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Curious about Pro-Circ'ers - Page 3

post #41 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini View Post
I get what you are saying as well, but they way you approach will determine whether or not you reach someone or shut them down.

I am not saying the CaC should be for 'making people not feel so bad about formerly circ'ing.' I am saying that some posters on CaC completely eliminate people from feeling like they can explore the issue and not be nailed to the wall.

When I first started exploring the issue, I told the MDC member I was PM'ing that I wasn't going to talk on CaC b/c the poster seemed pretty brutal. After talking with him, I finally posted and I did get nailed. It really just shut me back down and had I not had Yoshua to IM with, I would have completely quit asking questions. Funny thing about Yoshua.....he can present it in a way that is completely honest and not give you any leeway to excuse your way out of it, but he can do it without being insulting and demeaning.

That to me is the best tactic to take.
I have to agree with Houdini on this one. I've read that the CAC forum is one of those that's most avoided by other posters on MDC because of the strident, hard-line tone used here. The problem is, folks, if we're too hard line, we're going to turn off more people than we'll convert. If we do that, we won't save baby boys.
In the year and a half that I've been here, I've seen this board change from a helpful, advice-giving board for expectant and new mothers to a forum for intactivists only. We aren't going to save many baby boys if all we're doing is preaching to the choir.
post #42 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini View Post
This is exactly what turns someone's ear off when they come to this site.
What is? That I believe FGM and MGM are horrible things?

I've never attacked anyone on this board. But I also do not believe that circ is OK because of reason A but not because reason B.

If that indeed is requirement of this board then I am obviously in wrong place.

Is FGM OK at MDC if it is done for reasons A? What about spanking?

Why is it that beliefs I represent(circ is always wrong)should not be voiced out on this board. Isn't this case against circumcision?

This is my 'holy' text - please read it and if indeed it is somehow against user agreement or not OK on this board, let me know so I can stay away;

http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/finland2003/
post #43 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by kxsiven View Post
What is? That I believe FGM and MGM are horrible things?

I've never attacked anyone on this board. But I also do not believe that circ is OK because of reason A but not because reason B.

If that indeed is requirement of this board then I am obviously in wrong place.

Is FGM OK at MDC if it is done for reasons A? What about spanking?

Why is it that beliefs I represent(circ is always wrong)should not be voiced out on this board. Isn't this case against circumcision?

This is my 'holy' text - please read it and if indeed it is somehow against user agreement or not OK on this board, let me know so I can stay away;

http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/finland2003/

Just want to say I agree with you 100% on this.
post #44 of 72
In the six years that I've been here, I've seen it change from a place where a friend was run off the forum forever because he expressed anger that he was circ'd. Because that could hurt some mommies' feelings. Are you suggesting that is where we go back to?

(I have not changed my method of posting in those six years!)
post #45 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by kxsiven View Post
What is? That I believe FGM and MGM are horrible things?

I've never attacked anyone on this board. But I also do not believe that circ is OK because of reason A but not because reason B.

If that indeed is requirement of this board then I am obviously in wrong place.

Is FGM OK at MDC if it is done for reasons A? What about spanking?

Why is it that beliefs I represent(circ is always wrong)should not be voiced out on this board. Isn't this case against circumcision?

This is my 'holy' text - please read it and if indeed it is somehow against user agreement or not OK on this board, let me know so I can stay away;

http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/finland2003/
I am not saying that believing these are horrible things is wrong. I am saying that by throwing into the mix when talking someone who has circ'd you will immediately turn them off. The reason is b/c they will turn that into you believe they are horrible people for doing it.

I circ'd my boys. Do I regret it? Hell, yes. Would I ever circ again? Hell, no.

Did this board aid in my journey towards intactivism? Hell, no.

Because people come here to look for information even if they aren't posting or asking questions. They see the attitude towards circ'ers and they don't want to be crucified, so they leave. It really is sad, because there are numerous people on this board who have amazing insight and knowledge. Those people won't be heard through all the negativity though.

The reason I am where I am today in my journey towards intactivism as nothing to do with this board and everything to do with Yoshua who was able to teach and guide without making me feel horrible about myself. Trust me, I did that very well all on my own.
post #46 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTail View Post
Sometimes it is appropriate to be gentle, & sometimes it is appropriate to be strong.

