autism: incidence in vaxed vs no-vax kids? - Page 13

[Sherlock007]

Originally Posted by Spy

And this is where I am getting paranoid . Why all of a sudden do we need to throw everything that is not quite right (it seems) under this umbrella and widen the definition almost... indefinitely? Are we trying to hide a few dead trees by planting a dead forest, so to speak? :

Yes.

[suschi]

I haven't read through all the posts yet, but just wanted to add....

if autism has been around all along, how do you explain the huge increase in numbers, I doubt that many went undetected, even years ago. And how do you explain the sudden need for a classroom dedicated to autistic students?

This is the first year my child's school has sent home an orientation card that reads as follows:

Orientation:

August 16th

Kind - 1:30 -Classroom
1st 10:00-Classroom
2nd 2:00-Classroom
3rd 11:00-Classroom
4th 9:00-Classroom
5th 12:00-Multipurpose Rm

Autistic- 10:00-Classroom

It's agreed that the children born in the late 90's were getting the greatest amount of mercury, and now when these children are entering K, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th grade, there is now the necessity to have a class specifically for autistic children. And some think this is all based on better diagnosis?

[NoTiGG]

So I wasn't even talking about docs -- it would, however, be interesting to see whether or not the Merck big wigs get their children shot up with the same crap they peddle.

I am curious to know the medical history of some of the Rockerfellers

[NoTiGG]

Originally Posted by Empress

The condescending attitude that non-vaxing families affected by autism don't exist bothers me.

We delayed vaccinations with our daughter until she was 6 months old and then it was only one at a time, and only certain ones. She didn't receive an MMR until she was 3. She was also diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder when she was 2, and later PDD-NOS. I knew she was different from birth, she needed constant motion, refused to nurse or even cuddle, and was very sensitive to light and sound more then other babies her age.

My son was born shortly before her diagnosis, and has yet to be vaxed. He not only displays the same developmental delays related to PDD as my daughter, but also has low muscle tone and macrocephaly.

I also haven't ever had a flu shot, way overdue for a tetanus, and I have no need for Rhogam. My daughter was a c-section due to late decels and short cord, my son was a breezy VBAC with no meds. My daughter was FF, my son nursed until he was 23 months. I may have taken the occasional tylenol and eaten a tuna sandwich when pregnant, but when it comes down to it I ahve no interest in armchair quarterbacking what I may or may have not done to cause my children to be different. I truly believe this was beyond my control, including lifestyle and health choices, where it is a combination of genetics and fate.

Blaming autism(or any illness) on Genetics is like blaming a bullet for the killing of someone... when it is really the person behind the gun. For instance, when you get sad you may cry.. and the tear ducts in your eyes will release a salty saline solution also known as tears. Technically you are crying because of genetics... without that blueprint you would not have cried. But blaming genetics on crying is about the same as blaming genetics on illness and disease.

It may have been beyond your control... and it is correct that you shouldn't blame yourself... but blaming it on fate and genetics is wrong. For instance environmental factors(anything outside your body) (you can't control.. but yet once again nothing to do with genetics) , and perhaps even more importantly dietary factors(anything inside your body) including drugs, vaccines or anything you put in your body(something you can control but something that is almost impossible to know the correct choices with) , and then of course those respective issues for your spouse as well.

It is impossible for the huge increase in autism to be from genetics. Some people may argue that it is because there is more "screening" or whatever but that is a narrow point of view... because it is not just autism.. but obesity for instance... cancer... all diseases and illnesses are increasing at a rate beyond what genetic combining alone can be accounted for. Is there some new "screening" that we are using to weigh people? Is there some new magic scale that makes some people fat all the sudden? So while it may be true that you have something from birth, it is not necessarily because of genetics alone.. but because of everything involved with what happened up until that point (the health of the parents) .

[Mama_in_Maine]

I agree it would be an interesting study....
My oldest daughter (now 4) was diagnosed with Autism 26 months.
My son was just diagnosed at 15 months with Autism as well.
My daughter was fully diagnosed except for chicken pox and my son has not received a single shot. I also had a completley natural birth (twin birth) and took no drugs or meds during pregnancy.
I am fully vaxed as well as my husband.

[Science Mom]

Originally Posted by NoTiGG

Blaming autism(or any illness) on Genetics is like blaming a bullet for the killing of someone... when it is really the person behind the gun.
It is impossible for the huge increase in autism to be from genetics. Some people may argue that it is because there is more "screening" or whatever but that is a narrow point of view... because it is not just autism.. but obesity for instance... cancer... all diseases and illnesses are increasing at a rate beyond what genetic combining alone can be accounted for. Is there some new "screening" that we are using to weigh people? Is there some new magic scale that makes some people fat all the sudden? So while it may be true that you have something from birth, it is not necessarily because of genetics alone.. but because of everything involved with what happened up until that point (the health of the parents).

