Pros and Cons of Time outs

[mLeroux]

Hello ladies,

Ok so I have a friend who does time outs with her two kids they are 5 and 3. I have 3 girls 4, 2.5 and 1 year old. I have never done time outs with them. the only thing I have ever done that I could consider a time out is if things are really over the edge melt down I will stick either one in an old car seat and lock them in there with the belt. But I can count the times I have done it to them. I think 3 times to the oldest and 2 to the youngest in their whole life and I wil just leave then there for like a minute then take them out.

So when ever my girls seem to start acting up about anything she tells me 'why dont you give them a time out?' I dont know why I dont like, I cant seem to put my finger on it but I just dont prefer to do it. I have seen with her that if they do something she does not like, like hit eachother, scream at eachother or at her that she gives them a time out and seperates them for a while until they are ready to appologize to whom ever they hurt. If they hurt mom then they will come to her after a while and say 'I love you mom' give her a kiss and walk away stomping their feet and with a mad face. I have seen this for myself. My friend really thinks this is a good thing, that they come to her and cry and tell her they love her till she 'accepts' them again.

I dont know if I am wrong or what but if my kids look like they want to fight or do I just redirect them, see whats wrong (maybe hungry, tired) or just plain ask them 'Whats the problem?' They usually tell me. My dh used to want to make them appologize to eachother but I stopped him and told him not to force them to do that if they did not want to. I want it to come from themselves not because I make them appologize. they resume playing with in seconds anyway and do love eachother...


what does everyone think about time outs?


TIA!!!

Michelle

[Alstrameria]

I guess they work for some, I've not had the chance to observe like you have. One friend threatens time-outs, but doesn't follow through so it becomes useless.

Your friend sounds a little passive-aggressive about it though. Is it really working if your kids don't learn anything, just recite the magic phrase and go about their business? Also, time-outs can quickly escalate to a physical thing if the child doesn't agree to stay in the prescribed spot.

We redirect for now, dd is only 21 months though. I am trying to set the stage for time-ins by letting her know she can have a break if she wants. Someday I'd like her to be able to remove herself and know that I will go with her if she needs me. I'd rather talk about it, than send my child away.

I have to say the car-seat thing sounds a little bizarre though. Am I misunderstanding, or do you actually strap them in so they can't move? I've never heard of this!

I'm very much looking forward to the responses!

Jen

[mLeroux]

about the car seat...

Originally posted by Alstrameria

I have to say the car-seat thing sounds a little bizarre though. Am I misunderstanding, or do you actually strap them in so they can't move? I've never heard of this!

I'm very much looking forward to the responses!

Jen

Yeah I guess it can sound weird if you have never seen it implemented : The instances when it has happened is when its been one of those loooong days with no naps and I dont know what to do and of all the crazy thoughts I get in to my head the only thing I could think of was putting my dd in this container to just 'contain' her for a minute while I gather my wits. I guess I wanted her to be there where I was (not in another room or corner) but I just wanted her to be STILL. So am I hypocritical now? Was that acutally a time out? LIke I said its not something I do all the time its only been like a handful of times...

About what you said it possibly escalating if the child does not comply...this is what actually happened the day she was here. Her ds was tired and/or hungry. SO it was time to eat the pizza we ordered and he was more playing/being restless than eating. She wants them to just sit and eat these days and not get up to run around so she was telling him to sit 'or else' and he was like NO! so after a few no's from him (he also hit her earlier in the day)I think she was getting embarrased so she grabbed his arms and started asking questions are you tired?, something borhtering you? are you hungry? which was making him more upset and I think embarressed from what I could see so I told her to just leave him and to let him eat if he wanted to but to just leave him because he was getting embarresed. Anyway she stopped he stopped...but I dont mean to make her sound like she does not know what to do with her kids becuase God knows we all have those days when we're like 'ok what do I do now?'

anyway thanks for the response

Michelle

[~member~]

I think people get confused about time-outs and how they should be used. The kind of time out where the child is put in a chair and told to stay until whenever, have never worked for me. I find that it is not a useful tool for teaching a child that a certain behaviour is unacceptable.
Now a time-out that is used as a breather for everyone - sounds kind of like your situation - is good until children can learn to count down from ten or some other type of relaxation thing.

In my home, when things get so wound up and we are all stressed, I stop and yell 'relax time!' I yell only because things are so loud and crazy by then, which is rare but of course does and will happen lol! Then as a group we all breath and count and then find/name our chakras.

When everyone or even just the kids are wound up like that, it is a good idea to make it a group effort, because almost always we ALL need it, kwim?

