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SAHM: a right or a privilege? - Page 18

post #341 of 356
I too am rather surprised to see here on mothering.com the continuing assertion that mothering full time is "taking time off" : I see a referral to SAH as "getting out of having to work" at least once per page. This is really shocking to me. I thought it was taken for granted that mothering is hard, hard work and more than a full time job. It is not a luxury or privilige to "stay home" with my child, it is very long hours. Yet if I did those long hours caring for other people's kids, then it would be "real work" and I'd be paid for it. I may even be paid precious tax dollars if it were a subsidized daycare. Why all the arguments about "strangers footing the bill"? I think this kind of talk is just distraction, like the constant mention of fathers when the discussion is about mothers.
post #342 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalateaDunkel View Post
Being a child is not a lifestyle choice. Your point is moot because no adults of any description would be receiving the benefit. This gets back to my original point - SAH is a benefit to the child, not the parent.

Children are members of the community. It is worthwhile to them to be in the care of their parents rather than strangers. Nobody has to prove its utility to you, anymore than you have to prove the utility to me of not letting you die of appendicitis on the sidewalk thanks to EMTALA.

Why don't you try to prove the benefit of displacing child-care resources from their natural caregivers to low-paid surrogates? Why don't you try to prove why, in a non-Friedmanian world where social benefits do in fact exist, children should be last in line?

Don't insult people's intelligence by trying to pretend the "knocked up" bit wasn't offensive.
I have to say I agree with you. However, I do want to add that I don't think anyone can tell me that an infant or preschooler in daycare with many other children and maybe only one adult is doing as well as a child with their parent's full attention. I think I have also read that children in daycare are sick more often, often have more aggressive behaviors, and tend not to speak as early as children at home? Also, I would have to bring up that children in daycare more than likely have to have been vaxed, probably are in disposible dipes, and often (not always) are not BF. They also don't have the added benefit of possible Attachment Parenting since again the worker must care for several children. Therefore losing out on the benefits from the alternatives. Please correct me if I am wrong.
post #343 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by treemom2 View Post
I think I have also read that children in daycare are sick more often,
yep, one of my old coworkers had kids in daycare and she was constantly having to take days off work because they kept getting sick in there. Ultimately when it came down to laying someone off they chose her. I think she got unemployment at least.
post #344 of 356
"Children are members of the community. It is worthwhile to them to be in the care of their parents rather than strangers. Nobody has to prove its utility to you, anymore than you have to prove the utility to me of not letting you die of appendicitis on the sidewalk thanks to EMTALA."

The utility of EMTALA to you is not that it prevents me from dying on the sidewalk, but because it exists to prevent you from dying on the sidewalk.

"It is worthwhile to them to be in the care of their parents rather than strangers."

That is an incredibly broad statement and makes a huge assumption. For some children it may be worthwhile to have a SAHP but for others it may not be or could even be harmful. It would be interesting to ask a group of high school or college seniors what they most value -- universal health care, increased college and vocational training aid, ensuring the survival of medicare and social security (so their parents never have to come live with them) or having a SAHP.

Re: "getting knocked up" -- please don't assume that everyone has the same sensibility. In my experience this is not viewed as derogatory and I have never had anyone be offended by my use of it prior to now.
post #345 of 356
ok i didnt read all the pages. skimmed some stuff.

i was a SAHM for the first few years of my sons life. we were poor, but it made no sense for me to work cuz childcare would take most my wages. ( i did take part time college here and there diring that time, but DH had a flexible work schedule and could take a lunch break for my class)

now i am separated from my STBXH and am trying to finish my degree. it is totally stupid for me to try to work , because i currently earn what i would have to pay a sitter. but when i wasnt working my STBXH would not give me as much childcare support and would not give me any $$ child support, except for DSs preschool. so now i work and see DS less. just so his dad, who thinks SAHM is "time off" will help me out more.

ds has never been to daycare. i dont think i would have gone full time to school this semester if he couldnt be in preschool. however, i would give anything if i could have him in preschool only 2-3 days a week. he is in 30 hours a week now!

i think SAHM is WORK! it is hard! i have done it! i also think what i am doing now is REALY REALLY HARD. they are both hard for dif reasons. but i would way rather be with my son most of the day, if money were no object it is what i would do. i think it should be a right, and it is mainly for the priveledged , right now.
post #346 of 356
"knocked up" has always meant, to me, to my peers, and in the media, as an unplanned and unwanted out-of-wedlock pregnancy. It is very offensive.

