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He lied and has ISS!!!..sheesh, see post #36...

post #1 of 57
Thread Starter 
DS has a lot of, I'll just call them issues...he has had some probs w/ the new disipline system at school, where they give points for negative behavior. I got a call from exhusband on Friday and he told me ds has in school suspension on Tuesday for excessive points. Than he started yelling at me so I hung up the phone (ot but I don't allow my ex to yell at me any more, he's got a new wife to treat poorly thank you very much)....so anyway, I called the school and ds has been getting points mostly for talking, disrupting class, and he got 5 for 'not responding to a reasonable request'....(btw, ds has 28 points, 70 is expulsion)
Since the points thing was a pretty big deal earlier in the year, I ask ds EVERY DAY if he's gotten points and I see his teachers ALL THE TIME...I've been hearing 'he's doing great' and the like...and I just took ds's word for it that he's not gotten points....well, he lied....and I just told him last thursday that he could get a new Thomas toy for doing so well in school...just to find out that he has been dishonest about the points....ds has been at his fathers house all weekend so I won't see him until after school today...how do I handle this? It feels rotton to not trust him....:
post #2 of 57
This "point system" sounds insane. ISS for children so young, and for what seems like such minor "infractions"!! I cannot believe it. I am shocked! Does he exhibit these behaviors at home, and if so, how do you respond? I would stress the importance of telling the truth at all times and reassure him that you don't think him "bad", and that no matter what it is, you love him to the ends of the earth. This school discipline system sounds like the pits to me! He's just a boy! Good luck to you.
post #3 of 57
This is one of the MANY reasons I started homeschooling...DS1 was under too much stress/pressure with his "behavior folder." I finally told him I didn't care what it said, I told his treacher that, too. A large weight came off his shoulders immediatly! These stupid "discipline plans" are focing kids to lie, it's more than they can deal with.
post #4 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by damselfly41 View Post
This "point system" sounds insane. ISS for children so young, and for what seems like such minor "infractions"!! I cannot believe it. I am shocked! Does he exhibit these behaviors at home, and if so, how do you respond? I would stress the importance of telling the truth at all times and reassure him that you don't think him "bad", and that no matter what it is, you love him to the ends of the earth. This school discipline system sounds like the pits to me! He's just a boy! Good luck to you.

It is insane...they are 'trying it out' this year...they gave ds ISS in lieu of 'Saturday School' because exhusband won't cooperate with that and it would just get ds in more 'trouble' at school...
and oh my yes, he is the same at home...we have child therapist, behavior coach, dr, etc so we are working on it....but the point system seems to set kids like mine up for failure.
We are going to have to tak about telling the truth ALWAYS...usually I can tell when he is not (he's like me and is totally obvious when he is lying...we both have kind of pinnocho syndrome ) I just want to get through the day without yelling about it....even though I am pretty steamed...and sad...
post #5 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by momma of monkeys View Post
It is insane...they are 'trying it out' this year...they gave ds ISS in lieu of 'Saturday School' because exhusband won't cooperate with that and it would just get ds in more 'trouble' at school...
and oh my yes, he is the same at home...we have child therapist, behavior coach, dr, etc so we are working on it....but the point system seems to set kids like mine up for failure.
We are going to have to tak about telling the truth ALWAYS...usually I can tell when he is not (he's like me and is totally obvious when he is lying...we both have kind of pinnocho syndrome ) I just want to get through the day without yelling about it....even though I am pretty steamed...and sad...
I know its frustrating when kids lie (its also very, very age appropriate developmentally), but I honestly think you should be more angry with a school that's setting him up for this kind of thing. ISS for a 6 year old (if I'm interpreting your sig line correctly) is absurd. Just absolutely absurd. Seriously, is there a different school he could attend? What an awful, punishing system.

On the lying, my dd, who is just a few months older than your DS, was fibbing a lot for a while. The only reason she lied, as she would tell me many times, was she was afraid I would be mad. I made her a solemn promise that whatever it was, no matter what, I would NOT get angry with her if she told me the truth. There would still be a natural consequence to her actions, but I would not get angry. I told her this over and over and I kept my word. When I ask her about something and she tells me the truth, I calmly and sincerely thank her for being honest and then calmly facilitate a natural consequence (cleaning up a mess, fixing what was broken, etc.). It works. DD has copped to some biggies that I know she would've lied about before.