[sparklemom]

i don't see time outs as an effective long term tool. again, as with so many other parenting "strategies," time outs may (or may not) "work" momentarily but they don't promote long term benefits. if, for example, my husband started to argue with a visiting friend and i told him to "go sit in this chair or room for five minutes" would he return feeling less argumentative? would the embarrassment of the situation set him straight? would he feel like apologizing to the friend? no. no. and no. (and yes, my husband is a grown man whereas my children are very young, but the psychology of the analogy still applies).

good point brought up that there is a bit of a fuzziness in the term 'time out.' there is a difference between using time out as a punishment and then simply seeing a need for some space. whenever things become stressed in our home i point out that there is a need for some "space" in order to regroup. i do not IMPOSE space, just suggest it. sometimes when my girls are feeling stressed with each other or at a playgroup they'll say "i need some space" which i respect and redirect things so as to give her some space. there's no negative feelings with getting "space" in our house.

as far as saying "thank you" and apologizing i never 'make' my children say these things. they've learned 'please' and 'thank you' and 'i apologize' in the same way they've learned their entire vocabulary---from hearing me say it. children, after all, do learn by example. i would never 'make' my husband say 'i love you' to me because it's meaning would be void by the fact that he was made to say it. so goes the same with saying 'sorry' 'thank you'...with my dds.

i can tell you're in touch with your mothering instincts...stick with them.

[bestjob]

At our house, we try to use the concept of time out as a constructive opportunity for a child to go and find some peace. However, at times that means that for the safety and peace of others, a parent needs to "enforce" that idea by taking the child to a peaceful place and helping the child stay there until he or she is obviously calmer and has regained self-control.

Some children have a lot more self-control than other children. My daughter rarely needs more than a reminder that her actions are not appropriate. My son needs a lot more adult involvement. I take him by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and ask him if he'd like me to stay or if he would like to be by himself. Either way, he doesn't get to rejoin the group activity until he is moving and speaking quietly.

The difference, IMO, is that your friend wants to punish a child by shaming him with a time-out, while we try to use it as a way of teaching the children how to withdraw from a too-exciting situation and calm oneself.

[EmmaJean]

Great insight. I appreciate hearing all this to. My ds is 16 mo, and people I know use *punitive*time-outs with their babies, and it seems to work for them. But that's not enough for me! I used to work at a day care with 18-30 mo and we used time-out all the time, and it was rarely effective. I think it was just a way to separate the child from a harmful situation or mainly just to punish.

I love to recommend good books I've read, and one of the best about time-outs is called "Positive Time-Out" and it gives the perspective of it not being punitive but restorative. Does that make sense? I think we see in our adult world, "time out=take a break" but for kids it's "time out=you're being punished". Anyway, that was the first time I'd ever thought about time-out that way, and it's really helped challenge my thinking in lots of ways.

Good luck!!

BTW........I think any way a parent can step back from a situation before acting in violence is crucial. It might be time-out or something else we wouldn't normally embrace, but if it keeps you from really losing it and hitting your child, then that is what is necessary, and I think we all need to remember that. Don't you guys think so?? Anything is better than literally "losing it". Just thought I'd say that!

[sparklemom]

just to clarify, i DO teach my dds to say 'please' 'thank you' (and other polite terms) as well as saying 'i apologize' by using these terms myself frequently and appropriately. i've never actually instructed them to say these words anymore than any i would have any other words. they've just picked them up naturally by hearing them (learning by example) and use them regularly themselves. so although you CAN literally instruct your children to say certain words, you don't have to. they're smart creatures who will pick it up on their own given time and exposure. and of course we treat others as we wish to be treated.

[alexa07]

I am on the say "please" and "thank you" and "I'm sorry" bandwagon. altough not to any member of the immediate family. We certainly model this behavior for the immediate family situation, but I think children need to adhere to a different standard with people outside their own immeidiate circle and this includes being polite even when we don't feel like it, and this IMHO need to be taught.

[untomySelf]

Im in agreement with sparklemom on this one

that is, that children are innately social and will behave of their own accord, in their own time authentically.
For me, authentic is more important than contrived.

Heres a great link by Naomi Aldort, she says it more eloquently than I can.

http://naturalchild.org/naomi_aldort/manners.html

[sparklemom]

"For me, authentic is more important than contrived."

Exactly!

[lilyka]

We use timeout a lot I uess. My oldest child gets herself worked into a frenzie a lot and needs a lot of time to sool down and come out of it. By frenzie I mean tantrums where she is hurting herself and others and breeeaking things that i would rather her not break. My second just gets stubbors and she has to sit in time out until she decides to do what i ask. (for example last night she bit her dad and refused to say she was sorry . She was sorry, it was obvious, she was very sad and embassased that she did it but I feel it is important to acknowledge that you blew it and ask for forgivness.

