Spinoff- Comparing spanking to domestic violence

[Ruthla]

I'm not trying to justify spanking- on the contrary, I want to point out a situation that many parents may find themselves in, so maybe we can think of alternatives BEFORE we find ourselves in those situations.

I'm personally sick of hearing "You wouldn't hit your spouse/partner, so why would you hit your child?"

When another adult does something that angers you, you have the option of walking away. So does the other adult. Even with "biggies" like adultery, there's a time lapse you don't have with children. If you actually walk in on them having sex, you can walk right out (though I know that if you do perform an act of violence in such a situation juries tend to be lenient.) If you learn about it in a less dramatic way, you have some time to think about it before taking any action. If your partner is actually violent towards you, you can pick up the phone and call 911.

With little kids, their violence towards you is often the first step. A nursing infant can bite your nipple. Toddlers can kick, hit, pinch, bite, etc. They're not being criminal, they're being children. But there is an instinct to react to violence with violence. If somebody hits you, it's a normal reaction to hit back. Many times the "hit back" happens first and the cognizance of what's just happens comes second. This can happen even to parents who are dedicated to GD who are simply unprepared for the intensity of their own emotions.

In parenting, your child is not another adult. Babies and children act like babies and children. This can include keeping mama (and/or papa) up all night, shrieking at the top of their voices for no apparent (to us) reason, throwing tantrums, and generally being very unpleasant to be around. The combination of lack of sleep and general unpleasantness can grate on anybody's nerves- having a few minutes of peace and quiet can often help restore equilibrium. Many new parents don't get those few minutes of peace and quiet- and can be put into situations where controlling their own emotions is very, very challenging.

Imagine that, after a night of continually interupted sleep, and a whole day without personal boundaries being respected, the child hits/kicks/bites the parent, and the parent, without even thinking about it, hits back. It happens! It's not a "proud mommy moment" but it does happen!

If another adult woke you every 2 hours during the night, and then refused to leave you alone for 30 seconds all day, even following you into the bathroom, and talked loudly whenever you tried to use the phone, it would be abuse. When a baby does that, it's just called parenting.

[rmzbm]

I must be really dense...but I can't see what your point is.

[Ruthla]

My point is that hitting kids is NOT the same as violence between adult partners. I think we can address the reasons parents end up hitting children (and discuss strategies to prevent it) without constantly comparing it to violence between adults.

[thismama]

ITA Ruth. I think you make a really good point. I also think it is absolutely unacceptable to hit children, but ITA that the relationship, and the obligations, are not the same as between adults.

[rmzbm]

OK, that's valid. But I don't think that contradicts "You wouldn't hit your spouse so why would you hit your kid."

I MUST be dense cuz I just really feel like I'm missing something! :

[mollyeilis]

"so maybe we can think of alternatives BEFORE we find ourselves in those situations."

Good idea. For me, I've been very glad that I had anger management counseling, so that even if my first impulse is a flash of anger, I can control my mouth and even hands (though really, my only violence in my life is to hit innocent doorjams, and once I broke my OWN hand by punching it while angry in a parking lot) very VERY fast.

So that's my preparation, even though I didn't realize how much it would help me with parenting, when I had the counseling so many years ago.

[irinam]

Another dense mama here

I definately agree that details are different, but violence is violence is violence. The whole point of comparing violence towards children with violence towards women is to trigger "That's not acceptable!" thought.

As in - if it's not acceptable to hit a grown person, why is it acceptable to hit a child? (NO matter what the circumstances are, true self-defence being a separate category)

[thismama]

Originally Posted by irinam

As in - if it's not acceptable to hit a grown person, why is it acceptable to hit a child?

I agree that it is not acceptable. But there are differences, including that our other coping mechanisms are not as available with children.

[peacelovingmama]

Originally Posted by irinam

Another dense mama here

I definately agree that details are different, but violence is violence is violence. The whole point of comparing violence towards children with violence towards women is to trigger "That's not acceptable!" thought.

As in - if it's not acceptable to hit a grown person, why is it acceptable to hit a child? (NO matter what the circumstances are, true self-defence being a separate category)

: I absolutely agree. Sure, adults and children are different. But family violence is unacceptable no matter what the family member's age. I personally see a very strong analogy between domestic violence between adults and between adult and child.

It used to be legal for men to hit their wives for many of the reasons people justify hitting children -- family order, discipline, etc. I simply do not see that a grown woman has any greater right to be free from physical violence than a child does.