I've felt awful when my dd has lied. I know how crummy it can feel. But again, I think the school is more at fault here than anyone.
post #6 of 57
I don't think the lying is a particularly significant issue. At six, most children are still working out the difference between what is absolutely true and what they wish was true. Simply, now you know that he is not ready to accurately relay information to you about how his day went, and you will have to get the information another way.
post #7 of 57
wow, sounds like you've got a tough situation to deal with right now

Just wondering; what would you have said to your DS if he HAD told you about the bad points he's been accruing?

just my 2 cents (and you can have it for free), but I really believe that children start acting sneaky, lying and "misbehaving" in reponse to their treatment. After all, can you remember how it was to be 6?

I can, and one thing I remember really well is that I often did something "bad", not deliberately with intent to be bad, just because I was a small kid and still learning about the world and its consequences.

and when faced with the option of admitting it to my folks and looking at an almost certain punishment/ time out/ being yelled at, or hiding it/ denying it/ lying through my teeth and possibly getting away with it... well, its a no-brainer really.

Not only that, my experience of these "gentle" punishments like "time-out" and not-so-gentle stuff too is that I really have lots of deep issues with my self worth. I always feel like I have to do everything for everyone, and that I must constantly behave in the way people want me to, or they wont like/love me - my parents included.

I really believe that children need unconditional love, and saying "even though i'm giving you this punishment, I still love you, and this punishment is the 'natural consequence' of YOUR choices" just doesnt cut it.

i dont mean to sound harsh, but it looks like your DS is in a harsh situation. I mean, giving negative points to 6 year olds??!! does the school also offer positive points for good behaviour? is the point system the same (and with the same consequences) for all ages? (like, are 6 year olds expected to behave with the same level of self-control as 10 year olds?)

I would strongly advise you to talk with your son about how you are feeling - your concerns and worries - WITHOUT criticizing him or punishing his behaviour. just let him know that you're a real person who is kinda new at this whole life thing too. Ask him what he thinks, and if he has any ideas for improving things (in ways that dont involve him saying (being guided to say) "in the futrure I promise to behave in XYZ manner instead of ABC, or I will get a time out") you never know, he might surprise the pants off you with some useful suggestions!

Have you read any of Alfie Kohn's books? especially "Unconditional Parenting" and "punished by rewards"

Anyway, here's an experiment:
When your DS gets home, give him a big hug and gently say to him "hey, I heard that you got a bunch of bad points at school, that must really suck, the teacher was probably picking on you and being unfair, let's go for icecream" Consider suggesting to the teacher/ school board/ Principle that you really disagree with the points system, and ask around if any other parents feel the same way...

I could go on, but I shouldn't

Hope this helps, mama! I know those monkeys can be tough!
post #8 of 57
Thread Starter 
Well, I am new to gd...and I am trying ever so hard to be gd...I am not always as successful as I'd like to be (I come from an extremely abusive family, and yelling was like talking when I was growing up...but that's a whole other post) I am learning quite a bit through MDC(thank you mommas!!! ), books, and behavior coach, etc...
Just to clarify, yes, ds is 6 years old, almost 7...ds's school is for the most part AWESOME, it's a small public charter school that is so much better than many schools (free ones anyway) academicly (we are in AZ ...and our school system is dead last in the country)...the school has been wonderful about ds and his 'issues'...and his teacher is VERY fair...she gives the kids three chances at improving whatever behavior before she starts giving points.(so the fourth time they repeat the behavior they get the points) So all the kids have ample opportunity to act appropriately before they get these points. The school is also relativly new and has not found an appropriate 'disipline' system yet...I am going to suggest the 'Make my Day' program that is used in many public schools that give positive points...but for this year we are stuck w/ this system. And yes, it is across the board, the school has K-5 and 6-8 all in the same building (told you it was small)...I do think that some of it is up to teacher's discretion though...I also really feel like ds would be left behind at the regular public school in our area ...so I don't want to move him to another school. Homeschooling isn't an option for us right now because of exhusband.
I don't think we will be going for ice cream but, I plan on just talking with him...and I think that his consequence will be that he does not get the toy I was going to buy him. He will have to wait on that.
I guess really when I think about it, I am more angry with myself for not looking into things further...but usually his teachers will talk with me if he is having a rough day/time....nobody has said boo lately...I dunno....wish me luck with him this evening....