We also do the "go to your room and don't come out untill you can act in a socially acceptable way. Alot of times the cause is exahstion and overstimulation so some time to blow off steam is or a nap is what is needed but they just can't get those thing unles they are somewhere by themselves and not pouting around trying to prove me wrong (I think I have the most stubborn children on the planey some days.)

[LunaMom]

I do believe that time-out can be used constructively, when used to help a child calm himself or herself, or to diffuse a volatile situation, or when mom is about to blow her top! As long as it is not administered with anger and the child is old enough to understand what is going on, and does not feel abandoned, I think it can be fine. But it seems that it has become a punishment in so many households. I've certainly heard many people threatening kids with time-outs, so clearly a time-out in those households is a most unpleasant thing. And what is the child learning from it? Not much, IMO.

I tend to put myself in time-out more than I do my dd - meaning if she is getting under my skin, usually by nagging or whining or even full-out tantrumming (she's 4, by the way), I just say, "I cannot speak to you when you are behaving this way. I'm going upstairs and when you are ready to speak to me calmly, I will be happy to discuss this with you." Works GREAT, when I am able to not lose my cool and get angry! Most undesirable behavior needs an audience - at least when it is something the child is doing that she knows is wrong on purpose for negative attention. Once you remove the audience, it's like POOF! Magic!

Behaviors that are not "bad," but rather normal explorations, like a toddler climbing up on the table, do not merit time-out in any form. Those things just require childproofing, redirection, supervision, and some kind of honoring of the impulse behind the behavior, i.e., "Oh, you like to climb...well, you can't climb on the table, but you can climb on and off the couch."

Good luck!

[LunaMom]

I do believe that time-out can be used constructively, when used to help a child calm himself or herself, or to diffuse a volatile situation, or when mom is about to blow her top! As long as it is not administered with anger and the child is old enough to understand what is going on, and does not feel abandoned, I think it can be fine. But it seems that it has become a punishment in so many households. I've certainly heard many people threatening kids with time-outs, so clearly a time-out in those households is a most unpleasant thing. And what is the child learning from it? Not much, IMO.

I tend to put myself in time-out more than I do my dd - meaning if she is getting under my skin, usually by nagging or whining or even full-out tantrumming (she's 4, by the way), I just say, "I cannot speak to you when you are behaving this way. I'm going upstairs and when you are ready to speak to me calmly, I will be happy to discuss this with you." Works GREAT, when I am able to not lose my cool and get angry! Most undesirable behavior needs an audience - at least when it is something the child is doing that she knows is wrong on purpose for negative attention. Once you remove the audience, it's like POOF! Magic!

Behaviors that are not "bad," but rather normal explorations, like a toddler climbing up on the table, do not merit time-out in any form. Those things just require childproofing, redirection, supervision, and some kind of honoring of the impulse behind the behavior, i.e., "Oh, you like to climb...well, you can't climb on the table, but you can climb on and off the couch."

Good luck!

[mLeroux]

Thanks for all the replies

Thank you for all your replies and insight. Its helped out and giving me some things to think about. having said that though I dont think time outs are really for us. Anyway just wanted to say again thank you for your thoughts!


This forum is great.


Thanks
Michelle

PS Just wanted to add that the naturalchildproject is a great website. I read the Continuum Concept and love it. That book is really useful to parents and people in general I think. Funny thats one the only book I have ever read that has to do with 'parenting'

[stretchmark]

I'm on the extreme don't make your kids say please and thank you kick. It is part of my own healing from my own childhood. I have seen parents make shy kids say "hello so-and-so" forcing them to say a persons name. It's like being shy and introverted is unacceptable in this society. Also, I have seen parents who say, "Do you want to say goodbye?" and if they do they do and if they don't they don't. I know as adults we don't like people telling us what to do and maybe punishing us afterwards. Children really have an amazing ablility to find what is right for them if allowed the space. This is truely powerful. I have seen kids who were hitters work through it and know for themselves that it wasn't right. As far as what psychology tells us, children who do things only because mommy says to, end up with a lower developmental level than the kid who decides what is right or wrong. By level I mean, they don't develop as strongly their own LOGIC. Even if a parent doesn't want a child to do something, a good explanation helps so they can see why it was not the best choice. I highly recomend the parents leadership institute website. They have great ideas and info. A lot of free stuff to read and some cheap stuff to buy. Thanks everyone for sharing.

