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Curious - Page 9

post #161 of 221
strange thread!:

first, MITB, . I hope that things start looking up for you. I've no idea what I would do in the same situation, but I'm sure that you are making the best choices you can based on your options and a desire to do what is best for your kids.

second, I found some of the comments about sec. 8 housing to be rude. My knowledge of sec. 8 is limited to what I know from my parents, who own a house that they rent out section 8. They've said that the inspection is very, very strict. They've always kept the house up well (it's the house I grew up in) but the inspection is VERY picky. The renters they've had since going section 8 have been over all been good. Currently, they rent to a single mom with 3 teenage sons.

third, some of the stats on comments on homelessness over the last 20 years show I lack of understanding of what happened when Reagan was president. (I'm so old I actually could vote back in the 80s). Anyway, homelessness with a HUGE issue in the 80s. Reagan said it was a "lifestyle decision", and rates shot up through the 80s -- single mothers and their children were the fastest raising group of homeless, and the mentally ill weren't far behind. To point to anything Bush Sr did in office without understanding just how screwed up things were when he got elected shows a lack of understanding of the issues when he was elected.
post #162 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheFence View Post
We have been poor, so your assumptions about what I base my moral compass on are incorrect.
I have been poor as well...and if you had read my post more closely you would see that I said, "we do not base a persons moral value and compass on their lack of moolah" I didn't say a thing about you or your moral compass.
post #163 of 221
Well I didn't run away from this thread- although maybe some might wish that I would. But obsessively reading threads until 2am makes for a tired mama the next day, so I had to leave it. Been mulling over the whole idea of 'privledge' most of today...

First off, OnTheFence, I shouldn't have made sweeping generalisations about your neighbourhood, so I'm sorry to have offended you. At least I provided you with a laugh or two.

...........

It just that, to me anyway, from your descriptions seems to be an pretty tightly controlled & regulated place- which led me to think 'wow, I sure wouldn't want to live there!'- which has led me down the track of thinking about how privledged I truly am to be able to choose whether or not I want to mow the grass on the 'nature strip' for a month or three, paint my house, plant trees, etc. etc. I can choose whether or not I want to clean my kitchen this afternoon, & it doesn't matter, nobody is going to come knock on the door & check up on my housekeeping & gardening skills & potentially threaten me with eviction. I can choose what schools my kids go to, because I don't have to take them to the one down the street necessarily. And I reckon that makes me pretty darn privledeged, regardless of how I acquired it.

.......

You know, I do understand what you are saying about areas where most of the homes are public housing. We have that in Aus too, although the city where I live is too small (or maybe too affluent) to have much in the way of concentrated crime spots. That said, we do have a sprinkling of public housing in many neighbourhoods, mine included. I've got a block of ph flats across the street (they've very nice, altho they are too small for big families), some fairly low-rent private apts ($130 week for 2 bedrooms), some incredibly high rent flats ($350 week 3 bedders), & the rest is pretty much old houses in a varying states of renovation. There is also a homeless drop-in center down the street, & two drug & alcohol rehab shelters in the 'hood, as well as a shelter for homeless teens. Plus some nights quite a few people sleep rough in the park. I guess what I am trying to say is that I can't quite imagine my neighbourhood without all of it's components.... I feel like our social diversity is what keeps us from ghetto-izing certain places... something like that. And I think you & I, OnTheFence, just look at this from totally different pointsov.

Anyway. The kids are clamouring for attention, & this thread has probably been locked by now, so I'll leave it there.
post #164 of 221

Aw

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheFence View Post
I am statistically correct. Can you prove me wrong? No.
The majority of families who apply for Section 8 housing, get vouchers for RENT, are unmarried single females.
Okay, this is me. I'm an unmarried--twice divorced, actually--educated, white, intelligent, but unemployed, female single parent. I don't have a gangsta boyfriend here using my back room as his grow room or anything, nor do I have any hangers-on whatsoever, unfortunately. You, On the Fence, don't know squat about section 8 except for maybe your statistics, which are, by definition, numbers that attempt to label PEOPLE as if they are all cookie cutter copies of each other. And we aren't. And I think the analyses were set up to find some labels, not discover any.

