she didn't reply. Being the youngest and newest member of the family, I strongly suspect that SIL1 has been giving her a few lectures on the importance of vaxing her kids and telling her to ignore her crazy SIL who lives miles away in the country! AND my kids are homeschooled! But that's another bone of contention.

Going back to what you said about pro-vax advocates not being in the picture later, she's not really. We meet for a few hours, two or three times a year, and she has absoultely no idea what we've been through. She has visited us once in 15 years, since ds was born, and has never brought her children.

That's another problem with having a 'special needs child', family and friends can't be relied upon to give their support. And new friends tend to have special needs children themselves because they understand and make allowances. People don't realise that 'normal life' changes completely when a family member has a disability.

It's easy to be dogmatic about vaccines when life is running smoothly, and you're not living day after day with the after effects.

[Spy]

Originally Posted by Sherlock007

Who are the "we" they are referring to, do you think?

It's a 'we' with a somewhat complicated semantics, I think : Sort of a 'we decide and you pay' kind of thing...

I really wonder how many of them vaccinate their own children, Spy. It's one thing to preach the Doctrine of Immunization to parents, but do all doctors and peds really practice what they preach? I know for a fact that some of them don't. And, I guess, you do too.

Yep, I do. In fact, in Russia I quite often heard doctors saying something like: "As a doctor, I have to recommend full vaccination on schedule, but as a friend, I'd rather you didn't at all. But I will deny I said this to you if asked, I am sure you understand". I guess it depends on the level of indoctrination, there are some that do it no matter what, and any consequenses are coincidental to them. What's the name of this guy whose child is autistic but he advocates vaccination because it is safe and effective?

She delivers her offensive bombshells at family functions when everyone else is relaxed and off-guard, and then she retreats. Now, who wants to start a row and spoil the party? :

Haha. I would and then blame her for starting it Just once is usually enough.

I have five SILs, three with children, and one who selectively vaxes. I asked my newest SIL if she wanted any vax info and sent her a couple of emails with links a while ago, but she didn't reply.

I had it worse, I think. When my SIL was pregnant, she actually called me to ask what the deal is with vaccination (knowing full well my background), and we had a 2 hour conversation when she agreed with me pretty much on every point and then I emailed her bucketloads of material to read and she kept asking for more. She ended up having an elective cesarian, supplemented with formula just for fun (no bf issues whatsoever) and... yes, fully vaccinated her daughter. Go figure. :

Going back to what you said about pro-vax advocates not being in the picture later, she's not really. We meet for a few hours, two or three times a year, and she has absoultely no idea what we've been through. She has visited us once in 15 years, since ds was born, and has never brought her children.

Funny about that. I noticed that those doctors who scare people into vaccinating do not stick around for much longer either, if the child ends up disabled.

[aira]

Originally Posted by Spy

Funny about that. I noticed that those doctors who scare people into vaccinating do not stick around for much longer either, if the child ends up disabled.

Totally. Not just doctors, but friends and family. I know. They are no where to be found when things fall apart. But IME, the same vax advocates who split when things are tough keep on spewing their opinions to everyone. :

[Empress]

The condescending attitude that non-vaxing families affected by autism don't exist bothers me.

We delayed vaccinations with our daughter until she was 6 months old and then it was only one at a time, and only certain ones. She didn't receive an MMR until she was 3. She was also diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder when she was 2, and later PDD-NOS. I knew she was different from birth, she needed constant motion, refused to nurse or even cuddle, and was very sensitive to light and sound more then other babies her age.

My son was born shortly before her diagnosis, and has yet to be vaxed. He not only displays the same developmental delays related to PDD as my daughter, but also has low muscle tone and macrocephaly.

I also haven't ever had a flu shot, way overdue for a tetanus, and I have no need for Rhogam. My daughter was a c-section due to late decels and short cord, my son was a breezy VBAC with no meds. My daughter was FF, my son nursed until he was 23 months. I may have taken the occasional tylenol and eaten a tuna sandwich when pregnant, but when it comes down to it I ahve no interest in armchair quarterbacking what I may or may have not done to cause my children to be different. I truly believe this was beyond my control, including lifestyle and health choices, where it is a combination of genetics and fate.

[Sherlock007]

Originally Posted by Spy

It's a 'we' with a somewhat complicated semantics, I think : Sort of a 'we decide and you pay' kind of thing...

It's a bit like the word, 'safe'.

My dictionary tells me that safe means:

Free from danger, injury, or the threat of harm.

Now let's see....

Texas Medical Association:
http://www.texmed.org/uploadedFiles/bewise.ppt

Immunization is necessary.
Immunization is safe.

Adverse Reactions:
Common
Mild discomfort
Redness at injection site
Swelling at injection site
Low grade fever

Rare
Encephalitis
Severe allergic reaction
Convulsions/shock
Death

It doesn't look to me like they're using the same dictionary.

