Observed a RIC yesterday - Page 3

[serendipity22]

passing the buck

The Dr. said "don't me mad at me, blame your parents".

This is passing the buck. Most parent hardly know what circumcision is. The person doing is the most responsible.

Before I left, I asked the Dr why she did it if she's against it and she really didn't have an answer except to say that it's her job.

She is not against it enough.

I find it hard to believe that this birthing center is opposed to RIC but they do it anyway.

If they do it anyway then they are not opposed to it.

That everyone on staff loathes the procedures but they don't change policy.

If they loathed the procedures enough they would change policy.

[nyveronica]

This morning is lecture-- it always starts with us being able to recount our expriences at clinical....

Thank you everyone for helping me crystalize my thinking: about the Dr., why it's done even though everyone seemed so opposed, letting my classmates know how truly horrible it is.

To reiterate: I will never back down from nursing. Those of you who have suggested I do so, or do something so blatently illegal that I would surely never get a license, I think are being far too reactionary (NOT about the procedure, about my observation of it). I NEED to be an RN who is ADAMANTLY OPPOSED to circ.

[homemademomma]

[Intactguy57]

Hey I was chilled out, you don't want to see me when I am really mad. But I have to say that when I read post like the original op it is so easy to understand why baby boy mutilation continues in the US, stories like this and knowing who the most influential group of people are in the medical profession and their beliefs it is no wonder thousands of babys are cut each day. I am not telling her to get out of nursing at all but before I would do something or even watch something that goes totally against my will I would do something, I could not stand there and turn a blind eye to what is happening. What would these people have done if the parents had wanted to circ a baby girl and you know some people want that done also but they can't do it because it is against the law but they can go to a back ally chopper and get it done. It is so ease to understand how this keeps happening over and over, it is because so many well meaning people continue to close their eyes and turn away. I don't think that circ for males will ever stop because to many are willing to do like this doctor did and do it anyway, only when people take a stand will it stop! Turn up the elevator music and tell him that it's not your fault and be really kind after all that justifies what you are doing.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by JoyNChrist

However, if you had never observed a circumcision, your input might not carry as much weight with the doctors and parents you hope to influence in the future. You can now personally attest to the unnecessary pain that is inflicted when an infant is circumcised. Referencing all the studies in the world, showing 100 pictures of the procedure, providing tons of literature and information - none of this will have the same effect as you being able to say, "I've seen it for myself. It's horrible. I've never been able to get it out of my head. You DO NOT need to do this to your baby."

I agree with that.

But I also have to say, that if a doc had refused to circ my ds, there is no way he'd be circed! So, yes, it would have made us think, and come to an obviously better conclusion.
(Then again, any amount of strongly no-circ info would have done the trick too- including a nurse who wasn't afraid to speak against circ!)

[Bartock]

That doc should just start refusing to do it!!

[celia]

Didn't read all the posts- I just wanted to say to the OP....

I have one DD, no boys yet- but we are thinking about number 2. I don't read this board much and I really was leaning TOWARDS circumcising if I ever had a boy- tradition. My mom's family is Jewish all though not particulary devout, but that also played into it. Anyway- I stumbled on your post and I have to say... I'm seriously rethinking. Thanks for posting that.

[smeep]

That's how all circumcisions should be done. Of course they should NEVER be done, but for those whose parents just refuse to think otherwise, I would rather a poor baby have it done by someone who really cared for them than by some heartless jerk that just wanted the extra cash.

[Intactguy57]

Yea; I bet this doctor did this circ for FREE just so she could be soothing, kind and loving after all she said it was not her fault that she was skinning his penis without his consent all the way to the bank. Bullsh*#@!! What about a nationwide BOYCOTT of circumcision by the nurses and staff, now this would make difference in a hurry, ain't going to happen to much money involved.

[calngavinsmom]

Originally Posted by JoyNChrist

No, you might not have failed the program if you had refused to observe.

However, if you had never observed a circumcision, your input might not carry as much weight with the doctors and parents you hope to influence in the future. You can now personally attest to the unnecessary pain that is inflicted when an infant is circumcised. Referencing all the studies in the world, showing 100 pictures of the procedure, providing tons of literature and information - none of this will have the same effect as you being able to say, "I've seen it for myself. It's horrible. I've never been able to get it out of my head. You DO NOT need to do this to your baby."

