You have to be consistent ??

[DevaMajka]

Just curious about the thoughts on that.
I seem to see it everywhere- if there's anything that most parenting philosophies can agree on, its that consistency is good.
But I don't really get it. I mean, I say "no" to one situation one time, and "yes" the next, depending on, well, everything- how I feel, the time of day, blah blah blah. I don't stick with arbitrary no's (If I've said it before I realize it's not important). I stick with legitimate ones. We can jump on the couch at home, but not at someone else's house.
Ds seems just fine with the whole thing. I can't see where anything would be better if I were more consistent. It's never been a problem to, say, tell him that he can't jump on the couch somewhere else. He seems to just get it.
The only thing I'm consistent about, is that I stick with what's important- meaning, if its a legitimate thing, I'll enforce it. I am quite concerned about how his actions affect others, and not letting any harm come to anyone. But then maybe that's what's important. If I don't like something, I let him know.

But even the "no hitting" rule has exceptions- he has recently learned that he can't kick me because it hurts, but he can kick me a "little bit" (his words) because that doesn't hurt.

Anyways, just wondering the different views on this.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I share your views on it.

[Dal]

I think there are at least two reasons that are often given to support the consistency thesis. The most prevalent one is that the parent is using a behavioristic approach to parenting. In relation to this, it seems that the importance given to consistency is more about setting limits rather than about applying positive reinforcements. On this theory, if they are inconsistent in doling out a punishment, the child becomes more apt to keep at the undesired behaviour -- since the punishment is what is supposed to teach the child, rather than the child's own developing awareness, understanding, and ability to control her or his actions and so on. Children need to know that their parents mean business. They won't get away with doing something they've been warned about. I mentioned recently in another thread that this reminds me of cult mind control and even of forms of torture or terrorism (not to say that it's equivalent to major forms of torture or terrorism, of course, but I'm seeing some common elements that may be worth thinking about, at least for me).

I also sense a negative view of children behind this view: if you give children some leeway and flexibility, their rotten little natures come tumbling out. Their negative impulses need to be thwarted completely lest they take hold of the child and continue to grow. It's as if children have no internal desire to be sociable, helpful, or to get along with others. One sad thing about this approach (or I should say another sad thing about it): How to know if the child is doing the right thing because it's right, or because she fears a punishment or wants a biscuit? I've heard parents take full responsibility for their child's actions, saying that they act as they do to please the parents and to avoid disappointing them. Knowing someone had that attitude about me, I'd feel LESS inclined to do the right thing, feeling angry that the parent was going to take credit for it and insult me by assuming that my motives were external.

The second reason for supporting consistency that comes to mind relates to routines. The theory here is that children need a lot of order in their lives in order to feel safe and secure. What they need, imo, is love and a well-founded trust in their mom/dad/caregiver. While I think routines work well for some people, and there may be a value of having a least some basic routines, their value is overestimated. One thing they help to do is to control children. I read recently that almost all daycare centers implement a huge amount of regimentation throughout the day. This may be the best way to operate a daycare with 20 children and 4 adults, I have no idea. One key reason for this regimentation is that it helps to keep the children under control. In so doing, though, it saps freedom from their lives. Who says that Johnny wants to paint when it's time for everyone to do a craft? Maybe Jill doesn't like story time and would rather build a tower? Maybe Cathy is not at all hungry at noon and Sue isn't the least bit tired at 2. Despite their preferences, children who are subjected to inflexible routines are apt to give up on trying to honour their personal preferences, knowing that they have no real choice but to follow along.

I have absolutely no doubt that Simon feels very safe and secure even though our lives are rather disorganized. That is just one anecdote though, but I'll add that when we try to implement more structure into our lives, I've found that the happiness in our house tends to drop rather than increase. It's nice to do what we feel like doing rather than living by the clock, and even though we do this, some things usually happen at somewhat the same time every day (e.g., breakfast, dinner, reading books).

That is what comes to mind when I aim to sort out why others think that consistency is important and why I think this claim has been overdone. I haven't given it a lot of thought to it yet though, so take what I say as, um a tentative response. I'm not sure why I feel compelled to add that, but I do.

[mamaduck]

I think it depends on the child's temperment and also on the issue you are talking about. Having different rules in different homes is fine and good -- kids are bright enough to grasp that.