Sure, an adult can "walk away" from another adult. But an adult can also place a child in a safe place like a crib, playpen or child-proofed room until the adult is able to proceed without violating the child's body.

And I don't buy the argument that kids engage in more rage-provoking behaviors. Adults commit adultery, develop awful addictions, suffer from mental illness, squander the family's finances, etc. There are many situations in which people become as (or more) enraged at their romantic partners as they become at young, defenseless family members. The only difference? It is illegal to indulge your anger to the point of violence when it comes to an adult. But children do not have that protection in our country (although they do in many).

In the end, family violence is unacceptable whether it is directed at the 25-year-old wife, the 85-year-old father, or the 2-year-old son. I think the analogy of domestic violence toward an adult is a powerful one and it is one I frequently invoke to provoke discussion of violence against young people.

[mollyeilis]

Originally Posted by irinam

Another dense mama here

I definately agree that details are different, but violence is violence is violence. The whole point of comparing violence towards children with violence towards women is to trigger "That's not acceptable!" thought.

As in - if it's not acceptable to hit a grown person, why is it acceptable to hit a child? (NO matter what the circumstances are, true self-defence being a separate category)

Well, if my husband walked up and bit my leg, or smashed his head into my nose, or hauled off and hit my when I wasn't making dinner fast enough, for me, that would be justifiable self-defense (to me and my mind, not talking legally here, LOL) to do whatever I could to stop him (within reason).

But with a kid, it's the same feeling when you're bitten or hit or smashed, but it's being done for vastly different reasons. However, the feeling you have in the exact millisecond of being harmed, even by an infant who was just flailing her head around when she smashed your nose, the feeling inside is the same, your hurt part doesn't know the reasons...

At least that's how I see the difference. And yeah, to me the "you wouldn't hit your partner, why hit your kid" thing has never made 100% sense to me, b/c what happens first is different. My self-defense reflexes do kick in, and I have to control them...they are different situations, b/c I am not harmed by my hubby, but I am harmed by my kiddo! :

[carolhagan]

Originally Posted by peacelovingmama

: I absolutely agree. Sure, adults and children are different. But family violence is unacceptable no matter what the family member's age. I personally see a very strong analogy between domestic violence between adults and between adult and child.

It used to be legal for men to hit their wives for many of the reasons people justify hitting children -- family order, discipline, etc. I simply do not see that a grown woman has any greater right to be free from physical violence than a child does.

Sure, an adult can "walk away" from another adult. But an adult can also place a child in a safe place like a crib, playpen or child-proofed room until the adult is able to proceed without violating the child's body.

And I don't buy the argument that kids engage in more rage-provoking behaviors. Adults commit adultery, develop awful addictions, suffer from mental illness, squander the family's finances, etc. There are many situations in which people become as (or more) enraged at their romantic partners as they become at young, defenseless family members. The only difference? It is illegal to indulge your anger to the point of violence when it comes to an adult. But children do not have that protection in our country (although they do in many).

In the end, family violence is unacceptable whether it is directed at the 25-year-old wife, the 85-year-old father, or the 2-year-old son. I think the analogy of domestic violence toward an adult is a powerful one and it is one I frequently invoke to provoke discussion of violence against young people.

: My thoughts exactly!

[ameliabedelia]

And I don't buy the argument that kids engage in more rage-provoking behaviors. Adults commit adultery, develop awful addictions, suffer from mental illness, squander the family's finances, etc. There are many situations in which people become as (or more) enraged at their romantic partners as they become at young, defenseless family members. The only difference? It is illegal to indulge your anger to the point of violence when it comes to an adult. But children do not have that protection in our country (although they do in many).

Oh, I definitely think kids engage in WAY more rage-provoking behaviors. My husband has never refused to get into the carseat , he has never unbuckled himself from the carseat, he has never hit me, kicked me, pulled my hair, bit my nipple. He has never taken EVERY SINGLE THING from his sister and wanted THAT toy just because sister has it. He has never been totally happily playing and then suddenly want to play with whatever sister has and done this 20 times in 1/2 hour. He has never asked me over and over again if it is time to go to X now, when I have explained 1 million times that we are doing X TOMORROW. He has never refused to leave the playground and run away when it is time to go. He has never thrown a temper tantrum in public. He has never hit and pushed other kids, so frequently that I was homebound and afraid to take him out around other kids, consequently isolating me. He has never dumped out a $10 bottle of organic maple syrup, destroyed a chandelior, broke the electronic windows in the car, ruined my favorite DVD's., etc. I could go on and on.