I have a Section 8 voucher that pays 199% of my rent. I was made to apply for it by my welfare worker... I was getting tanf (289/mo cash), food stamps and Medicaid. She forced my hand; I didn't want to be MORE dependant. But crazy boyfriend's financial assistance was getting more sporadic. I applied. Then I got a job... two months later, got laid off. I'd just moved to a bigger better place. Section 8 letter came that week: YOUR TURN! Saved my A@@. Section 8 simply took over paying rent where I was already living. Tanf paid power and phone bills

I was going to port my voucher out of state to Santa Monica Beach in Los Angeles, my hometown. Going rate there for a 2 bedroom: $2400/mo. Approved to be paid by Housing. Section 8 pays the going rate. The landlord ALWAYS has the right of refusal all the way through the inspection and "rent reasonableness" analysis (they don't wnat to get gouged), and on up to the final signing. It's their choice. If/When I move, my apartment space is not a "designated sec 8" apt.

Inspection is for safety and function. If the place is not safe, or the D/W or fridge doesn't work, landlord has to fix it. It's a FREE INSPECTION. Good for everybody.

There is another type of housing, that is to move into one of the places that they own. That's not a voucher.
post #165 of 221
AH, I think I understand (sorry, I haven't lived in the US for years & have never lived in pub housing- & I haven't had a whole lot of time to read all the links. So it's good to get the distilled version).

So there are vouchers, where public housing pays (or partially pays) for privately owned housing-like OTF is describing, & there are also homes/apartments that are owned by the government (like the apartments across the street from me)?

I believe we too have something like that here- Rent Assistance,maybe? I think the gov't (somehow) discounts rent for people on a low-income, but I am not sure how it works exactly. I'm sure there are a number of people living nearby who are on rent assistance, but you just don't know who they are based on the house, yk?

And regardless, I think that our assistance program is a good thing. I think that even one person homeless is one too many (whist acknowledging that some people prefer not to sleep in a 'house', as I see it)- if you want a bed & four walls then that should be a given. A safe, secure place where you can get your 8 hours of square sleep (assuming you are not the parent of a young baby... in which case the four walls should be guaranteed the sleep is not) is a basic human right. imo.


Dinner's up for me.

Will contemplate as I eat.
post #166 of 221
LIke some other members, I'm so friggin superior to everybody else in this world that there is no better place for my children then my ivory tower, where we ride every day after school on our high horse. Also, I don't think it's my job to think about how other people get into hardship. It must be their own fault, if they were as great and superior as me, it wouldn't happen.



This thread stinks. And like the lead in MitB's house, some people don't realize they're poisoned till they're sick.
post #167 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheFence View Post
One of the reason is that we do not want our property value to go down. This tends to happen in areas where section 8 housing is. The property is normally not taken care of or kept up like it should be. Another reason is that there are people on section 8 that live lives that involve crime and drugs.
Oh my. What a horrible and WRONG judgement that is.
I know PLENTY of people on Section 8 (myself included) that have just run into hard times because of a disability (with adult or child) or loss of a job(s). We are upstanding citizens. Educated, quiet, AP, and have never done drugs or been involved with crimes. I can't stand that way of thinking. How completely disrespectful.
I used to make a good salary, had gorgeous apartments/townhomes, newer car, career, etc etc. Things happen in life and you can lose pretty much everything. It certainly doesn't suddenly make you a shady character simply because you don't have money.
Of the hundreds of people I know and have worked with, only ONE family on Section 8 was questionable. It wasn't because of their financial status, It was just the way they were (their chosen lifestyle).

Good grief.