Some children need very consistant routines. Some don't. I have one of each sort.

What I do think parents need to be consistant about it is follow through when it comes to addressing reoccuring behavior problems. Ie. - if your child is hitting, it is helpful to come up with a strategy for addressing it, and then be "consistant" about implementing your strategy. It is unhelpful to be inconsistnat -- meaning it is counter-productive to turn a blind eye and let the behavior go when you are tired and don't feel like dealing with it, and then turn around and be very strict or harsh suddenly because you can't cope anymore! KWIM? THAT is the sort of inconsistancy that most people refer to as "poor parenting." And I do think it is hard on the kids.

[Twocoolboys]

I think consistency is important. I think your rule of jumping on the couch at home but not at other's houses IS a consistent rule. We have the same rule ourselves. It wouldn't be consistent if you let him jump on your couch one day, but not the next, but allowed it again the next day. Or let him jump on Aunt Marge's couch but not Aunt Sally's.

And, for other things, it depends on the child, the situation, and the mood at the time. Some things just aren't worth having a "rule" about. Sometimes it's ok for my ds throw things, depending on what that thing is and where we are. Sometimes it's not. I think things like that are a case by case situation.

Other things though, I am consistent with. For example, I will never ever get either of my kids a snack in the middle of the night. And, they have asked. I just tell them to go back to sleep, which they do. But, I think that is a case of 'if you do it once, you'll be doing it forever' (well, maybe not forever, but you know what I mean - lol).

Also, the age of the child matters too. My 7 year old will understand that some things are a 'just this once' thing. But, my 2 year old won't. If we allow sweets right before dinner for whatever reason, like if Grammy came by at that time with a treat for each of them, my 7 year old would be ok the next day with not having one. My 2 year old would be looking for his treat and probably have a tantrum. So, that is a consistent no treats time.

So, my philosophy is consistency with flexibility - lol.

[Twocoolboys]

Originally Posted by mamaduck

What I do think parents need to be consistant about it is follow through when it comes to addressing reoccuring behavior problems. Ie. - if your child is hitting, it is helpful to come up with a strategy for addressing it, and then be "consistant" about implementing your strategy. It is unhelpful to be inconsistnat -- meaning it is counter-productive to turn a blind eye and let the behavior go when you are tired and don't feel like dealing with it, and then turn around and be very strict or harsh suddenly because you can't cope anymore! KWIM? THAT is the sort of inconsistancy that most people refer to as "poor parenting." And I do think it is hard on the kids.

I agree with this, for sure!

[zeldamomma]

Originally Posted by mamaduck

What I do think parents need to be consistant about it is follow through when it comes to addressing reoccuring behavior problems. Ie. - if your child is hitting, it is helpful to come up with a strategy for addressing it, and then be "consistant" about implementing your strategy. It is unhelpful to be inconsistnat -- meaning it is counter-productive to turn a blind eye and let the behavior go when you are tired and don't feel like dealing with it, and then turn around and be very strict or harsh suddenly because you can't cope anymore! KWIM? THAT is the sort of inconsistancy that most people refer to as "poor parenting." And I do think it is hard on the kids.

I've seen this kind of parenting more than I'd like. It doesn't work very well, and sadly, the parents I know who do it seem to attribute their disciplinary problems to not yet having found a strict enough punishment. SIGH :

ZM

[katallen]

I think that consistency is important but that children can also diferentiate between something being okay at your house but not someone else's house or one parent will let them do it and the other parent won't. Consistency isn't a blanket no to ever being able to do something, it is a blanket no to being able to do something that you don't ever want them doing. Inconsistency is telling them they can't do something one day and then they can a few days later but then no they can't now and then they can in a continual off and on way. Saying no and sticking to it every time for a behavior that push you over the edge as a mom is consistency.

Also, I would have to guess from the fact that you let your child kick you that there are a lot of things that you are able to let slide without losing your temper that the vast majority of mothers would not be able to take. I try to only say no to the things that push my buttons or harm other people and I follow through consistently with those things, that is not arbitrary in my opinion, it is something I do to keep my cool and parent the way I want to parent. Kudos to you for having less buttons to be pushed.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

I prefer to think of it not so much as inconsistency and more about being flexible. Different situations call for different responses, even though the situations might look similar, there might be small differences that make the behavior okay in one setting but not in another (DD can jump on the couch at home but not at grandma's). I think it takes longer to learn to distinguish the less obvious differences, but just as they eventually learn the difference between a horse and a zebra, or a rooster and chicken, they will eventually learn the more subtle distinctions as well. I think its important to explain why things are different in each situation.