Like it or not, personal experience always carries more weight than any reference material we can provide. Because you now have this experience, parents are more likely to trust your opinion. Doctors and other nurses are more likely to take your views seriously, since you have the experience to back them up.

Never give up nursing - you're in a unique position to influence both parents and healthcare providers. And I know that you're getting a lot of negativity about your participation, but I truly believe you did the right thing. It will help your cause now that you vividly understand what you're up against. (Of course, now I wouldn't suggest that you participate in/observe any more RIC's, since you already have the experience.)

For what it's worth, I think you did the right thing, sister, and you're in a position to really influence change in the medical field.

: Very well put.

IMO the doctor who is supposedly "opposed" to RIC but still did it is the one who is ultimately responsible. Think of the weight a doctor carries with the average mainstream parent. For her to come out and say "I will not circumcise your baby because it is unethical and not medically sound" would be HUGE!

Tara

[Lula's Mom]

I think all this "the baby can tell you care, so at least it's better that way" stuff is utter BS. That baby does not care if you hug him before and after. It does not make it any easier to bear that there's someone stroking his arm or speaking soothingly to him, or freaking apologizing and telling him it's not her fault she's about to pick up an instrument of torture in her own hand and rip, crush, tear, slice his penis! What she did is cowardly and unethical.

Heather Micaela and Mamma Mia, both of you said something along the lines of the baby would be circumcised no matter what. I really doubt that. If the doctor says no, then the circumcision is no longer inevitable. That's the whole point.

This doctor, more than anyone else in the world, had a chance to change the parents' minds, to educate them. She could have sat with them and told them the truth about it: how the surgery is done. How it hurts. How it removes almost half the erogenous tissue of the penis. How it will change his sex life forever. The risk of complications. The violation of a newborn's trust. So many things, but most of all, how she refuses to do circumcisions because it's not anyone's right to amputate part of someone else's body like that!

But she didn't. She may have counseled them about it, but how much weight does her opinion carry when she'll still do it if the parents want? That makes her view of it seem really weak. The parents HAD to be thinking, 'if it was that bad, she wouldn't do it, so it's just another parenting choice.' She has to take a real stand against it.

[camomof5]

How so very sad! It is sad that so many people do this to their babies!

[darsmama]

First off, I think you guys need to get off NYVeronica's butt. SHE IS NOT TO BLAME FOR WHAT HAPPENED. ok?
If she would've refused, they would've just found someone in her place.

NY: I am so sorry you had to witness that, but now you will be able to tell parents in all truthfullness, that you've seen circ done and.....THE TRUTH.
This will make you an asset to the "Normal Penis For All!" community. I appreciate it.

[DevaMajka]

Just wanted to add another thought about "if a doc refuses to circ, the parents will just go somewhere else"
First children are kinda an abstract idea. I don't know exactly how to say that, but I mean that when you are pg with a first child, you don't REALLY "get it" about them. Unless you are extremely aware of your instincts, societies views on kids just seem like the way things are.
So, if a doc refuses to perform a circ in the hospital, it may just give those parents time to see their child as he really is, and to get in touch with their insticts. Thereby realizing that its insane to have cosmetic surgery on a newborn!!!
Plus, some people would just not get around to it.

I can't see any negatives that could come out of saying NO to doing circs. Even if the parents still wanted to do it, they'd go to another doc.

[nyveronica]

To clarify a few things that probably weren't clear in the OP:

My assessments of the parties involved in the circ were in no way meant to garner sympathy for the tech, the Dr. or myself. It was simply me recounting the experience. Just because the procedure was and continues to be barbaric, doesn't mean that there aren't human components to it and that's what I was attempting to convey.

Also, I volunteered. I needed to see it for myself so I could, without doubt, counsel my future patients about its complete ugliness. Regardless of the adults in the room and their emotions, the bottom line is that it is a violent act on a helpless baby.

I am pretty hard to insult so I'm not taking any of the negative posts badly-- Like I said, this is all you know about me, so I can't be surprised.

But I think at this point you may be wasting your vitriol on me. I'm on your side. And eventually, I'll be on the inside and able to affect some change.