Originally Posted by Spy

Yep, I do. In fact, in Russia I quite often heard doctors saying something like: "As a doctor, I have to recommend full vaccination on schedule, but as a friend, I'd rather you didn't at all. But I will deny I said this to you if asked, I am sure you understand". I guess it depends on the level of indoctrination, there are some that do it no matter what, and any consequenses are coincidental to them. What's the name of this guy whose child is autistic but he advocates vaccination because it is safe and effective?

Doctor Michael Fitzpatrick? The author? He appears to have a very interesting background.

Originally Posted by Spy

I had it worse, I think. When my SIL was pregnant, she actually called me to ask what the deal is with vaccination (knowing full well my background), and we had a 2 hour conversation when she agreed with me pretty much on every point and then I emailed her bucketloads of material to read and she kept asking for more. She ended up having an elective cesarian, supplemented with formula just for fun (no bf issues whatsoever) and... yes, fully vaccinated her daughter. Go figure. :

What's food for thought for some people, doesn't seem to do a h*ll of a lot for others.

Like going on a car rally and following everyone else, losing sight of the cars in front, and then stopping to ask passers-by for directions. Even though the map you've carefully drawn and given them is sitting right there in the glove box.

No wonder some people end up at the wrong destination. That's usually when they get the map out.

Sadly, no one gave me a map.

Originally Posted by Spy

Funny about that. I noticed that those doctors who scare people into vaccinating do not stick around for much longer either, if the child ends up disabled.

You're dead right about that. He's l-o-n-g gone. But, no doubt, he can live out the rest of his life with a crystal clear conscience. After all, he's read that the symptoms of brain damage that my son exhibits, grouped together, is something called "Autism". And, well, that can't be caused by vaccines, can it? That's genetic.

[Sherlock007]

Originally Posted by Empress

The condescending attitude that non-vaxing families affected by autism don't exist bothers me.

Who said that they didn't exist? *I* know they do.

Originally Posted by Empress

We delayed vaccinations with our daughter until she was 6 months old and then it was only one at a time, and only certain ones. She didn't receive an MMR until she was 3.

Then why did you say here that your daughter hadn't been vaccinated until after her diagnosis at 2yo? :

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...4&postcount=49

Originally Posted by Empress

She was also diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder when she was 2, and later PDD-NOS. I knew she was different from birth, she needed constant motion, refused to nurse or even cuddle, and was very sensitive to light and sound more then other babies her age. My son was born shortly before her diagnosis, and has yet to be vaxed.

And yet you say here:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...8&postcount=57

And again, my kids were not vaccinated before they showed develolopmental delays (my son also has developmental delays similar to his sister, but is not on the spectrum.)

"kids" plural. :

Originally Posted by Empress

He not only displays the same developmental delays related to PDD as my daughter, but also has low muscle tone and macrocephaly.

Yes, it sounds like your son has some developmental delays related to PDD. But, as you said above, he's not on the spectrum and, only two months ago, you still didn't think that your son had an ASD:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...0&postcount=10

So are you posting here as the mother of two children with Autism? :


Do you think that PDD = Autism?

I don't. For although autism is a PDD, the reverse is not true. There are a huge number of subsets of various types of disorders and atypical disorders that fit into and intersect with Pervasive Developmental Disorder. Most are non-autistic disorders.

Originally Posted by Empress

I also haven't ever had a flu shot, way overdue for a tetanus, and I have no need for Rhogam. My daughter was a c-section due to late decels and short cord, my son was a breezy VBAC with no meds. My daughter was FF, my son nursed until he was 23 months. I may have taken the occasional tylenol and eaten a tuna sandwich when pregnant, but when it comes down to it I ahve no interest in armchair quarterbacking what I may or may have not done to cause my children to be different. I truly believe this was beyond my control, including lifestyle and health choices, where it is a combination of genetics and fate.

Yes, it may well have been beyond your control, Empress. But, even if it is far easier for you to believe that your children's behaviours can be attributed to genes or fate, you have said elsewhere, that you don't view a diagnosis of autism as a tragedy, "the idea of autism being an epidemic doesn't bother you", and yet you also say, that "a portion of children affected by ASD are from vaccinations". (1)(2)(3)

You see, I don't understand. Because I do see children with avoidable brain damage, as a tragedy. Even if it is "a portion" of children with autism, or ASD, or PDD.

Could being a healthcare worker, a phlebotomist, have anything to do with your views, do you think?




(1)http://www.mothering.com/discussions...5&postcount=30

(2)http://www.mothering.com/discussions...3&postcount=54

(3)http://www.mothering.com/discussions...5&postcount=35

[Spy]

Originally Posted by Sherlock007

But, no doubt, he can live out the rest of his life with a crystal clear conscience. After all, he's read that the symptoms of brain damage that my son exhibits, grouped together, is something called "Autism". And, well, that can't be caused by vaccines, can it? That's genetic.