But one problem with being too inconsistent is that instead of trying to figure out and follow the rules for each situation, because the rules are so different, the child starts looking to the parent for advice as to what is okay and not okay in each situation. This isn't a bad thing but too much of always "looking to the parent to tell me what is okay" can result in the child becoming dependent on authority and not having the confidence to know for himself what is okay or not okay. The rules may seem too confusing to the child to ever figure out and he begins to not trust himself to know what to do.

[rmzbm]

I think it depends on the child. My 8 YO DS, for example, is VERY easy going. We are not at all consistant with him, or the others for that matter. He gets it though. If he was always yelling how unfair we are we'd be more consistant.

[DevaMajka]

I agree with you Dal. I'm sure its a behaviorist thing. If you're not consistent, those little rascals with run all over you, with their desire to be anti-social and all. :

Originally Posted by mamaduck

meaning it is counter-productive to turn a blind eye and let the behavior go when you are tired and don't feel like dealing with it, and then turn around and be very strict or harsh suddenly because you can't cope anymore! KWIM? THAT is the sort of inconsistancy that most people refer to as "poor parenting." And I do think it is hard on the kids.

I agree with that, totally. Yeah, I'm "consistent" about those important things, things that can cause harm to others.
The thing I'm not consistent with is WHAT can cause harm to others. I don't blanketly disallow all types of "hitting", for example. Not all "hitting" hurts or annoys others. So patting (sometimes quite hard, but she likes it, I swear) our one dog is allowed. Hitting her in a way that she doesn't like is not. Patting the other dog (even gently) is generally not ok. But she lets him know. lol

Also, I would have to guess from the fact that you let your child kick you that there are a lot of things that you are able to let slide without losing your temper that the vast majority of mothers would not be able to take. I try to only say no to the things that push my buttons or harm other people and I follow through consistently with those things, that is not arbitrary in my opinion, it is something I do to keep my cool and parent the way I want to parent. Kudos to you for having less buttons to be pushed.

We were sitting nursing, and he was swinging his feet. He just had some energy to get out I think! If it had been kicking out of anger or deliberately hurting me, I would have been really angry! I told him it hurt and I didn't like to be kicked. He "tested" me by doing it gently- just touching me with his feet. So I thought about it, and told him that kicking *me* a "little bit" is ok (but not in my face, because I don't like feet in my face period lol), because it doesn't hurt or bother me.
ITA with what I bolded. I guess I am consistent in that regard. I don't, like mamaduck said, just let it go, even though it bothers me, until I've had way too much and I explode.
So, I'm consistent in the fact that I enforce legitimate boundaries. But those boundaries can change, depending. And I always give reasons why something is ok in this situation, and not in another. Ds is well aware that patting Brooke is ok, but patting Shiloh is usually not.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Deva33mommy

So, I'm consistent in the fact that I enforce legitimate boundaries. But those boundaries can change, depending. And I always give reasons why something is ok in this situation, and not in another.

I'm a big believer in being consistent, but I think that always giving reasons why something is ok in one situation, but not another is being consistent. I do believe kids need some boundaries to feel secure, in addition to needing certain boundaries to be secure (eg. don't touch the hot stove, don't play in traffic, yk?). Situations change, and rigidly enforcing some rule, just for the sake of the rule, isn't "consistent", imo - it's rigid.

These are probably all stupid examples, but...

DS1 understands, and has for a long time, that we don't buy many sweets. But, he also knows that cookies and marshmallows are going to come along with us on a camping trip. That's not inconsistent...it's different rules for different situations.

My kids know that I hate having anything moving near my face - that never changes. DD also knows that ds1 doesn't mind it, so she do her little waves hand wiggles and stuff with him. That's not inconsistent - it's understanding that mommy and big brother are different people.

DD gets a plastic "glass" when we visit mom (very hard ceramic tile in the kitchen). But, at Thanksgiving dinner, she got a wineglass. She gets that the wineglass was a special occasion thing...nothing to do with inconsistency.