ps...I just reread what I said about Pinnociho syndrome...and I didn't mean that ds and I are frequent liers...we just do a poor job when we try to lie...which is a good thing, right?
post #9 of 57
[QUOTE=majikfaerie;6522886]

Anyway, here's an experiment:
When your DS gets home, give him a big hug and gently say to him "hey, I heard that you got a bunch of bad points at school, that must really suck, the teacher was probably picking on you and being unfair, let's go for icecream" Consider suggesting to the teacher/ school board/ Principle that you really disagree with the points system, and ask around if any other parents feel the same way...

[QUOTE]

WOW! RED FLAG HERE! I understand that his point system is very confusing and a new thing for the whole school. I am a teacher, but decided to be a SAH. Starting up a new discipline system is tough. I'm not sure what the points entail, but I do know that you are entitled to get some clarity of the system. Maybe you should ask your principal for a parents meeting on the whole thing.

What I DO NOT suggest is to say what is quoted in bold above. Never undermind your child's teacher! That totally makes the child invincible and the teacher the mean guy. It'll pretty much make the teacher the one at fault not the child who's doing the infractions. I always tried to keep a good communication line with my parents when I taught. It made things a lot easier. I understood the parents concerns and they also understood my side as well. You definitely should not say that the teacher is being mean, the teacher is probably trying to do the best they can with the new system not to mention a CLASS full of 20-30 six year olds. (I think some parents don't take that into consideration)

I agree that it sounds like your child is going through some tough times. The transistion of the divorce and remarrage is tough for all of you. Talk to your child and give him lots of love and attention. And talk with the teacher with your child. Yea I said both of them. That way you get all angles of the issue. I'm sure your child can give good insight to how he feels and why he's acting out.
post #10 of 57
I just read that you are in AZ. Me too!
post #11 of 57
Looking at this from a different angle, it seems like it would be helpful for you to know that he is getting points so that you can help him figure out solutions to the problems that are causing the points, right? Without getting into the whole "is the system any good" question, because the system isn't going to change overnight. Though, as an aside, I do think its worth going in a talking to the powers that be about revising things.

I would probably go in and talk to the teacher. Since you aren't getting the info you need to help your DS, ask her for some sort of system to get you info. Can she email you each day? That would probably be my first choice sense its time-neutral and doesn't make your child bring home "bad" notes each day.

Then you, DS, ex H if necessary, theapists and whoever else can come up with a way to help your child be more successful. Maybe a system of rewards at home for good days, to offset the negative attention at school? I don't believe in dismissing poor behaviour in school (as long as expectations are age appropriate and the environment overall is good), but seems like he could use a focus on the positive at the moment.
post #12 of 57
I have only skimmed the pp so maybe someone said this . . .

I TRY (I forget sometimes) to avoid asking DD a question where she will have to admit that she did something wrong. IMO, it is setting her up to lie. I think the teacher(s) dropped the ball by not telling you about the points being accumulated earlier, before it came to this. And, of course, I think it's crazy to have such a system with young children. Is there anyway at that school they can undo points by doing positive things?

ITA with the pp who said do NOT undermine the teacher. That is very confusing for children. It is better to go directly to the teacher with your concerns . . .in the meantime, I wouldn't go out for ice cream either (that seems VERY confusing, like a reward for ?????) I would just stress how important it is to tell the truth, no matter what.

Since you promised him the toy, I would find another way that he can succeed at something to earn it. He can't change the past-- those points are there-- so is there something that you can set up for him at home so he can get it? I think helping him accomplish something would be great now. Not giving it to him might make him feel hopeless, but giving it to him for no reason (after it was supposed to be earned) is confusing. I wouldn't bring up the ISS connection to not getting the toy. Just let that go-- he will be punished more than enough by the school.