[Nanner]

My dd is 2.5 and we do have a time-out chair, though she has been to it a total of 4 times I think in her life- all within the last 3 mths. The last 2 were just last Friday. But, I do threaten it more than that. It started b/c I could not get her dressed at all and after about 4 mths of trying everything I finally told her I would have to sit with her on the couch and no playing until she could get dressed- that was at about 22 mths. 2 times of that and now if she doesn't want to get dressed (after giving plenty of warning, making it fun,etc.), I will ask her if she is going to get dressed or go sit in the chair? She always gets dressed. I am not sure I am 100% happy with my use of time-out like that, but it is the only thing that peacefully works.
And then there was Friday. I babysit a 2 mth old and another 2.5 yr old and that day the plumbing had gone out, the 2.5 yr old was missing his mommy and the baby needed a bottle. Dd has been snatching the little boys toys all the time- everything he touches. So, just as I got him interested in something and happy and was going to fix the very-hungry baby's bottle, here comes dd, yet again, to take whatever he had. He is passive most of the time and will not stand up for himself. So anyway, I threatened time-out, had a little talk with her, and she snatched again, so she went to the chair in her room. I told her to stay in the chair and I would come talk to her when she calmed down and was ready to talk. about 1 minute later she was and I did and she was none the worse for it. She did got a 2nd one that day for same offense. I watch this little boy at least once a week for 5 hrs and his Mom watches my dd sometimes too. My dd just runs him over and bosses him around b/c she can. Usually I try to first take her out of the room for a little talk about how we have to share and be nice to our friends,etc. Then, the 2nd time I take her away again and give her the warning that if she snatches again, she will go to time-out. This is just about the only time I have used a real time-out, and I feel it is the best solution. She is just way too aggressive with him. Also, I try to let the 2 of them work it out- like if one or the other takes a toy I just stand back and let them deal with it. The problem is dd gets out of hand with it and the boy just won't go get the toy back or not let her have it in the 1st place.
So, anyway, I do not like time-outs for every little infraction and I think natural and logical consequences work much better and are more effective. I would say my main discipline tool is still just talking and explaining and redirecting.
I also don't force "I'm sorrys" I think that as she gets older she will naturally do that, as she sees me do it. Also, she already does this on her own sometimes. Like on Friday, after one of her time-outs she went back in the room and told the boy she was sorry and gave him a toy- all on her own.
Also, I use other tactics to try to remedy the problem from a moral standpoint in that when there is no confrontation going on I will ask her to do things for me that she will likely want to do- like I will ask if she will give John his cookie if I am giving them a snack, or she is really in to having control and being Mommy-like, so I will ask her if she can show John how something works, or help him out somehow. And when we have our talks about sharing, I ask her how she might feel if she were at John's house and he would not let her play with any of his toys and then I tell her that it makes him sad when she takes things from him.
Sorry I am rambling! That's my take on it!
Sara

[EFmom]

We use time outs with great success. Actually, we do the 1-2-3 Magic thing now, and since we've started we very rarely make it to 3 (the time out). The first count or two is almost always sufficient. I do give immediate time outs for things like hitting or kicking. I most definitely view it as a punishment, and I don't have a problem at all with that concept. The time out is pretty mild punishment in my opinion, and it usually breaks the cycle of misbehavior. The kids don't like it as they are bored for a few minutes, but I don't see that as unduly harsh.

I wouldn't do it with a baby though. My youngest is two and a half and I'm just starting to give her time outs on occasion. I think that younger kids aren't able to understand the cause and effect relationship, so I don't see the point.

[grisletine]

good point brought up that there is a bit of a fuzziness in the term 'time out.' there is a difference between using time out as a punishment and then simply seeing a need for some space.

i have occasionally given myslef space from my tantruming toddler. my problem with punitive timeout is that to a child it maybe seen as a withdrawal of love until child "behaves",or conditional love..

[LambQueen]

The use of the time out is so rampant, and I see it's used often as a crutch. It's so easy to say, "you need a time out" or "do you want a time out" without any explanation of what it means.

I recently asked my nephew what it means to be in a time out. His father was standing right there. My nephew started to say, "it's when I'm a bad boy," and then his father continued and finished the answer for him.

Now, if he were given some space to answer, I am sure I could have probed him to find out what it means to be a "bad boy" (a term I *will not* use with my own children!)

The concept of a time out, space, relaxing time, regrouping, whatever you want to call it, is really great. However I feel it needs to be be backed with understanding of what it is, not used every hour as a threat (which is what I see happening with NYC parents I used to work with), and perhaps a focus on the child's actual behavior that got them to that spot in the first place.