Even the local farm - she can pet the goats and bunnies. She can feed the ducks, chickens and bunnies. She can't feed the goats. She can't pet the cows, horses or donkeys. She understands that they're all different.

She has to wear pants and full shoes (sneakers or boots) to the farm, but can wear sandals to the corner store. That seems arbitrary, but I've explained it to her. (At the farm, she's walking around in the goat pen, and the "Rabbitat", so I don't want her bare feet getting full of rabbit pellets and such.)

On the other hand, we're pretty consistent about other things - eat what you asked for before you get something else, etc. I don't consider it behaviouristic. Those are just the house rules. I don't make exceptions, because that opens the "Why can't I? You let me yesterday" can of worms. If I can't give her (dd is the only one this is relvant to at the moment) a good reason for an exception, I don't make the exception. If I can give her a good reason (eg. company is over, it's Christmas, we're on vacation), then I don't see it as being inconsistent.

[crl]

I do think consistency is important.

In thinking about rules, I think it's partly a matter of being fair to the kid. I like for my child to understand what's okay and what's not. I think the rules can be more subtle as a child gets older and depending on the child.

For example, when DS was about 18 months old we made a no throwing in the house rule. He was throwing hard things, like leggo duplos, at people. We tried no throwing at people and we tried no throwing hard things. He just did not get it. So we said no throwing in the house. And he got it. An older child, or a different child, might have understood the more subtle rules that we tried first.

I also think routine is very valuable to some children. My child can be quite anxious about what is happening next. We talk about what the plan is over and over again. At his preschool (he's in special education, in an inclusion program), he actually puts together his picture schedule each day. He took this task over on his own after he learned the routine. So, obviously, he places a high priority on routine.

Catherine

[Fuamami]

Well, I think it's important to be consistent too. I don't think it's all for behaviorist reasons, I think it's just more courteous to your children. For example, my ds LOVES to throw things. Some things he can throw, some he can't. He has a very light plastic ball which he can throw anywhere but in the kitchen, according to me. So this morning I get out of the shower and he and ds are playing "catch" in the kitchen with the ball, with the french press and hot coffee and bowls of yogurt and all the other morning flotsam all over the place. So now I try to enforce my rule of not playing ball in the kitchen, which dh was not aware of, and little ds's feelings are very hurt. Fortunately we distracted him by continuing the game in the living room, but all that could have been avoided with consistency. That's my plug.

And, I think that if you sometimes enforce rules and sometimes don't enforce them, your children:

a) Lose trust and confidence in you
b) Feel off-balance because they never know what to expect
c) Usually try to break the rule first, instead of following it first

I think this lead to lots of frustration.

Okay, now that I've said all that, I'll admit that I'm inconsistent with my dd quite often. But it seems like the older she gets, the less it is about consistency and the more it is about changing situations, good reasons and negotiation. For example, I tell her I'll read her two chapters from her book before her nap. Something very exciting's happening, so she wants me to read another one, so I do. This has never really caused problems for me, since I think she's old enough to understand WHY there are special situations.

[Rivka5]

Originally Posted by mamaduck

It is unhelpful to be inconsistant -- meaning it is counter-productive to turn a blind eye and let the behavior go when you are tired and don't feel like dealing with it, and then turn around and be very strict or harsh suddenly because you can't cope anymore! KWIM? THAT is the sort of inconsistancy that most people refer to as "poor parenting." And I do think it is hard on the kids.

Yes, that's pretty much a textbook description of the kind of parenting that's common in families of children with clinically significant behavior problems. The parents veer unpredictably between being very lax and very harsh. Something might be okay 10 times in a row, and then met with a spanking. Or a parent might start off holding firm about something, and then give in if the tantrum gets bad enough. Kids wind up very confused.

Teaching your child about appropriate contexts for various activities, and filling them in on your reasoning about why a general rule does or doesn't apply, isn't in the same category at all.

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by Rivka5

Yes, that's pretty much a textbook description of the kind of parenting that's common in families of children with clinically significant behavior problems. The parents veer unpredictably between being very lax and very harsh. Something might be okay 10 times in a row, and then met with a spanking. Or a parent might start off holding firm about something, and then give in if the tantrum gets bad enough. Kids wind up very confused.

Teaching your child about appropriate contexts for various activities, and filling them in on your reasoning about why a general rule does or doesn't apply, isn't in the same category at all.