Arrrrrggggghhhhhh... See, this is where I lose it.

First, show me the gene proven to be responsible
Then, claim that something is genetic

Otherwise they might as well blame the phase of the moon ten minutes before conception :

[Empress]

Originally Posted by Sherlock007

Do you think that PDD = Autism?

I don't. For although autism is a PDD, the reverse is not true. There are a huge number of subsets of various types of disorders and atypical disorders that fit into and intersect with Pervasive Developmental Disorder. Most are non-autistic disorders.

Yes, it may well have been beyond your control, Empress. But, even if it is far easier for you to believe that your children's behaviours can be attributed to genes or fate, you have said elsewhere, that you don't view a diagnosis of autism as a tragedy, "the idea of autism being an epidemic doesn't bother you", and yet you also say, that "a portion of children affected by ASD are from vaccinations".

You see, I don't understand. Because I do see children with avoidable brain damage, as a tragedy. Even if it is "a portion" of children with autism, or ASD, or PDD.

Could being a healthcare worker, a phlebotomist, have anything to do with your views, do you think?

I think your tone towards me is very contentious, and I am confused on why you felt the need to go over my previous posts in another support forum to prove me "wrong" and split hairs over my statements.

1) PDD=autism is mostly correct. I didn't feel the analogy of PDD and autism as mixed fruit earlier was quite accurate. It's more like PDD is the citrus family, and autism is a navel orange and PDD-NOS is a tangerine. They both have the characteristics of an orange but are distinct.

PDD is characterized as a delays communication and social development, and presence of stereotypical behaviors. According to the DSM IV, to be diagnosed with autistic disorder (or infantile autism/childhood autism/classic autism/Kanners autism/etc) there needs to be a significantdeviation from each category I described above with 2 at least in communication and social development. The reason my daughter is diagnosed as PDD-NOS and not autism is because she doesn't meet the criteria for a significant deviation in stereotypical behaviors. She does have them, but they are too mild to be clinically significant.

Think of it this way. My daughter and another child her age have the same delays and behaviors with this difference, the other child flaps her hands frequently and lines up her toys (my daughter BTW will line up her toys on occasion and is more interested in taking them apart them playing with them functionally, but it isn't a pervasive behavior.) My child is PDD-NOS, the other child is autistic. I don't understand why my daughter would not be included in the autism spectrum then.

Also, Retts disorder shouldn't be in the PDD category and should be considered a neurogical disorder in it's own right. It can be diagnosed by a blood test, and has many more physical problems then are found with PDD and autism. And it only affects girls, which makes it genetic.

2) We don't know what my son has. The delays we are seeing are consistent with PDD and ASD, but there is also physical signs that need to be investigated, and he has been doing weird things like regressing severely for a few weeks and then returning to his baseline. : Oh, and he is the child who has NOT been vaccinated.

3) I have conceded before that is very likely that some children affected by PDD and autism are a result of vaccinations. But I think the number of it is not as high as the proponents of the vaccination and mercury theory would like us to believe, or as low (or non-existent) as the CDC and other anti-vax/mercury theorist would like us to believe either. I do believe the answer of what is causing the "autism epidemic" lies in a mish-mash of increased diagnosis and attention to the issue, genetics, and individual response to chemicals in the environment and medications. I do think that everyone has their own agenda, and pushing hard the "It's the vaccinations! It's mercury!" is doing a disservice because more important issues in the autism community of having adequate access to early childhood interventions and supportive therapies are being neglected.

[Annikate]

Originally Posted by Empress

I do think that everyone has their own agenda, and pushing hard the "It's the vaccinations! It's mercury!" is doing a disservice because more important issues in the autism community of having adequate access to early childhood interventions and supportive therapies are being neglected.

As the mother of a mercury toxic daughter who does not have an ASD diagnosis *yet*, but who has been diagnosed with various metabolic disorders including encephalopathy, nutritional deficiencies, and enteric infections (not unlike many ASD kids), I have to strongly disagree with this statement.

I believe that the mamas on here who are raising awareness about the link btw. mercury, vaccinations and ASD are doing a great service. Otherwise, how would the information get out? Pediatricians? The media?

Yes, early interventions and support therapies are important. Absolutely. But one has nothing to do with the other.

[Empress]

Originally Posted by Annikate

Yes, early interventions and support therapies are important. Absolutely. But one has nothing to do with the other.

When states are cutting finding for ECI and insurances won't cover OT, ST, and behavioral therapy, but there is more then enough money to do study after study to prove it's not, it is vax/mercury; then yes, they do have to do with each other.