I don't suggest purposefully hurting people's feelings, but I advocate the way I advocate (& personally, when people get so gentle I'm not even sure what point they are trying to make, I find it condescending & don't react as well as with a 'no B.S. approach'.)

I get what you're saying, but diluting the message lest feelings get hurt because it's too much for some to handle- I think just the seed that the idea is 'too much' for them to think about, planted in their heads, may do more good than all the equivicating in the world.

When I need to approach someone irl, I'm both gentle & straightforward. I come here not just to advocate, but to vent about having to hear the crap excuses I hear spewed, & tell the TRUTH.

I understand not wanting to hear/talk in depth about something that upsets me- possibly why it took me 6 years to apply to the 'surviving abuse' forum.

But I wouldn't go there & ask people not to talk candidly about what they suffered from abusive parents, because I used to spank my dd & it makes me feel ooky to hear about it. That's not the forum for 'make TT not feel so bad about formerly spanking'. The CAC is not the forum for 'making people not feel so bad about formerly circ'ing'. Do you kwim?

The truth HURTS. And no more so, than when it comes to torture that would cause Amnesty International to plotz if was done to convicted mass murderers. But hey, they're just babies, & we own them. Right? :
I LIKE this approach though!! Maybe I'm tougher than others, I dont know........this is how a person helped me through the ordeal of my first son being circ'ed. She didn't sugar coat anything and didn't BS me (and subsequently question my intelligence). She told me flat out what the deal was but also said "momma, when we know better we do better". She helped me so much to deal with my emotions and how to handle the situation the next time around. I'm much better equipped to deal with the barrage of idiots who think I should circ my next son!
post #47 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTail View Post
In the six years that I've been here, I've seen it change from a place where a friend was run off the forum forever because he expressed anger that he was circ'd. Because that could hurt some mommies' feelings. Are you suggesting that is where we go back to?

(I have not changed my method of posting in those six years!)
Honestly, my suggestion would obviously be a middle ground. You had a friend who was run off for good b/c they expressed anger. Now it seems to be the other extreme and you have people run off for questioning why.

Personally, I would never suggest this forum to someone who is looking for answers about intactness.
post #48 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by rowansmomma View Post
I LIKE this approach though!! Maybe I'm tougher than others, I dont know........this is how a person helped me through the ordeal of my first son being circ'ed. She didn't sugar coat anything and didn't BS me (and subsequently question my intelligence). She told me flat out what the deal was but also said "momma, when we know better we do better". She helped me so much to deal with my emotions and how to handle the situation the next time around. I'm much better equipped to deal with the barrage of idiots who think I should circ my next son!
I am glad this approach worked for you, but be aware there are just as many people who aren't helped by this approach and we need to find a way to reach them as well.
post #49 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini View Post
Honestly, my suggestion would obviously be a middle ground. You had a friend who was run off for good b/c they expressed anger. Now it seems to be the other extreme and you have people run off for questioning why.
A sincere question - am I missing something here? Who was run off for questioning circ? When did this happen, what was the context? I'm fairly regular here, at least skimming most every thread, if not posting a lot...and I'm having a hard time figuring out where people are seeing all this "running off" and animosity.
I see a lot of passion, I see a lot of very blunt, very frank, very non-sugar coated words, but I guess I don't see that as a bad thing....circ is what it is, candy coating it isn't going to make it a "better" procedure. IMO, talking about it like it's "a parent's choice" and "respecting a family's decision" is doing nothing more than perpetuating non-truths, just like "it's just a little snip" has done and continues to do. It's an barbaric thing - no reason to shoot the messenger, it just *IS*.
:
post #50 of 72
If it wasnt for frank being gentle with me and Cornflower I would still be pro-circ.


Someone on here, if you go back to my first 5 posts you can find out who, called me a troll and got about 5 or 10 people to attack me because I was asking the difference between circ and intact and how I was pro family choice.



Without frank gently guiding me, as I did Houdini, theres no way in hell I would be anti-circ today.


Today I just browse this forum. Why? Because I wait for someone to jump down the throat of someone asking questions so I can pm that person asking questions letting them know that the people jumping down their throat have th best intentions but not always the right tactics and I am always available via PM to talk to if they have any questions.