You never know what life will throw your way. Until you are in the exact position as someone else, you will never know how you will react or what choices you will make for the greater good of your children.
post #168 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by OdeToJoy View Post
Oh my. What a horrible and WRONG judgement that is.
I know PLENTY of people on Section 8 (myself included) that have just run into hard times because of a disability (with adult or child) or loss of a job(s). We are upstanding citizens. Educated, quiet, AP, and have never done drugs or been involved with crimes. I can't stand that way of thinking. How completely disrespectful.
I used to make a good salary, had gorgeous apartments/townhomes, newer car, career, etc etc. Things happen in life and you can lose pretty much everything. It certainly doesn't suddenly make you a shady character simply because you don't have money.
Of the hundreds of people I know and have worked with, only ONE family on Section 8 was questionable. It wasn't because of their financial status, It was just the way they were (their chosen lifestyle).

Good grief.

You never know what life will throw your way. Until you are in the exact position as someone else, you will never know how you will react or what choices you will make for the greater good of your children.
I didnt say ALL people on sec8 vouchers did I? I am still standing by my statements. They are based on historical, social and statistical evidence. I can just drive around town IRL and see it personally also. I never said anything against people JUST because they were poor either. In fact I think character and moral values are not based on how much $$$ you have in the bank. As I said, I've been in poverty. My husband grew up in extreme poverty so its not like either one of us are blind, but we are also not naive in thinking that all the people on sec 8 vouchers are living these upstanding lives, when we can turn on the news or drive through neighborhoods and see for ourselves that isn't the case.
post #169 of 221
Sad, very sad.
post #170 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by OdeToJoy View Post
Oh my. What a horrible and WRONG judgement that is.
I know PLENTY of people on Section 8 (myself included) that have just run into hard times because of a disability (with adult or child) or loss of a job(s). We are upstanding citizens. Educated, quiet, AP, and have never done drugs or been involved with crimes. I can't stand that way of thinking. How completely disrespectful.
I used to make a good salary, had gorgeous apartments/townhomes, newer car, career, etc etc. Things happen in life and you can lose pretty much everything. It certainly doesn't suddenly make you a shady character simply because you don't have money.
Of the hundreds of people I know and have worked with, only ONE family on Section 8 was questionable. It wasn't because of their financial status, It was just the way they were (their chosen lifestyle).

Good grief.

You never know what life will throw your way. Until you are in the exact position as someone else, you will never know how you will react or what choices you will make for the greater good of your children.
You're a wonderful, intelligent woman who is a fantastic Mother to her son. I've laughed with you. I've cried with you. And I've moaned about men with you

Life WILL get better
post #171 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheFence View Post
I didnt say ALL people on sec8 vouchers did I? I am still standing by my statements. They are based on historical, social and statistical evidence. I can just drive around town IRL and see it personally also. I never said anything against people JUST because they were poor either. In fact I think character and moral values are not based on how much $$$ you have in the bank. As I said, I've been in poverty. My husband grew up in extreme poverty so its not like either one of us are blind, but we are also not naive in thinking that all the people on sec 8 vouchers are living these upstanding lives, when we can turn on the news or drive through neighborhoods and see for ourselves that isn't the case.
You can drive through any other neighborhood in town and see the same thing. (I'm sorry, not in your neighborhood...) There are alcoholics, pedophiles, drug users, and criminals in every city, town, or neighborhood. Just because you choose to believe its mostly the poor does not make it so.
post #172 of 221
Quote:
Another reason is that there are people on section 8 that live lives that involve crime and drugs.
Quote:
but we are also not naive in thinking that all the people on sec 8 vouchers are living these upstanding lives, when we can turn on the news or drive through neighborhoods and see for ourselves that isn't the case.
I apparently am unaware of the Scarlet Letter A that Section 8 People must wear on their foreheads in your area, IRL, because I have never been able to "turn on the news or drive through neighborhoods and see for myself that this is the case" about Section 8 People's lives that invlove crime and drugs. What are you doing driving around looking for people involved in crime and drugs?