It comes down to helping your DS succeed, to know that even if he made mistakes, it's OK . . .we all do, but he has to try again. So, make sure you set him up for success by NOT putting him in a position where he might lie, and giving him plenty of chances (at home) where he can see the benefits of doing things in a positive way.
post #13 of 57
will the teachers work with you to find a discipline strategy that works for him? is he not getting enough recess? IMO the lie isn't that big of a deal. i wouldn't punish him for it, he's already being punished at school.
post #14 of 57
Some teachers ARE mean though. I had to "undermine" DS's teacher on a daily basis. That wasn't my INTENT, but I had to to keep him safe and sane. I think teachers are often OVER-respected. She tried lots of "I'm the teacher" BS with me, didn't fly.
post #15 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by momma of monkeys View Post
Since the points thing was a pretty big deal earlier in the year, I ask ds EVERY DAY if he's gotten points and I see his teachers ALL THE TIME...I've been hearing 'he's doing great' and the like...and I just took ds's word for it that he's not gotten points....well, he lied....
I see that he wasn't forthcoming, but if he heard the adults lying (you say THEY told you he was doing great too) he may not have considered it a lie. Lots of people make idle threats to children in an effort to scare them into the desired behavior and if he heard them acting like everything was fine when they talked to you he may have simply thought they hadn't given him any points afterall. So if you can normally tell when he's lying I'd dig a little more to see if he actually understood he was getting points and not just getting in trouble, because that might explain how it was so easy to 'lie' about--if he didn't know it was a lie he wouldn't feel any guilt or remorse saying it.

Also maybe it'd be easier for him to talk about his day and what went right/wrong than whether or not he got points... In the end, the points are just a way they are trying to deal with behavior (a potentially temporary one at that) and it's the behavior itself that matters, even to the school. So I think I'd take the emphasis off the point and just focus on the real reasons you'd like him not to avoid some of the negative behaviors he is struggling with and teach him new ways to deal with the things that are triggering the negative behaviors in an acceptable way. For example, if he likes to talk and if finding it hard to sit quietly for great lengths of time, maybe encourage him to try to answer the teacher's questions or raise a hand and ask her a question rather than just chatting to a friend and no paying attention in class. Not the best example I know but not knowing the problems I have no clue what you need, the point is more than likely the stuff he's getting points for is likely stuff you don't want him doing anyway so shift the focus back to that instead of the points and it should fit comfortably back into your method of parenting. And if he's getting points for things you don't perceive to be a problem just explain that while nothing's wrong with it per se that's how things are at school and try to refrain from doing x, y, and z when he's there. For example, how some people have rules that feet on the couch is ok at home but not at Grandma's because Grandma doesn't like it/it bothers her, etc. I really think once you take the emphasis of the points you'll already know how you want to deal with your son. So I would just find out what he got the points for and go from there.
post #16 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmzbm View Post
Some teachers ARE mean though. I had to "undermine" DS's teacher on a daily basis. That wasn't my INTENT, but I had to to keep him safe and sane. I think teachers are often OVER-respected. She tried lots of "I'm the teacher" BS with me, didn't fly.
As a former teacher, I don't think teachers are generally regraded highly. I taught children whose parents were recent immigrants (from a country where teachers really ARE respected) to the US and they were extremely respectful. They came to me with suggestions, concerns, etc. but always in a respectful way.

In contrast, the children and parents in the US (native born) have more tendencies to have a sense of entitlement and downplay a teacher's role. I have had to fight those feelings with myself, even though I was a teacher! This can make things VERY difficult in the classroom.

My view is that parents, teachers, children, the community, etc. need to know that they are on the same team. Once someone starts putting the other down in a non-constructive way, there is no way anyone can win. I don't think the "I'm the teacher" is helpful in that sense (because that negates the partnership), but if there is something wrong, I will go to the TEACHER to solve the problem, instead of putting my child in the middle of a situation. However, this does not mean that I cannot empathize with my child if he/she is unhappy . . .it does not mean I would ask my child not to feel a certain way just because "he/she is the teacher and knows best." Empathy does not involve criticizing anyone else, though, and I think that is my point. (OK, finally, I have a point!) Being respectful of the teacher does not mean giving up being an advocate for one's child-- no way-- it just means on has to do it effectively!
post #17 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by momma of monkeys View Post
I called the school and ds has been getting points mostly for talking, disrupting class, and he got 5 for 'not responding to a reasonable request'....(btw, ds has 28 points, 70 is expulsion)
:
I'm just making sure I understand the school's system. They would expell a kindergartener for "talking, disrupting class and 'not responding to a reasonable request'" if they did it often enough? Is that really true?