Interesting analogies but irrelevant. Improved screening/awareness is most certainly contributing to the 'epidemic' of ASD. Numerous other learning and cognitive disorders and some mental retardation diagnoses have been re-assigned to ASDs. To patently attribute vaccines to the rise in ASD diagnoses for lack of all the factors involved with phenotypic expression will undoubtedly be as erroneous and misguided as the 'thimerosal causes autism' theory. How would you account for the male disparity observed with ASDs if genetics are not at all responsible? How would you account for the already identified MECP2 genetic mutations found in almost every Rhett Syndrome patient? Or single-gene mutations and polymorphisms that have been identified with other ASDs?

SM

[Tracy]

Originally Posted by suschi

I haven't read through all the posts yet, but just wanted to add....

if autism has been around all along, how do you explain the huge increase in numbers, I doubt that many went undetected, even years ago. And how do you explain the sudden need for a classroom dedicated to autistic students?

This is the first year my child's school has sent home an orientation card that reads as follows:

Orientation:

August 16th

Kind - 1:30 -Classroom
1st 10:00-Classroom
2nd 2:00-Classroom
3rd 11:00-Classroom
4th 9:00-Classroom
5th 12:00-Multipurpose Rm

Autistic- 10:00-Classroom

It's agreed that the children born in the late 90's were getting the greatest amount of mercury, and now when these children are entering K, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th grade, there is now the necessity to have a class specifically for autistic children. And some think this is all based on better diagnosis?

yeah, people tell themselves all kinds of nonesense.



anyway, The MIND institute is connected to UC Davis (medical university) and a few years ago they released a report.... good read for those who are interested...for those who just want to believe it is better DX... carry on in your magical world... whatever.

Key findings of the study are that:

• The observed increase in autism cases cannot be explained by a loosening in the criteria used to make the diagnosis.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...lnk&cd=1&gl=us

[Mom2Madolyn]

Here's a couple articles I found on the subject



http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chri...e_autistic.htm

http://*********/vaccine/olmsted.html

[bczmama]

The M.I.N.D. study has been contradicted by subsequent studies:

A study published in the journal "Pediatrics" found that
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ull/117/4/1028

"RESULTS. The average administrative prevalence of autism among children increased from 0.6 to 3.1 per 1000 from 1994 to 2003. By 2003, only 17 states had a special education prevalence of autism that was within the range of recent epidemiological estimates. During the same period, the prevalence of mental retardation and learning disabilities declined by 2.8 and 8.3 per 1000, respectively. Higher autism prevalence was significantly associated with corresponding declines in the prevalence of mental retardation and learning disabilities. The declining prevalence of mental retardation and learning disabilities from 1994 to 2003 represented a significant downward deflection in their preexisting trajectories of prevalence from 1984 to 1993. California was one of a handful of states that did not clearly follow this pattern.

CONCLUSIONS. Prevalence findings from special education data do not support the claim of an autism epidemic because the administrative prevalence figures for most states are well below epidemiological estimates. The growing administrative prevalence of autism from 1994 to 2003 was associated with corresponding declines in the usage of other diagnostic categories."

Also M.I.N.D was specifically established and funded to find causes of autism other than genetics.

[bczmama]

And another theory on the Amish "oddity" --

http://http://photoninthedarkness.bl...h-anomaly.html

In addition -- the assumption that the Amish don't vaccinate may be incorrect --

http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk/wp/?p=535

[mamakay]

Blogs again. Sigh.

[bczmama]

I could say "unsupported crack pot theory by a reporter with no expertise in the subject" again...sigh. I'm not sure why you feel the original source cited was quantitatively better than my response.

[Tracy]

Originally Posted by bczmama

The M.I.N.D. study has been contradicted by subsequent studies:

A study published in the journal "Pediatrics" found that
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ull/117/4/1028

"RESULTS. The average administrative prevalence of autism among children increased from 0.6 to 3.1 per 1000 from 1994 to 2003. By 2003, only 17 states had a special education prevalence of autism that was within the range of recent epidemiological estimates. During the same period, the prevalence of mental retardation and learning disabilities declined by 2.8 and 8.3 per 1000, respectively. Higher autism prevalence was significantly associated with corresponding declines in the prevalence of mental retardation and learning disabilities. The declining prevalence of mental retardation and learning disabilities from 1994 to 2003 represented a significant downward deflection in their preexisting trajectories of prevalence from 1984 to 1993. California was one of a handful of states that did not clearly follow this pattern.
CONCLUSIONS. Prevalence findings from special education data do not support the claim of an autism epidemic because the administrative prevalence figures for most states are well below epidemiological estimates. The growing administrative prevalence of autism from 1994 to 2003 was associated with corresponding declines in the usage of other diagnostic categories."




Also M.I.N.D was specifically established and funded to find causes of autism other than genetics.

The MIND institute is in California reflecting California stats...


additionally....

Since the NIH was pursuing autism/ genetic connections.. it only makes sense that another body of scientists look outside genetics but at the same time they do include it.