Additionally, how does one identify a house or neighborhood as a passenger, driver in a car, or a TV viewer as Section 8 Housing? I just wasn't informed of the memo on this Obvious Public Label on "Those Kind of People's House".

Would you be so kind as to share your special way of Knowing who are Section 8 People and what makes a neighborhood look like Section 8 Housing?

Thanks for the Public Service Announcement.

No sarcasm intended, I honestly am clueless to the visible cues of Section 8 People. Is the judgment based on color perhaps?

Oh, btw, everytime I turn on the news, I see a bunch of high-profile rich celebrities being arrested for crimes and drug use. Maybe the news is different on my TV? But, I don't think it is because of their money or celebrity status that makes them criminal or drug users. I don't know how to label people's lifestyles by looking at them. We all want to know. Thanks for your sharing your intuitive means of discerning this so that we all have this elevated level of judgment by "looking at them".

Sincerely,

Pat
post #173 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by WitchyMama2 View Post
You can drive through any other neighborhood in town and see the same thing. (I'm sorry, not in your neighborhood...) There are alcoholics, pedophiles, drug users, and criminals in every city, town, or neighborhood. Just because you choose to believe its mostly the poor does not make it so.
That is not the case. Maybe its where I live, but there are many places to live that is not riddled with crime and drugs. I didnt say mostly the poor did I? NO. I said neighborhoods with mostly sec 8 housing. I love how yall seem to change my words and put your own spin on what I am saying.
Sure bad things and crime can happen anywhere, I am not denying that. However, there are places where there is little crime, and safe places to live.
post #174 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheFence View Post
My husband grew up in extreme poverty so its not like either one of us are blind, but we are also not naive in thinking that all the people on sec 8 vouchers are living these upstanding lives, when we can turn on the news or drive through neighborhoods and see for ourselves that isn't the case.
And neither are all people living in bought home areas either. My friend recently moved from her village where there is no Government housing. She moved because of the drugs being bought and sold in her area by home owners with high income, not those with a low income. Violence is common, pubs fights are the norm.

Money does not automatically mean morals and high standards.

For the record, I was born and raised on a Council estate (which is what Americans would know as Government housing). The VAST majority of individuals are law abiding citizens trying to do the best that they can for their families. The few bad apples should not be viewed as representative of the whole.
post #175 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheFence View Post
I didnt say mostly the poor did I? NO. I said neighborhoods with mostly sec 8 housing.
To be on section 8 or section 8 housing, one must be low-income which is being poor. I didn't change anything that you said, you said it yourself.
post #176 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheFence View Post
I didnt say ALL people on sec8 vouchers did I? I am still standing by my statements. They are based on historical, social and statistical evidence. I can just drive around town IRL and see it personally also. I never said anything against people JUST because they were poor either. In fact I think character and moral values are not based on how much $$$ you have in the bank. As I said, I've been in poverty. My husband grew up in extreme poverty so its not like either one of us are blind, but we are also not naive in thinking that all the people on sec 8 vouchers are living these upstanding lives, when we can turn on the news or drive through neighborhoods and see for ourselves that isn't the case.
You won't allow people with Section 8 vouchers to live in your neighborhood. That means you will not allow MITB and several other people here to live in your neighborhood. Do you really think that's okay?

Your reasons for not allowing Section 8 people to live in your neighborhood are that the property values might decrease, and crime and drugs might increase. Your evidence is questionable, but let's assume there is some validity to what you are saying. People of African American descent are also associated with higher crime and higher drug use areas. So by your own standards, you also need to keep blacks out. Asians are reportedly associated with organized crime. Russians tend to modify their houses to accomodate their family's needs, and don't have good knowledge of housing codes, so end up violating housing codes. Hispanics sometimes like to live together in large families, so they might want to convert the garage to an extra bedroom. What blasphemy to your covenants. People with lower IQ tend to work in lower-paying jobs, and thus tend to be part of a lower-socioeconomic class. Maybe you need to give people IQ tests before they move in.