Yeah, that.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by natensarah

And, I think that if you sometimes enforce rules and sometimes don't enforce them, your children:

a) Lose trust and confidence in you
b) Feel off-balance because they never know what to expect
c) Usually try to break the rule first, instead of following it first

Perhaps that's the key- the only "rule" I have is that ds can't harm others, and has to be "respectful" of them. Being respectful of them obviously has a LOT of room for interpretation, but I basically mean that, say, even if running toward the dog doesn't HURT her, she doesn't like it, and he can't do it. Even if screaming doesn't hurt someone, it can be really irritating, depending on the situation. So, in those situations where it is irritating someone, he'd have to stop.
Hmmm...so I guess I'm VERY consistent if I look at it in those terms. There isn't ever a time that I would allow ds to harm someone, or to be disrespectful of their right to be in peace (well, that's open to interpretation too I guess. If someone is irritated by ds's obviously age appropriate behavior, it would be different. but I digress)

hmmm... lots to think about here...

[irinam]

Good points brought up...

So far when I thought about it, the only "trully" consistant things in our family are our beliefs. Not religious beliefs (we are not religious), but moral, ethical, humane, etc.,

I do not have to "make" myself be consistant about them, they just are (beliefs that is)

So according to those imbedded beliefs, I teach my kids that we don't harm others, that we take care of ourselves and others, etc.,

We don't really have "rules". We have things that we do because of our beliefs. When something is done NOT according to our inner goodness (yes, people have this inner goodness ) - in the moment of distress for example; we come back and talk about it. Rather consistently...

Anyways, I guess what I am trying to say - if I have to "make" myself to be consistant about something, I question the neccessity of this consistency

Lots of stuff in our lives (everybody's, not just our family) is structurized already. I for one want some flexibility now and then

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by Deva33mommy

Perhaps that's the key- the only "rule" I have is that ds can't harm others, and has to be "respectful" of them.

Well, I guess I would think of that as more of a guideline, and less of a rule. Or, as Irinam said, a belief, or a moral. So it's a process of learning the ways that we show respect to our fellow human beings in various situations. And that is definitely inconsistent! Like if you went to hear someone speak, you have to sit very quietly and listen, but if you're at a baseball game, you should stand up and yell a lot.

What I was thinking about when I thought about a rule was more along the lines of getting buckled in your carseat. My SIL often takes her infants out of their carseats and nurses them on long drives. So, not surprisingly, her kids HATE their car seats and put up a huge fuss over them. If they put up a big enough fuss, they get to get out. This is, I guess, basically what Rivka5 is talking about too.

I also have to say that, IME, when training an animal, the goal is to eliminate the need for the treat completely. This happens when the animal begins to take the command for granted. For example, you give your dog a treat every time he sits when you say sit, eventually, he doesn't do it for the treat, but because the habit is ingrained in his brain. I think this can be done without rewards, as well. Most of the horse training I have done has been done this way, just consistently showing the horse over and over what they should do, until they really get it. So my point here is that this also works with kids, and is not un-gentle, IMO. I don't think it should be overused, but if every time you get in the car, you are buckled into your car seat, I don't think it ever occurs to you to NOT get buckled in, at least not at the younger ages. Or, if every time you stand up in the bath tub, you are gently sat back down, eventually you will think that you MUST sit in the tub. Again, at least until you're 2.5 . And I think that probably makes life easier for everyone.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by irinam

Good points brought up...

So far when I thought about it, the only "trully" consistant things in our family are our beliefs. Not religious beliefs (we are not religious), but moral, ethical, humane, etc.,

I do not have to "make" myself be consistant about them, they just are (beliefs that is)

So according to those imbedded beliefs, I teach my kids that we don't harm others, that we take care of ourselves and others, etc.,

We don't really have "rules". We have things that we do because of our beliefs. When something is done NOT according to our inner goodness (yes, people have this inner goodness ) - in the moment of distress for example; we come back and talk about it. Rather consistently...

Anyways, I guess what I am trying to say - if I have to "make" myself to be consistant about something, I question the neccessity of this consistency

Lots of stuff in our lives (everybody's, not just our family) is structurized already. I for one want some flexibility now and then

Hey, I should have just waited for you to post, then said a big fat :
It would have saved this thread from my difficult to decipher babble. lol