What I would take up with the teacher is that you are not receiving enough communication. Do you even know what "not responding to a reasonable request" was about?

I wouldn't take up the stance that he was lying. I'd talk to him...from the perspective of being on his side...to figure out how to make his school life better. It sounds like he might need to think up better survival strategies to exist in this system. I bet you can help him do that.
post #18 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by momma of monkeys View Post
Well, I am new to gd...and I am trying ever so hard to be gd...I am not always as successful as I'd like to be (I come from an extremely abusive family, and yelling was like talking when I was growing up...but that's a whole other post) I am learning quite a bit through MDC(thank you mommas!!! ), books, and behavior coach, etc...
Just to clarify, yes, ds is 6 years old, almost 7...ds's school is for the most part AWESOME, it's a small public charter school that is so much better than many schools (free ones anyway) academicly (we are in AZ ...and our school system is dead last in the country)...the school has been wonderful about ds and his 'issues'...and his teacher is VERY fair...she gives the kids three chances at improving whatever behavior before she starts giving points.(so the fourth time they repeat the behavior they get the points) So all the kids have ample opportunity to act appropriately before they get these points. The school is also relativly new and has not found an appropriate 'disipline' system yet...I am going to suggest the 'Make my Day' program that is used in many public schools that give positive points...but for this year we are stuck w/ this system. And yes, it is across the board, the school has K-5 and 6-8 all in the same building (told you it was small)...I do think that some of it is up to teacher's discretion though...I also really feel like ds would be left behind at the regular public school in our area ...so I don't want to move him to another school. Homeschooling isn't an option for us right now because of exhusband.
I don't think we will be going for ice cream but, I plan on just talking with him...and I think that his consequence will be that he does not get the toy I was going to buy him. He will have to wait on that.
I guess really when I think about it, I am more angry with myself for not looking into things further...but usually his teachers will talk with me if he is having a rough day/time....nobody has said boo lately...I dunno....wish me luck with him this evening....

ps...I just reread what I said about Pinnociho syndrome...and I didn't mean that ds and I are frequent liers...we just do a poor job when we try to lie...which is a good thing, right?
nak...I am aware I'm quoting myself but....I really like ds's teacher, she is extremely fair, she has allowed ds to miss recess in lieu of points, she gives many chances before she gives points. She raised 6 children so I know she can handle a roomful (and the school has a 23 or 24 kid per class limit, no exceptions)I wouldn't dream of undermining her authority. The only area where I disagree with her is that she says ds is just a 'regular boy' not doing anything out of the ordinary...which I *know* is not the case.
The school has an online system where I can see what points ds has gotten for what behavior...but it's a day or so behind...like I may not see Tuesday's stuff until Thursday...and I did go on there last Friday when I called the principal. DS DOES have that many points, they have been accumulating since August. The school 'could' have done the ISS or Saturday School thing a while back but chose not to.
Because of the point system at school, we do not use a point system (mine was positive tho)at home any longer, it would be too confusing. Also, ds's therapists don't think he's a point system kind of kid.
I am a pretty vocal parent and I have other parents who agree with me about the disipline system...it sucks, it doesn't work for kids who live 'outside the box'...gotta run...dd doesn't want me on the computer
post #19 of 57
Slightly OT - but I think not allowing recess is boarderline abusive. Especially for a child who may need more of an "outlet" than other kids. It is a RIGHT not a privelage!

Carry on...
post #20 of 57
It seems clear to me that this environment is not the correct one for your child. ISS for a 6-year-old? That is terrible and unacceptable.

I understand that the teacher might be trying to help him by letting him skip recess, but he probably needs to blow off steam. This whole situation just screams WRONG to me.

I'm sorry that you have to deal with this, but he may need a different school environment. Have you considered private school or homeschooling?
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