[Lula's Mom]

Originally Posted by darsmama

First off, I think you guys need to get off NYVeronica's butt. SHE IS NOT TO BLAME FOR WHAT HAPPENED. ok?
If she would've refused, they would've just found someone in her place.

Are you talking to me? I meant the doctor in my post, not Veronica.

[pdx.mothernurture]

Originally Posted by AutumnBreeze

Ok, I don't post in here, but I have to post to this.

I am so sorry that little boy had that done. BUT, I'm glad it was done with respect so to speak. They waited to strap him down, they spoke to him, said "Im sorry" to him.

Poor baby.

You're post as sort of left me stunned, and I'm struggling to find the right words to express how it made me feel. There is nothing respectful about circumcising a newborn without medical indications. He was sexually violated. That is not, in any way, shape, or form respect.

We can say we're glad his suffering was minimized with anesthetic, we're glad that they didn't further abuse him by strapping him down any longer than was necessary to skin his perfectly healthy, normal penis...but it really doesn't make it any less of a crime against humanity.

When I read what you wrote, I thought, is there any respectful way to circumcise a little girl? Or, to rape a woman? Does an injection or a pill slipped into an alcoholic beverage or softly spoken, condescending, empty "I'm sorries" make an act respectful...or, respectable?

IntactGuy has a point, and I hear him loud and clear and as someone who stood idly by while babies were cut in my presense in the past, even preparing the room and setting out the instruments I feel a very heavy, dark shame upon my heart. My complacency was wrong, and for that I share some of the guilt and the blood-stained hands.

I take some comfort in the fact that at the time, I didn't really understand the issue. Witnessing what I did was actually the catalyst for my research and eventual activism. At the time I was assisting, I considered it a parental choice-a crappy parental choice-but a parental choice nonetheless. I knew it was painful and not medically necessary, but I didn't have a grasp on the anatomy, physiology, or long-term consequences...in a similar way that medical organization policy statments don't generally take into account the actual purpose and functions of what's being amputated. I think it was Frank, back on ivillage, years ago, who finally got through to me that I could-and should-refuse to assist on the grounds of conscientious objection. Shortly thereafter, I changed jobs.

Having been in that position, having come as far as I have, knowing that each person evolves at a different pace and that we are all at different stages of circumcision enlightenment, I have trouble judging someone for something they may not yet understand on the level I have come to.

For some, witnessing such an act that would have almost certainly happened anyway (unless they took matters into their own hands and did something illegal, like kidnapping the child) is the event that catapults them into serious activism. She seems to be a conscientious woman seeking truth and was clearly deeply disturbed by what she witnessed. She since met with the physician privately to discuss it. I think her heart is guiding her in the right direction, and I look forward to hearing where she goes from here... ... ...

Jen

[pdx.mothernurture]

One more thing to add:

"After this one family chose to circumcise, I realized that I couldn't attend a birth if the parents were going to mutilate. From then on, it's been simple. I have had one family back in the early 90's switch primary care provider for their birth because I couldn't persuade them to keep their baby whole but all others have changed their plans to circumcise rather than lose my midwifery services. Since then I have been suggesting to other midwives and doctors that if we don't assist, circumcision can't persist."

-Jeannine Parvati Baker
http://pros.orange.fr/tansen/bioethi...ta/jpbaker.htm

Wouldn't that line from her quote make a lovely bumpersticker, t-shirt, or button for nurses?

See also: Nurses for the Rights of the Child

Jen

[nyveronica]

Originally Posted by pdx.mothernurture

One more thing to add:

"After this one family chose to circumcise, I realized that I couldn't attend a birth if the parents were going to mutilate. From then on, it's been simple. I have had one family back in the early 90's switch primary care provider for their birth because I couldn't persuade them to keep their baby whole but all others have changed their plans to circumcise rather than lose my midwifery services. Since then I have been suggesting to other midwives and doctors that if we don't assist, circumcision can't persist."

-Jeannine Parvati Baker
http://pros.orange.fr/tansen/bioethi...ta/jpbaker.htm

Wouldn't that line from her quote make a lovely bumpersticker, t-shirt, or button for nurses?

See also: Nurses for the Rights of the Child

Jen

Thank you for these links

[greenwest]

I couldn't imagine seeing a baby go through that....