Do you really still think your beliefs are acceptable and healthy?

If you get a moment, please explain how there is any difference between discriminating based on poverty vs. discrimination based on race, since there is "historical, social, and statistical" evidence to include these for the same reasons.
post #177 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
I apparently am unaware of the Scarlet Letter A that Section 8 People must wear on their foreheads in your area, IRL, because I have never been able to "turn on the news or drive through neighborhoods and see for myself that this is the case" about Section 8 People's lives that invlove crime and drugs. What are you doing driving around looking for people involved in crime and drugs?

Additionally, how does one identify a house or neighborhood as a passenger, driver in a car, or a TV viewer as Section 8 Housing? I just wasn't informed of the memo on this Obvious Public Label on "Those Kind of People's House".

Would you be so kind as to share your special way of Knowing who are Section 8 People and what makes a neighborhood look like Section 8 Housing?

Thanks for the Public Service Announcement.

No sarcasm intended, I honestly am clueless to the visible cues of Section 8 People. Is the judgment based on color perhaps?

Oh, btw, everytime I turn on the news, I see a bunch of high-profile rich celebrities being arrested for crimes and drug use. Maybe the news is different on my TV? But, I don't think it is because of their money or celebrity status that makes them criminal or drug users. I don't know how to label people's lifestyles by looking at them. We all want to know. Thanks for your sharing your intuitive means of discerning this so that we all have this elevated level of judgment by "looking at them".

Sincerely,

Pat
Let's see Pat, my husband used to be a teacher in inner city schools, mostly surrounded by Section 8 housing or govt housing. He did this for 7 years. Every day there was drug deals, drive by shootings, rape, murder, and robbery. This was openly visible in the streets. When your students come to class and one of the reasons there homework isnt done is because they were under the bed while a drive by was going by -- well you tend to be a little jaded.
Also, in neighborhoods where investors bought a good deal of property and decided to use this for section 8 vouchers, those neighborhoods considerably went down, property rates were lower, crime was higher, etc. Having family friends that live in govt housing in our area and visiting them, you would have to be blind not to see that most the properties are in poor condition. Its often not unusual to visually see fighting, domestic violence, hear gun shots, or see people doing, selling drugs. Even with all these "guidelines" the homes are trashed - and I am kinda curious at when and how many inspections are done each year. Maybe its because I live in a port city, but most the crime here takes place in the inner city in neighborhoods that are predominately govt subsidized in some way. In fact many of these neighborhoods have "nicknames" that are widely used, one would be "birdville". This ENTIRE community is govt subsidized housing, and nearly two dozen people are murdered there each year.
The year my brother was murdered (he was kidnapped and shot at a crack house and then dumped elsewhere) 58 people were murdered here. 2/3 of those murder victims happened in inner city locations where most the homes have some sort of govt subsidies.
I could care less what color you are. As I said I live in a pretty diverse neighborhood where whites are a minority. I gave you a reference to entire book that discusses this very issue on relation to poverty and crime. Call it stereotypical, prejudice, whatever -- however I think neighborhoods have the right, owners have the right to deny the govt access into our homes, and deny the use of section 8 vouchers to be used for rent. Especially when statistical and historical evidence indicates that neighborhoods with govt subsidized housing has higher crime and the property values are extremely low.
post #178 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by WitchyMama2 View Post
To be on section 8 or section 8 housing, one must be low-income which is being poor. I didn't change anything that you said, you said it yourself.
whatever.
post #179 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imogen View Post
Money does not automatically mean morals and high standards.
I never said that. Nope. Nadda. Didn't even imply that.
post #180 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheFence View Post
I never said that. Nope. Nadda. Didn't even imply that.
I think that you're quite mistaken. Your entire attitude throughout the thread has implied exactly that.

Section 8 = low income = low income areas have higher crime levels = thus having lower morals and standards = more crime
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