Besides, you CHOOSE your spouse, and I didn't choose anyone who would be likely to commit adultery, squander finances, do drugs, etc., etc. I choose someone who I am fairly sure (of course you never know if someone will change) would not do those things. You can't choose your kids. And, sometimes you get kids with special needs or behavior problems, or high needs or developmental delays. All these things, can make normal childish behavior even MORE difficult to deal with.

I defintiely agree that violence is wrong no matter what...but there is a HUGE difference between spousal violance and a mother or father who spanks or hits a child on rare occasion when they are at the end of their rope. When I had dd1, I firmly resolved to never spank, hit, slap, etc., etc I am totally against it..but guess what I am human..and I have on occasion hit or spanked or slapped a hand that was pulling my hair and refusing to let go. It was defintiely wrong, it is defintiely something I feel guilty about. But, you can't compare it to spousal abuse. My husband has NEVER pushed my buttons they way my kids have. And, I am responsible for my kids in a way I will never be responsible for my husband. And, my kids are childish (duh, they are children)..but children behavior can be VERY diffuclt to deal with. Especially when I am tired from being up all night, or worried and stressed about something else, or have PMS or sick. It can be really hard to be gentle and patient and loving when I am feeling sick and tired and stressed, kwim?

I love my kids more than anything but they can be DIFFICULT..very, very DIFFICULT.

I defintiely think it does not serve parents well to just clichely say "well, you wouldn't hit your spouse, so don't hit your child" I think everyone HERE on the GD forum believes that hitting children is wrong. We know that. However, we deal with situations with our children EVERYDAY which we will never deal with, with our spouse. My husband is MUCH EASIER to live with than my children are. And, sometimes you CAN'T get away from your kids. In public or a car, you can't put them in a playpen or go in the bathroom by yourself. Sometimes they follow you no matter where you go in the house. Sometimes you really do just need them to listen RIGHT NOW..and they refuse and you feel stuck and helpless and don't know what to do. That is why this forum is so important..so we can know WHAT TO DO WHEN WE DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO. I think parents who have reached the end of their rope need patience and help and support to find gentler ways..not just be told that hitting is wrong.. we all know that.

[mammal_mama]

I think the point here is that all analogies break down somewhere. I think we all agree that it's as wrong to hit our kids as it is to hit our spouses, parents, and so on -- and I think we all agree that, in our roles as parents, we're in continuous, close contact with our kids and we ALSO have responsibilities for our little ones that we don't have for adults. So the analogy comparing spanking to spouse abuse makes us wake up and really think -- but it's more of a thought and conversation starter than it is a real help for figuring out how to live violence-free lives.

As for me, I've found some real help in reading "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk" by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish. Also it helps to just relax and not pressure myself to have it all together and have perfectly-behaved kids who never throw tantrums or embarrass me in public. Once you can feel okay while knowing others are looking at you and your child and thinking, "The kids are in control in that house," you'll feel a freedom beyond anything you imagined before -- the freedom to embrace the journey and learn something new.

So many parents are scared of their kids forming the wrong habits, they can't open themselves at all to any new ideas. Some friends, on learning our first dd was sleeping with us, said, "You're going to regret it! You'll never get her out of your bed." She's six-and-a-half and we still feel no need to get her out of our bed; we love the togetherness ... I feel sad for all those parents who maybe felt an urge to bring Baby to bed but resisted 'cause they just COULDN'T allow any "habits" to form. Early on I realized I couldn't worry-worry-worry constantly about all the potential "habits" that could be formed by this or that decision. I decided to relax and follow my heart; if something resulted in a "bad habit," we'd cross that bridge when we came to it.

I'm finding that dealing with MY mistakes is a lot easier than following everyone else's "rules" about how to have the perfectly-behaved child. At least I can BREATHE. And enjoy my kids a lot more than I would if I lived on tenterhooks, waiting to squelch the next potential bad habit.

[Roxswood]

All adults have incredibly annoying moments though, to my way of thinking, far more so than children. I have been angrier at my spouse than I have EVER been at a child and for not very much as well. He has never done anything dreadful to me to make me feel that way but I can step back and look at my child and KNOW that she is just a child and is doing normal child things and control my feelings over it all.