If one believes their children are just as well-off in daycare as they are with them, one would be correct. Not every mother is interested in spending 24/7 with their children. But I am 1,000% more dedicated to the comfort, development, health, happiness and spiritual growth of my child than any stranger, friend, or non-nuclear relative could ever be. I KNOW my son is better off in all areas under my and my husband's care.

Sometimes mothers have to work for pay outside of the home. That is a fact. These mothers are fully capable of compensating with extra care, devotion, and attachment parenting techniques when they are home. That is not supposed to be the debate here.

The question is, should SAHMING be a right? And my answer is yes. If childcare can be subsidized, why can't SAHMing? Why isn't unpaid childcare by a parent seen as real work, when paid childcare by a stranger is? Why does it make economic and social sense for me to go to a paid job and get the government to give me free or cheap substandard childcare when I could leave that job for someone else and give my own child superior care, or at the very least take off enough time to care for my infant until he is not as dependent on my breastmilk and the proximity of my feel and sound and smell? Why isn't caring for tomorrow's leaders and workers and teachers and parents seen as a valuable contribution to society and a benefit to the masses?

Mothering Magazine itself was established to promote the value of connected, devoted parenting, including homeschooling, which would almost invariably require a SAHP. It is a celebration of motherwork as real work and worthwhile work. It is bothersome too see it's forums tolerate posts that claim otherwise.
post #347 of 356
I haven't read through this entire thread because it's ... very long. But I have a response for the OP. I think you're really talking about two different issues here. Issue #1 - Is staying at home a right or a privilege?
Issue #2 - Is your acquaintance asserting her right to be a SAHM by doing so despite not being able to meet her children's basic needs; or is your friend SAH because she wants to and is not adequately concerned with meeting her children's basic needs? From the bit that you've said in your OP, I almost get the impression that there's a lot more to it. Maybe she could meet basic needs if she prioritized or budgeted? Maybe she's only staying home because she just doesn't want to work? I'm not sure I don't think this is enough to go on, but if you are saying that her kids don't have adequate food, clothing, etc. then perhaps someone should step in and do something. If it ISN'T bad enough to call for intervention, then maybe what you are considering "basic needs" really are not? I have no idea, this is pretty deep.

As for the first issue; I think don't think it is either. I refuse to say it's a privilege because in a lot of cases, one parent is forced to stay at home (whether they want to or not) because child care would cost more than they would make working. And I can't say that it is a right, because in order for it to be so, people who SAH would be supported by their communities, governments, etc. which I think isn't quite the case now. Perhaps you could say that it SHOULD be a right, but presently I think that it is not.
post #348 of 356
Not one of us has said that taking care of children is not hard. I have been a SAHM, WOHM, and am currently a fulltime student taking online classes and part time WAHM. I have a 9 yr old, a 7 yr old with high functioning autism, and a toddler who is almost 2. Think I don't work hard?

I feel that it would be great to be able to help women (or men) stay home with a baby for a time. Even thought I feel that having children is a choice, I can still see the benefit of having a SAHP. However, my main question has never been approached as far as I can see. (if I missed it, my apologies)

Okay, say the US enacted a subsidy for SAHPs. Here are my questions:

What do you think should be the limits? How long should the govt. pay the SAH? Should there be a cap of some sort? Because, although it is nice to stay home, I personally wouldn't be comfortable having child after child, in a row, and being subsidized, somehow, to do it.

What do you think?
post #349 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by treemom2 View Post
I think I have also read that children in daycare are sick more often, often have more aggressive behaviors, and tend not to speak as early as children at home? Also, I would have to bring up that children in daycare more than likely have to have been vaxed, probably are in disposible dipes, and often (not always) are not BF. They also don't have the added benefit of possible Attachment Parenting since again the worker must care for several children. Therefore losing out on the benefits from the alternatives. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Wow, that is an EXTREMELY broad brush you're painting with!
post #350 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin2004 View Post
Wow, that is an EXTREMELY broad brush you're painting with!

Yes, very broad. How many posts have I seen on the GD board where the kids are hitting, kicking and even SPITTING on their parents? That is violent. Also, I have known several SAHM friends who exclusively BF and their children have been sicker than my #3, who was not BF due to medical problems on my part. My son has never had an ear infection, nor has he ever been on antibiotics. The worst illness has been a cold. A minor one at that.