They launched Autism Phenome Project launched in 2006

http://www.dateline.ucdavis.edu/dl_detail.lasso?id=8703

Called the Autism Phenome Project, the large-scale study will enroll 1,800 children — 900 with autism, 450 with developmental delay and 450 who are typically developing — who will undergo thorough medical evaluations in addition to systematic analyses of their immune systems, brain structures and functions, genetics, environmental exposures and blood proteins. Children will be 2 to 4 years old when they begin participating in the study, and their development will continue to be evaluated over the course of several years. The first phase of the research is funded by the MIND Institute and philanthropic donations.

[Science Mom]

Originally Posted by bczmama

And another theory on the Amish "oddity" --

http://http://photoninthedarkness.bl...h-anomaly.html

bczmama, sorry a 'stinky-link' alert.

Originally Posted by bczmama

I could say "unsupported crack pot theory by a reporter with no expertise in the subject" again...sigh. I'm not sure why you feel the original source cited was quantitatively better than my response.

You could certainly say that and I would like to add some more information about the myth of no autism amongst the Amish:

http://www.clinicforspecialchildren.org/Welcome.html

Gene mutations result in specific medical conditions that are often described with non-specific terms, such as mental retardation, cerebral palsy, autism, sudden infant death, sepsis, and epilepsy. The table above lists a selection of genetic syndromes that cause developmental disorders in Amish and Mennonite children. Recognizing the underlying genetic complexity of such disorders is the first step toward developing effective treatment strategies.

See also: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/...ct/354/13/1370
The homozygous mutation of CNTNAP2 described falls under the auspices of PDD-NOS/Autism.

http://tinyurl.com/yob2a6

http://tinyurl.com/2ha5tn

The Amish are far from free of neurodevelopmental disorders and I will preempt the inevitable "But were they vaccinated" commentary by saying or rather asking, do you really think that they followed the ACIP schedule?

SM

[mamakay]

The CNTNAP2 mutation isn't exactly "autism", I don't think. I mean, it comes with macrocephaly and severe epilepsy.
And bipolar disorder is a horse of a different color alltogether.

That said, if the Olmstead stuff is evidence of a low prevalence of autism in the Amish, it's a very, very, very low quality evidence. Which means the question is just unanswered. It's an unknown. The Amish do have a lower prevalence of alzheimer's, though, so it's quite possible they have markedly different rates of other stuff, as well, I think.

[suschi]

You cannot explain away the gross increase in autism rates by better diagnosis and other lame excuses. If that was truly the case, why now the need for a specialized class specifically for autistic children?

Today there are so many autistic children there is a need for their own classroom. There is far more than just better diagnosis going on here.

[Science Mom]

Suschi, Wouldn't increased diagnoses and awareness provoke the need for special classes? Haven't they also existed all along (during our lifetimes)? Some children that were on the spectrum and adults now would have been foisted into classes with the NT children for lack of awareness and severely autistic children were kept at home or institutionalised and/or labeled mentally retarded.

SM

[lokidoki]

Originally Posted by Science Mom

Suschi, Wouldn't increased diagnoses and awareness provoke the need for special classes? Haven't they also existed all along (during our lifetimes)? Some children that were on the spectrum and adults now would have been foisted into classes with the NT children for lack of awareness and severely autistic children were kept at home or institutionalised and/or labeled mentally retarded.

SM

I hear all of this jazz about better diagnosis ~ and while I can certainly agree that a change has increased the numbers somewhat ~ who can provide data on exactly when the diagnosis spectrum changed to include other disorders (as in exactly when) and directly relate that to the differences in numbers?

I certainly grew up in the states ~ and for that matter I grew up in an elementary school that had handicapped (mentally and physically) children mainstreamed into the classrooms. I cannot ever remember in my growing up in my middle school and high school 1 in 4 boys that required a different learning style.

I also certainly agree that vaccines are not the only fault ~ there are plenty of environmental factors at blame here ~ not just vaccines. But come on ~ you cannot tell me that aluminum and mercury in childhood vaccines are absolutely not causing some neurotoxic effects on our children???

[Deborah]

I was born in 1950.

I've said it before and I'll say it again now: There weren't all those weird, nerdy kids around in the 1950s. I did, occasionally, encounter a child who had Down's or some other form of what was called, in those days, mental retardation. Never, ever, saw any behaviors that align with what is now called autism.

I think what is now called Asperger's existed, but was incredibly rare and unusual. I think what is now called autism existed, but was also incredibly rare and unusual.

I'm the librarian in a small community. Including all of the surrounding towns, there are quite a number of autistic children, enough so that there are groups of parents banded together to help each other out. All of these children, now clearly seen as autistic, would have been defined as various types of developmental disabilities 50 years ago? Amazing.

I'm also in touch with a group of communities for developmentally disabled adults and children. People I know who work at these communities have commented on the increase in autistic children in the last 20 years and the decrease (alas, due to abortion) of Down's syndrome children. So, some of these people have a 40 year history of working with children. I've never heard anyone there talk about vaccines as causation--I don't think they have a dog in this fight--but they definitely don't see the rise in autism as mere redefinition.

How could they miss it?

[suschi]

I was born in the 50's, and there was no where near the number of children needing special services in school, for autism or asthma.