My husband too has at times had a very hard time not hitting out at me. The main time for him I was taking Clomid tablets before getting pregnant with dd and just could NOT stop yelling at him for tiny things. I was so angry inside and hurt and upset and would wake him up at 3am to yell at him because he left a dirty cup in the sink or something stupid, I also followed him around the house yelling when he tried to get away from me and hid the front door keys so he couldn't leave to get away. Now if he had hit me at that point everyone would have been shouting ABUSE! But the way I was behaving was FAR FAR more challenging to him than anything a child can do. He had NO way of escaping me without being violent towards me or towards our house and possessions and he ended up punching a hole in the door and scaring me so I eventually left him alone, but I did this on a regular basis until I stopped taking the Clomid tablets.

If hitting your spouse occasionally was at all acceptable in our society I know he would have done it then but it isn't, and hitting children shouldn't be either.
If it was publicly declared to be completely unacceptable and became a reportable offence then I'm damn sure more people would think twice.

[Sharlla]

Originally Posted by Ruthla

My point is that hitting kids is NOT the same as violence between adult partners..

You're right, it's a lot worse Children can't just leave their abuser like a spouse could.

[irinam]

Clare, great example!

(Brings back memories of *my* pregnant self )

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Roxswood

If it was publicly declared to be completely unacceptable and became a reportable offence then I'm damn sure more people would think twice.

A reportable offence...I've seen this here before. What legal remedies do you all think would be appropriate for a report of spanking?

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Roxswood

My husband too has at times had a very hard time not hitting out at me. The main time for him I was taking Clomid tablets before getting pregnant with dd and just could NOT stop yelling at him for tiny things. I was so angry inside and hurt and upset and would wake him up at 3am to yell at him because he left a dirty cup in the sink or something stupid, I also followed him around the house yelling when he tried to get away from me and hid the front door keys so he couldn't leave to get away. Now if he had hit me at that point everyone would have been shouting ABUSE! But the way I was behaving was FAR FAR more challenging to him than anything a child can do. He had NO way of escaping me...

Now you see, I may be in the minority, but I actually wouldn't be shouting "abuse" in this situation. When someone deliberately goads someone into anger, then refuses to allow the angered person to remove themselves from the situation, then I'm going to expect the s**t to hit the fan.

What is Clomid? It sounds freaking awful!

[mollyeilis]

clomid helps with ovulation, and can cause enormous moods and mood swings.

Roxswood, your story of Clomid's effects on you sounds like I did when I was on birth control. I stopped after 9 months b/c it was making me insane (and I found out that the boyfriend was *trying* to cheat on me (too drunk to be successful) so I went back to condoms).

That time in my life was actually the reason I did the anger management counseling I mentioned in my first reply, after trying repeatedly to beat up that boyfriend, who was 60 pounds heavier and more than a foot taller than me...ended up with bruises on my wrists b/c he just held my wrists as I struggled... We ended up both blaming ME, so I went into counseling...I was glad to get the "tools" to control my nasty temper, but I haven't been THAT angry since he and I went our separate ways.

Anyway, those extrinsic hormones or hormone regulators/helpers...they can certainly do a number on us, can't they?!!!?

[mommy2abigail]

I do agree with the op, in that kids (for the most part!) annoy, provoke, and anger parents more that the average spouse. However, I believe that violence is violence. I think its just more socially acceptable (unfortunately) to strike out against an annoying child vs. an annoying adult. I can see where a mother at the end of the day, at the end of her rope, would strike out at her child without thinking. BUT we, as adults, have the capability to have more self control than that, and if not, to seek help in dealing with anger issues. And I think spanking, as prescribed in so many awful parenting books, is NOT just a mindless striking of a toddler who bites your nipple. It is a methodical, well thought out, step-by-step ordeal. You are to calm down, send the child to his room to wait, go in, talk about why you have to do this, spank, hug and basically demand that the child show you affection. NOT the same as striking out as a reaction before thinking. I agree, violence is violence is violence. I dont believe anyone, baby, child, adult should be hit, spanked, pushed, shoved, ect. I think that anytime a child is hit or otherwise violated, he is scarred. I do think that much more damage happens when it is a regular occurance, well thought out and methodical. If a mother who is stressed and tired strikes her child in a moment of anger, and immediately apologizes and makes sure her child knows that 'mama was wrong, sometimes mama gets very angry and she needs a time-out to regroup, mama will not do that again, she will keep you safe' ect. I think a child can learn alot from that. (NOT to say we should hit our children to teach them anything) Ok, does any of that make any sense? Hope so.