Also, I know some gals whose children are in daycare and who speak better than my oldest did, and he was at home until kindergarten. My youngest does speak better than the oldest did, but I think that has to do with having older brothers. (middle child was speech delayed due to Autism)
post #351 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinkerBelle View Post
What do you think should be the limits? How long should the govt. pay the SAH? Should there be a cap of some sort? Because, although it is nice to stay home, I personally wouldn't be comfortable having child after child, in a row, and being subsidized, somehow, to do it.
What do you think?
I think the govt should pay the SAHP as long as the child is at home full-time--not in school. This would mean that children who are homeschooled would continue to receive the subsidy until they are no longer under their parents care (possibly 18?) however children who go to school would not. I also think the subsidy should be for each child, regardless of the number of children a family has. I also wonder as I write this, if perhaps the subsidy could take the role of a tax credit. I mean WOHP get childcare deductions--perhaps it could be something like this?!!?
post #352 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by treemom2 View Post
I think the govt should pay the SAHP as long as the child is at home full-time--not in school. This would mean that children who are homeschooled would continue to receive the subsidy until they are no longer under their parents care (possibly 18?) however children who go to school would not. I also think the subsidy should be for each child, regardless of the number of children a family has. I also wonder as I write this, if perhaps the subsidy could take the role of a tax credit. I mean WOHP get childcare deductions--perhaps it could be something like this?!!?
Okay, but should this continue if the woman decides that she likes this subsidy thing and has several children? Should there be a limit of some sort?

I don't know. It sounds good in theory, though.
post #353 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by treemom2 View Post
I have to say I agree with you. However, I do want to add that I don't think anyone can tell me that an infant or preschooler in daycare with many other children and maybe only one adult is doing as well as a child with their parent's full attention. I think I have also read that children in daycare are sick more often, often have more aggressive behaviors, and tend not to speak as early as children at home? Also, I would have to bring up that children in daycare more than likely have to have been vaxed, probably are in disposible dipes, and often (not always) are not BF. They also don't have the added benefit of possible Attachment Parenting since again the worker must care for several children. Therefore losing out on the benefits from the alternatives. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Um. this is really bordering on the offensive. There are AP families that use daycare for their kids. By the way vaxxing and cloth dipes are more in the realm of NFL as I understand it.

Gotta go.

Shay
post #354 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by bczmama View Post
Adults make sure that both they and their children are provided for. "Universal" duty indeed -- how do we decide who gets out of working and who has the duty to support all those who don't have to? And once again -- I don't believe that you can show me sufficient reliable evidence that the children of SAHM's turn out so very much better than those of WOHM's to justify welfare for SAH's. I mean -- wouldn't it be great if the government subsidized cosmetic dentistry for all citizens? We'd all feel so much more self-confident, and smile so much more and the country would be such a happier place! But is the benefit worth the expenditure? I say NO.
One: "How do we decide who get's out of working." -- WHA??? Have you stayed home with your kids? Are you aware that being a SAHM is actually work? I have had different kinds of paying jobs, and I have a Masters Degree from Harvard. Being a SAHM is much harder than anything I have ever done before.

Two: as for kids of SAHM turning our better than kids of WOHMs -- there is no evidence because there have never been any substantial studies.

Three: Comparing taking care of your teeth to taking care of your children...that's really, really sad. Do you really value teeth as much as children?
post #355 of 356
[QUOTE=alisaterry;6560269The question is, should SAHMING be a right? And my answer is yes. If childcare can be subsidized, why can't SAHMing? Why isn't unpaid childcare by a parent seen as real work, when paid childcare by a stranger is? Why does it make economic and social sense for me to go to a paid job and get the government to give me free or cheap substandard childcare when I could leave that job for someone else and give my own child superior care, or at the very least take off enough time to care for my infant until he is not as dependent on my breastmilk and the proximity of my feel and sound and smell? Why isn't caring for tomorrow's leaders and workers and teachers and parents seen as a valuable contribution to society and a benefit to the masses?

Mothering Magazine itself was established to promote the value of connected, devoted parenting, including homeschooling, which would almost invariably require a SAHP. It is a celebration of motherwork as real work and worthwhile work. It is bothersome too see it's forums tolerate posts that claim otherwise.[/QUOTE]

post #356 of 356
I am locking this thread for review. I hope to reopen it soon.
Thank you for your patience


update.....
After reviewing this thread I have decided to keep it closed. There was some great dialog, but unfortunately there ended up being alot of debate and demeaning comments regaring lifestyles.
Please review our forum guidelines and the UA
Thank You
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