That is sad. But I know I have personally affected alot of people to be anti-circ by doing this. Houdini included.
post #51 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamohumm6 View Post
A sincere question - am I missing something here? Who was run off for questioning circ? When did this happen, what was the context? I'm fairly regular here, at least skimming most every thread, if not posting a lot...and I'm having a hard time figuring out where people are seeing all this "running off" and animosity.

I see a lot of passion, I see a lot of very blunt, very frank, very non-sugar coated words, but I guess I don't see that as a bad thing....circ is what it is, candy coating it isn't going to make it a "better" procedure. IMO, talking about it like it's "a parent's choice" and "respecting a family's decision" is doing nothing more than perpetuating non-truths, just like "it's just a little snip" has done and continues to do. It's an barbaric thing - no reason to shoot the messenger, it just *IS*.
:
I can speak for myself. When I asked about circ v intact, I was nailed by a few posters and was very close to saying forget it. Yoshua helped me past that and I did keep talking.

I know several people personally who wouldn't post on here to ask questions b/c of the approach they see. I know one poster who I pm'd after she was crucified for asking questions on here. I was offering my story if she was interested. I never heard back from her.
post #52 of 72
Yes, I can quote exactly who & when someone was run off merely for expressing anger (really! and I can recall much of the exchange, my head is weird for capturing details like that), but I can't think of anybody who was 'run off' for asking questions that honestly wanted answers.
post #53 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamohumm6 View Post
A sincere question - am I missing something here? Who was run off for questioning circ? When did this happen, what was the context? I'm fairly regular here, at least skimming most every thread, if not posting a lot...and I'm having a hard time figuring out where people are seeing all this "running off" and animosity.
I see a lot of passion, I see a lot of very blunt, very frank, very non-sugar coated words, but I guess I don't see that as a bad thing....circ is what it is, candy coating it isn't going to make it a "better" procedure. IMO, talking about it like it's "a parent's choice" and "respecting a family's decision" is doing nothing more than perpetuating non-truths, just like "it's just a little snip" has done and continues to do. It's an barbaric thing - no reason to shoot the messenger, it just *IS*.
:


It happens all the time. I talk to people via pms who do not want to ask questions because of the cut throat attitude some people have about circ. Not that the attitude is wrong, i full heartedly believe that those tactics work in some cases. but the more subdued people asking questions will run from people calling circumcision genital mutilation. Even though it IS by definition, they just cant grasp it yet because it is so socially ingrained in them to be not only 'ok' but expected by their family to do so to their children.
post #54 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTail View Post
Yes, I can quote exactly who & when someone was run off merely for expressing anger (really! and I can recall much of the exchange, my head is weird for capturing details like that), but I can't think of anybody who was 'run off' for asking questions that honestly wanted answers.
You do now.

I was run-off from here for asking questions. The only reason I came back was b/c of Yoshua.
post #55 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTail View Post
Yes, I can quote exactly who & when someone was run off merely for expressing anger (really! and I can recall much of the exchange, my head is weird for capturing details like that), but I can't think of anybody who was 'run off' for asking questions that honestly wanted answers.

Houdini was run off.

She is now anti-circ


She wold not be anti-circ if I didn't pm her insessently about it for about 2 or 3 weeks and eventually forcing her to talk to me via instant messenger for direct responses.


Houdini is a case of being run off, and pm's bringing her back.
post #56 of 72
Here is your thread back.


Please do not discuss other bulletin boards in a negative manner.

Also, we do not permit the condemnation of, or debate regarding *religious* circ in CAC.
post #57 of 72
ok, so I can't go back to sleep...

Anyhow, I am glad the thread is back. I gotta say that I love this board, because it has inspired me to be more passionate about this subject. I was pretty mainstream back in the day, and visiting certain forums, I would put on my armor and jump in. Mommas who feel passionate about their particular subject, are pretty blunt. I was fine with this, and in fact inspired me to change.

If I wanted sugar coated information, I probably would be visiting another mainstream discussion board. If you really want to know the answers, I would think most people would find the anwers to their question, whether it is here or someplace else. I would hope that some perceived negative responses, would not change that persons path to change.