[krissi]

When states are cutting finding for ECI and insurances won't cover OT, ST, and behavioral therapy, but there is more then enough money to do study after study to prove it's not, it is vax/mercury; then yes, they do have to do with each other.

I'm not sure if one thing has much to do with the other. Federal research money doesn't come out of the states' educational budget. You could just as easily say that the Iraq war is causing the deficiencies in states' therapy funding. I think you can be in favor of additional research into vaccines and autism and also in favor of more educational funding. I am not in favor of more epidemiological studies but would favor more research on the actual clinical effects of vaccines, such as in this study:
http://www.asm.org/Media/index.asp?bid=42799

Personally, I think that too many different things are being grouped together under the label of "autism" and that is making everything more confusing. "Autism" is not a useful diagnosis and should be dropped, I think, in favor of more specific subcategories...like they're starting to realize is true of schizophrenia:
http://www.24dash.com/health/11348.htm

[prettypixels]

I'm sorry I don't have time to read all ten pages of posts on this, as I'm really interested... I'll try to come back and catch up later, just not enough hours in the day!!!!

Maybe this link has already been mentioned, regarding Japan's withdrawal of the MMR vaccine.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7076

Now it's not specifically stated in that article, but I'm assuming those children were still vax'd... just not with the three-in-one whammy of the MMR.

Since we're talking about possible causes for autism, I'm curious what you may think of the recent study showing a possible correlation (possible correlation: those are carefully chosen words on my part) between exposure to television at a young age and autism...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1017150526.htm

Always easy to make TV the bad guy in any given situation although I can't see myself shunning it entirely! Anyways, interested to hear your thoughts.

[LongIsland]

Originally Posted by prettypixels

IMaybe this link has already been mentioned, regarding Japan's withdrawal of the MMR vaccine.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7076

Regardless of whether the MMR was withdrawn, these children are still receiving the measles vaccine.

Here's a recent thread about the TV/autism study: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ghlight=autism

[caned & able]

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medi...p?newsid=38784

[Empress]

Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons is not a reputable medical journal. And the Geiers are Pied Pipers leading desperate people down a path using scare tactics and bad science. They want to try using Lupron (Lupron!) on autistic kids.

[LongIsland]

Originally Posted by Empress

Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons is not a reputable medical journal. And the Geiers are Pied Pipers leading desperate people down a path using scare tactics and bad science. They want to try using Lupron (Lupron!) on autistic kids.

If it weren't for those two "Pied Pipers," your precious child would be getting a shit load of mercury every few months. Unless of course you believe the "reputable" CDC and AAP removed/reduced thimerosal in vaccines out the goodness of their own hearts.

It was people like the Griers, Safe Minds and other groups who got the ball rolling and kept it in the public eye until the government was forced to do something about it . . . and it is those "pied pipers" who will work to get a thimerosal ban enacted in your state. Who will remain on the CDC's ass until they do something about thimerosal STILL contained in the majority of the influenza supply given to infants, children, pregnant women and your grandparents.

[Deborah]

Originally Posted by Empress

Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons is not a reputable medical journal. And the Geiers are Pied Pipers leading desperate people down a path using scare tactics and bad science. They want to try using Lupron (Lupron!) on autistic kids.

Hi Empress,
Could you give a source on the Lupron? I haven't heard that.

http://www.aapsonline.org/
Here is the home site of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, the organization behind the medical journal cited.

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) is a non-partisan professional association of physicians in all types of practices and specialties across the country.

Since 1943, AAPS has been dedicated to the highest ethical standards of the Oath of Hippocrates and to preserving the sanctity of the patient-physician relationship and the practice of private medicine.

Our motto, "omnia pro aegroto" means "all for the patient."

[LongIsland]

I suppose a journal is only "reputable" when it's strings are pulled by pharma.

We can fill three pages of this thread with links on the questionable ethical practices of the (cough) "reputable" journals.

[lyttlewon]

Originally Posted by Empress

Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons is not a reputable medical journal. And the Geiers are Pied Pipers leading desperate people down a path using scare tactics and bad science. They want to try using Lupron (Lupron!) on autistic kids.

What makes you say they aren't reputable?

[Empress]

The article linked from the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons states the Geiers compared information from the VAERS and the California Department of Developmental Services database. VAERS is an unverified database. I can type in a reaction for a child doesn't exist and for something that never happened. http://vaers.hhs.gov/info.htm Using that and extrapolating from the CDDS database they used some statistical method no one has ever heard to come to their results. And it's also boils down to the fact thimersol was removed from vaccines in late 2002, and they reported a decrease in autism cases by spring 2003. How does it decline when thimersol was just removed and most kids are diagnosed between 2-5?

This person takes a look at the same CDDS database and is finding that the cases are increasing.
http://interverbal.blogspot.com/2006...alifornia.html