I don't recall anybody ever being attacked for regretting circumcising and wanting to know some answers, but maybe I missed something?

Maybe a subforum for the newbies or other mommas, who are sensitive and want some information would be helpful. I guess I don't have any answers, except I think most of our goals is too educate, and not make parents feel bad. There is already alot of eggwalking on this forum (jmho), so I guess I don't get it.
post #58 of 72
Can't get much clearer than "The Case AGAINST Circumcision." Wouldn't be a place I would go for sugar-coating, personally even if I never read a post here.

That said... I do agree that sometimes folks get jumped on a bit too quickly. It's a hard jump to go from "it's perfectly normal" to "it's barbaric mutilation" iykwim. I think a tough approach is perfectly acceptable (and in many - maybe even most cases desirable) as long as we give the questioners adequate TIME to process what they are being told. Expecting people to change their minds after five or ten minutes of reading is unrealistic. It could take several days or weeks of studying this issue for people to accept it as it truly is and not as they have been brainwashed to think it is. Accepting that one has been either brainwashed or mutilated oneself is a pretty difficult thing, IME.

It took YEARS for me to put together what I knew about circumcision and actually look into the issue. I knew once I met dh and started dating him that I would never circumcise a son, but that had more to do with the fact that dh is intact and that's the default. I didn't know how terrible it really was and it took me at least a week once I started to look into it to realise just the tip of the iceburg about how dreadful this practise is... not to mention, I would have to take breaks from reading about circumcision because what I read made me physically ill sometimes.

What I'm trying to say (and I should be in bed right now... so I apologise if it's not coming out clearly) is that sometimes it takes time to process something this disturbing and so ingrained in our culture. No censorship, but time... and patience.

BTW, the post that called Yoshua's intents into question has been deleted due to excellent modding so there's no point in going back and looking for it... as I obviously did, being terribly curious : :

love and peace.
post #59 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini View Post
I am not advocating circ, but I am advocating gentleness when talking with someone about circ. It is hard to reconcile making the decision to circ your baby and then find out all the information that you didn't locate or look for after it's done and it's too late. It is a huge leap to accepting you were wrong and you surgically altered your son for reasons that were completely wrong. It is really hard to forgive yourself for doing that to your own son.
This is precisely why the practice should be illegal. Full stop.

I guess I see the point about people being scared away here. It's just that it's black and white: it IS barbaric, it IS mutilation. For me intactness is the default, the normal thing. From this perspective (Hi Kxsiven! ) it is exceedingly difficult to understand the need for "sugarcoating". I can accept no reason for infant circumcision.

Houdini: I remember your first days here. They must have been very difficult. Thanks Yoshua for making her stay.

Having said that, I have also seen cases of "newbies" who have circumcised, who come to ask and are not attacked. It may have to do with the tone of the new poster, I don't know - please don't take this badly, Houdini. I guess it's not easy to calculate exactly what effect one's words will have - on either of the two positions: as a new poster asking questions, as an "oldie" trying to educate.

I suppose we're all learning as we go. I do get the feeling that there's consensus on this board on the crucial message: when you know better, you do better.
post #60 of 72
I wonder if the reason some posters are harsh with their words and quick to jump someone asking questions is because they lack the experience of being a mother who circ'd.

My boys are all circ'd and the journey to intactivism was a really difficult one in which I had to accept what I had done while attempting to forgive myself. It is very difficult to understand what mamas go through in the process of forgiving themselves. Nothing anyone does can change the damage done to my sons. Nothing will ever put them put to their whole self. It takes a very strong person to be able to reconcile themself with that fact. To come to a place where you are told questions are fine, then to be jumped on really just makes the journey more difficult. Trust me, it is difficult enough.

Throwing around words such as mutilation and barbaric when talking with a mother who has done just those things, just shuts them down. I do agree these are correct descriptions and that is exactly what I did to my boys, but in the first weeks hearing it worded in that manner made want to forget the whole journey. It was easier to just turn a deaf ear than to hear or accept that I had an unnecessary procedure done on my boys.

Maybe that is why I am coming from an angle of gentleness and watching how things are worded. Try putting yourself in the position of the other parent and try to imagine you had circ'd your child, then magnify that by 1000 and you may just start to understand the guilt and pain we go through during this process.
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